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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Again, you are placing real world logic into the movie rather than judge the movie on what you are shown. You are arguing for the movie to do tell rather than show. I would argue that the movie shows use that Flint is learning that lesson by realizing what Ben was trying to do via Peter. There is no need to have Peter say it there as that is more tell than show.
    No, Im applying the in-universe logic to the situation. Peter's given no guarantee that Flint is going to go straight. Nothing in Flint's circumstances have changed. He still has a sick daughter he needs money to care for.

    Flint being allowed to go free fits the other Raimi movies where the villains don't get the ending they deserve. Norman dies, and outside of a few people, no one knows he was a murderer and gets to be placed to rest peacefully. Octavius gets to sacrifice himself for the damage he did and everyone acts like he didn't cause mass property destruction and risk the entire city. Harry and Peter end up fighting alongside each other and Harry doesn't go to jail for all the shit he did and gets to die being seen as a "hero."
    I don't think anyone but Peter knows that Octavius ended up sacrificing himself. To the rest of the world he's still the bad guy.


    As for hypothetical questions, they are just evidence of you placing real world logic into the movie. It doesn't matter because what you are saying doesn't happen to our knowledge any more than Flint letting go and choosing to live away from people.
    Again, that's not "real-world" logic. That's Peter's Logic. If Sandman killed again, he would blame himself because he let Marko go.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Sandman is roughly ten times stronger than Spidey. There really isn't a way to hold him. And being immortal only adds to the problem. The fact is, there are times when you can't power your way through. Talking was the best option.
    There's plenty of ways of holding him. Spider-Man has beaten Sandman by using a shop vac.

    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-09-20 at 03:59 PM.

  2. #342
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    No, Im applying the in-universe logic to the situation. Peter's given no guarantee that Flint is going to go straight. Nothing in Flint's circumstances have changed. He still has a sick daughter he needs money to care for.

    Again, that's not "real-world" logic. That's Peter's Logic. If Sandman killed again, he would blame himself because he let Marko go.
    Again, despite your insistence to the contrary, you are using real world logic to judge the movie.

    Even granting you that Peter would "blame himself", that's not relevant to the movie as you are judging a completely hypothetical situation you made up to justify why the movie should have been different. That is by its very nature using real world logic to judge the movie.

    Your hypothetical situation did not happen in the movie. Therefore, the possibility it could happen is irrelevant.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Again, despite your insistence to the contrary, you are using real world logic to judge the movie.

    Even granting you that Peter would "blame himself", that's not relevant to the movie as you are judging a completely hypothetical situation you made up to justify why the movie should have been different. That is by its very nature using real world logic to judge the movie.
    No, I'm using how Peter would think through the situation. By letting a killer go free he's risking another Uncle Ben type incident. That's not "real world logic". That's me understanding the character better than the writers.

    Your hypothetical situation did not happen in the movie. Therefore, the possibility it could happen is irrelevant.
    It's very relevant...because it's how Peter thinks.

  4. #344
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    No, I'm using how Peter would think through the situation. By letting a killer go free he's risking another Uncle Ben type incident.



    It's very relevant...because it's how Peter thinks.
    Which is using Real World arguments and logic to judge the movie.

    Hey, this thing that doesn't happen in the movie would be bad therefore the scene makes no sense.

    You are using real world logic period. This isn't a debatable point.

    You are literally ignoring the lessons Peter learned throughout the trilogy, that sometimes you have to let the bad guy go because it is the right thing to do. You don't have to like it, but you are just arguing real world stuff and claiming you aren't. Essentially, you are saying Peter should have remained Spider-man 1 Peter throughout the entire Trilogy and learned nothing more.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-09-20 at 04:11 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Not sure what that has to do with what I said...but, OK.

    ...are you trying to say, if the studio doesn't want you to be surprised, then there's no way you could possibly have any self control to not try to find out all the things?

    I guess I'm not really sure what your point is.
    If they wanted people to wait to be surprised they wouldn’t be letting Andrew talk about this shit on TV constantly. Especially with a show like Fallon that literally gets permission from Sony before they ever ask the question. People “waiting and being surprised” when these leaks are getting big talk show coverage is basically telling them to avoid the internet from last June to the release of the film.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Which is using Real World arguments and logic to judge the movie.

    Hey, this thing that doesn't happen in the movie would be bad therefore the scene makes no sense.

    You are using real world logic period. This isn't a debatable point.
    Again, that is not "real world" logic. That's the logic of the character in the fictional world.

    Peter knows, first hand, what the consequences can be for letting a criminal go free. It's the entire basis of the character.

    If Uncle Ben never died...Peter would never have become a Super-Hero. At best, he'd be a douche-bag celebrity. At worst, he'd become a Super-villain himself.

    Here's Peter in his first appearance...before he gets Spider-Powers



    And here's him after he creates his webshooters.... still before Ben is killed.



    He's shallow, he's arrogant, he's vindictive.

    That's a Super-Villain in the making.

    But Uncle Ben dies because he let a criminal he could have stopped go free...and he takes a hard turn.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-09-20 at 04:29 PM.

  7. #347
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Again, that is not "real world" logic. That's the logic of the character in the fictional world.

    Peter knows, first hand, what the consequences can be for letting a criminal go free.
    And Peter knows, first hand, the power of a second chance.

    You making up hypothetical situation that could possible happen that the movie shows zero inclination of happening to justify why a scene is bad is the very definition of using real world logic to judge the movie. Yes, in the real world, letting a criminal go is a bad thing because they have a high likelihood of repeating the behavior. You are using real world logic while denying you are using real world logic.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    And Peter knows, first hand, the power of a second chance.

    You making up hypothetical situation that could possible happen that the movie shows zero inclination of happening to justify why a scene is bad is the very definition of using real world logic to judge the movie. Yes, in the real world, letting a criminal go is a bad thing because they have a high likelihood of repeating the behavior. You are using real world logic while denying you are using real world logic.
    It's not a "hypothetical situation"...it's literally how he thinks.

    I'm not saying he should beat Marko to death. I'm saying he should convince him to turn himself in.

    Yeah, Peter believes in second chances... what did Marko do to earn one?
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-09-20 at 04:38 PM.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    There's plenty of ways of holding him. Spider-Man has beaten Sandman by using a shop vac.
    No. (That old jokey stuff reminds me of Molecule Man, and how powerful he really was.)
    Last edited by Shadowferal; 2021-09-20 at 04:47 PM.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    No. And Sandman powered his way. (That old jokey stuff reminds me of Molecule Man, and how powerful he really was.)
    "no" what?

    He got sucked into a vaccuum cleaner and Spidey handed him to the police. "jokey" or not....that's canon.

    Spider-Man has beaten Sandman dozens of times now. And so have others.

    Like Doc Ock:



    He's powerful...but he's not unbeatable.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    "no" what? He got sucked into a vaccuum cleaner and Spidey handed him to the police. "jokey" or not....that's canon.
    The pic above is canon too.
    But applying logic to comics is probably a bad idea. I mean Spidey beat Firelord too. But "we" know the behind the scene talk, and a combination of luck and Pyreus' arrogance is what really beat him.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The pic above is canon too.
    But applying logic to comics is probably a bad idea. I mean Spidey beat Firelord too. But "we" know the behind the scene talk, and a combination of luck and Pyreus' arrogance is what really beat him.
    It’s fiction. Having the hero defeat seemingly insurmountable odds is how you build tension while delivering a happy ending.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The pic above is canon too.
    But applying logic to comics is probably a bad idea. I mean Spidey beat Firelord too. But "we" know the behind the scene talk, and a combination of luck and Pyreus' arrogance is what really beat him.
    Sure. But Spidey's got a proven track record of beating people above his weight class. Rhino, Juggernaut, etc.

    And yeah, while Firelord's arrogance played a role... Spidey just was not holding back at all in that fight. Spider-Man hardly ever uses his full strength when he's fighting. And Spider-Man gets really fucking strong when he needs to. He's like the Hulk....only it isn't really anger that makes him stronger...it's desperation.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-09-20 at 05:09 PM.

  14. #354
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    It's not a "hypothetical situation"...it's literally how he thinks.

    I'm not saying he should beat Marko to death. I'm saying he should convince him to turn himself in.

    Yeah, Peter believes in second chances... what did Marko do to earn one?
    ... I give up. You have officially broken my desire to continue a discussion with you because it is clear you do not understand you are arguing a hypothetical situation.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    It’s fiction. Having the hero defeat seemingly insurmountable odds is how you build tension while delivering a happy ending.
    Marvel actually began poking fun at itself. Beginning with "Wolverine vs Galactus." - - - Updated - - -
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Sure. But Spidey's got a proven track record of beating people above his weight class. Rhino, Juggernaut, etc. And yeah, while Firelord's arrogance played a role. Spidey just was not holding back at all in that fight. Spider-Man hardly ever uses his full strength when he's fighting. And Spider-Man gets really fucking strong when he needs to.
    That's just the writers...had they let Firelord cut loose ... Nyc would have been ashes.

    You seem to really want Spidey to be unbeatable. But that's not the case. His strength level at 10 tons with a spidey sense enhancing his reflexes (fastest reflexes under nirmal conditions) combined with his agility make him the most powerful in his class. But that class doesn't go very far.
    Last edited by Shadowferal; 2021-09-20 at 05:12 PM.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Was it? Are you an expert on the symbiote now? Tell me, how many Spider-Man comics have you read where Peter had the symbiote? Because I've read them all...and I don't recall the symbiote ever telling Peter he needed to learn how to dance to humilate his ex.



    Forgiving someone does not mean letting them go free. He doesn't have to kill Sandman...but he's still a dangerous criminal...as shown by him trying to kill him and Harry a few moments earlier.
    You're definitely not up to date on the symbiotes then. Hell they LITERALLY just had a huge event in the comics. They are sentient.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    ... I give up. You have officially broken my desire to continue a discussion with you because it is clear you do not understand you are arguing a hypothetical situation.
    A hypothetical situation that the character would have considered himself before letting Sandman go.

    But I agree...we are obviously never going to see eye to eye here...best to stop now.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    You're definitely not up to date on the symbiotes then. Hell they LITERALLY just had a huge event in the comics. They are sentient.
    I thought they were supposed to be an entire race... (Not sure...this was after I quit comics. And I never liked Venom to begin with anyway)

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Marvel actually began poking fun at itself. Beginning with "Wolverine vs Galactus." - - - Updated - - - That's just the writers...had they let Firelord cut loose ... Nyc would have been ashes.
    It's ALWAYS the writers.

    The great Stan Lee:



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    You're definitely not up to date on the symbiotes then. Hell they LITERALLY just had a huge event in the comics. They are sentient.
    I never said they weren't sentient. They've always been sentient in the comics. Differing levels of sentience depending on which origin the writers were going with at the time... but the symbiote has always had it's own agency. When Peter first rejected it...it wanted him back. When Peter tried to kill it...it wanted vengeance...but it also still wanted Peter back. Peter's even used his sexy body to trick the symbiote:



    And yeah, I've read King in Black. Also a couple of other times they've retconned the Symbiotes origins.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I thought they were supposed to be an entire race... (Not sure...this was after I quit comics. And I never liked Venom to begin with anyway)
    THey've had a few different origins....I don't think any of them really directly contradict the others...they just push back farther in time with every origin. So it's kind of like one writer said "They're like this" and the next writer is like "But before that they were this" and so on.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-09-20 at 05:29 PM.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    It's ALWAYS the writers.

    The great Stan Lee:



    - - - Updated - - -



    I never said they weren't sentient. They've always been sentient in the comics. Differing levels of sentience depending on which origin the writers were going with at the time... but the symbiote has always had it's own agency. When Peter first rejected it...it wanted him back. When Peter tried to kill it...it wanted vengeance...but it also still wanted Peter back. Peter's even used his sexy body to trick the symbiote:



    And yeah, I've read King in Black. Also a couple of other times they've retconned the Symbiotes origins.

    - - - Updated - - -



    THey've had a few different origins....I don't think any of them really directly contradict the others...they just push back farther in time with every origin. So it's kind of like one writer said "They're like this" and the next writer is like "But before that they were this" and so on.
    You insinuated that the venom symbiote doesn't have wants and desires that influence the wearer. It's not strictly impacting the existing emotions. The symbiotes(except ones that bond at a cellular level like Carnage) are still separate entities.

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