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  1. #281
    The Lightbringer Littleraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I hear that complain often but I think this is due to people just not understanding how the AoE zones work in this game. They aren't tied to the visual warning.
    They are tied to cast-bars 99,5% of the time with very few exceptions.
    I'm not saying this to put blame on you or anything, I'm saying it because people actually don't know this most of the time (or they know but still pretend it's not their own fault)

    1. Boss starts a cast: "Big blob of death"
    2. A red warning circle appears below your feet.
    3. The boss finished the cast: "Big blob of death"
    4. You step out of the zone.
    5. The red warning circle disappears now
    6. The boss does the spell animation for "Big blob of death"
    7. You get hit because you didn't leave the circle before the boss finished the cast (step 3), even though you were already outside before the circle disappeared (Step 4).

    This means you can actually run *into* the circles/visual effects (step 5+6) and get hit by the abilities on your screen, but you won't actually take any damage because you were outside the effect before step 3 occured. The server "snapshots" your position by the end of the cast, not by the end of the ability or by the time the circle disappears.


    I'm saying 99,5% of the time, because there is actually a very small amount of boss-abilities that work differently. The snake/straight-line mechanic in E10S for example. That AoE zone is actually of the "expanding" type and you only get hit if the void/ability touches you, which means you can stand IN the red-circle. Mechanics like these actually proof that the "hit-detection" (or whatever you want to call it) is pretty decent in this game and net-code works fine for the purpose of raiding.

    I have no idea how crappy the servers feel to play on when you are living in NZ or something, but in Europe, everytime I hear someone blaming and cursing and swearing on their mothers grave that they "were already outside" are just flat out lying basically pretty much always. Especially if it's comming out of nowhere and that person didn't complain about "skill-delay" or anything beforehand.
    You can actually really tell if you are lagging or having connection issues in this games.

    Skills start to get delayed feedback, the cast bar starts very late, you start seeing character animations but no damage numbers etc. etc.
    If that happens and you get hit by AoE, yes, it's the server/your connection is at fault. If you can play just fine and get by AoE, it's the player.
    Makes sense and I have seen "actual" lag where everything is delayed by 2 or more seconds so I get it. Doesn't make it any less frustrating though especially on some of the more busy fights especially when the telegraph is for an instant cast. And sure it is on the player at that point to be paying attention and act accordingly but it still sucks to think you were on top of it to only still get hit or killed. Been seeing it a lot in Delubrum and Southern Front lately.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Littleraven View Post
    Makes sense and I have seen "actual" lag where everything is delayed by 2 or more seconds so I get it. Doesn't make it any less frustrating though especially on some of the more busy fights especially when the telegraph is for an instant cast. And sure it is on the player at that point to be paying attention and act accordingly but it still sucks to think you were on top of it to only still get hit or killed. Been seeing it a lot in Delubrum and Southern Front lately.
    If you have actual lags even when you do skills etc. I wouldn't blame you for getting hit, even if you pay attention.
    Because usually, the warning circles also appear much later on your screen than usual whenever that happens.

    If you have these issues often, I'd recommend a VPN, like Mudfish.
    In Germany, FFXIV is nearly not possible to be played without it because the routing is horrible. (Even though the Servers are in Frankfurt)
    3€ get you enough bandwith for like multiple years of actual in-game time.
    I think I bought 3€ worth of bandwidth when Stormblood raiding started, and I still have 2,30€ left.

    Your lags might be related to routing issues too, and a gaming VPN like Mudfish (no advertising intended) - will bypass that most likely.
    It's only tracking your actual game traffic, so you can leave it on at all times (if you so wish) and not waste bandwidth by downloading videos or whatever.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-01 at 04:05 PM.

  3. #283
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I hear that complain often but I think this is due to people just not understanding how the AoE zones work in this game. They aren't tied to the visual warning.
    They are tied to cast-bars 99,5% of the time with very few exceptions.
    The general rule is: be out of the yellow circle before it disappears (not before the actual visual effect of the AoE hits) and you are safe.
    That applies to 99.9% of all telegraphs. The only time in which that does not work is when the server throws a hissy-fit. Which it sometimes does, stop pretending otherwise and don't dare calling me a liar. I can see the difference between me reacting too slow and the server trolling me and I have no problem admitting it if I am too slow.

    Keep in mind that there is a general delay of about 500ms - 1s (depending on server mood) on everything you see client side.
    Most easily noticed when you dispel a stacking debuff, like they sometimes happen in 24man raids, heal a nearly dead player etc.

    So: be at least 500ms out of the AoE telegraph before it disappears.

  4. #284
    True final fantasy 14 has some problems but its definitely not gamebreaking. Most people complain about that the first lvl 50 story is slow or that they dont want to do main story where you interract with characters or that the combat is slow or that they dont like loading screens. But they compare it with WoW which is more of a mmo now. Those who complain just dont like a game thats a MMORPG with an emphases on the RPG.

    The main story to lvl 50 pre patch was in my opinion a hell of a nice experience. Becoming lvl 50 was an accomplishment and you truly started to bond with the character BECAUSE of the long mainquest, after all it is also a RPG. If you write on your game RPG, then the game has to deliver a wonderfull story where you bond with certain characters and the story is consistent. Bonding with characters doesnt mean that you kill 50 boars WoW style, no, it means good dialogue, character development, you being involved with their development and so on. And yes, a quest where you run after a character who is on its knees mentally, does help. People should stop comparing FF14 with WoW and say that FF14 is slow on story and combat. If you ask me, WoW went full retard with the story since MoP, and I used to be a diehard WoW lore fanatic, always rereading the books and so on. You shouldnt compare them with eachother. To me FF14 is a true MMORPG, there are no alpha and beta or public server, yet they ace it every single time with their boss encounters and class combat and tuning of the gear.

    Loading screens, yeah i get it, but who keeps teleporting 15 times in 10minutes. Maybe 2 times in a minute, but thats all and it might be 4 seconds.

    Yes, the combat is slow, but only at the beginning since everything is tuned for end lvl. lvl 80 combat is more dynamic and fun with its offgc abilities/spells, you should try to execute the opener and the 1 minute rotation flawlesly during a savage boss without getting hit, trust me, its hard.

    The only downside that I can find on FF14 is definitely the passive agressive community that sometimes pops up. Annoying as hell, I would rather want that person to call me names than be passive agressive and try to act like an adult. Plus the sheer amount of things that you can do earn gil or lvl faster mainjob/alt is basically hidden, you really need a friend who knows a shortcut.

    All in All, its a really good game, a game worthy to be called a triple A MMORPG. They have thought about every single detail and you can see their passion in their work. But like in any MMORPG, if you are a new player YOU NEED FRIENDS TO ENJOY IT!!!!!! I played alone FF14 as a new player, yes it was annoying that I felt that it was going slow, cuz i didnt know a damn thing about the game, but i definitely enjoyed the amount of effort they had put into the lore and character development.

  5. #285
    The cast time/animation/damage event desync is definitely my biggest turn off. Even though it's not "lag", having the cast bar and animations completely desynced breaks the expectation that just about every other game sets and feels terrible. It's not at all a smooth experience to get hit by a frontal cleave ability when you've been behind a monster for half a second, regardless of being able to play around it by not looking at the game but the cast bar instead. Ground/AOE telegraphs often would imply a synchronization with cast time based on the telegraph's visual progression that was also often not the case, adding to the pile of visual desyncs with combat that ultimately turned me away from the game. The game is so beautiful, it sucks that you feel compelled to stare at a UI element instead of looking at the game world for something so standard in games dating back decades.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Keep in mind that there is a general delay of about 500ms - 1s (depending on server mood) on everything you see client side.
    Most easily noticed when you dispel a stacking debuff, like they sometimes happen in 24man raids, heal a nearly dead player etc.

    So: be at least 500ms out of the AoE telegraph before it disappears.
    It was stated by Yoshi-P himself that the server doesn't actually update character locations constantly, it's only every 300ms...which is even more frustrating because it's literally hardcoded. But it also updates character positions any time they use an ability, so if you step out and immediately hit a skill, doesn't even matter which one it is because it forces the server to do a position check before it gets used, it ensures the server recognizes your position.

    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ev-Response%29

    As you said though, sometimes the server just has a fit and you seen delays and lag and whatnot which just exacerbates this issue, but the forced positioning check by using an ability is still a thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerio View Post
    The cast time/animation/damage event desync is definitely my biggest turn off. Even though it's not "lag", having the cast bar and animations completely desynced breaks the expectation that just about every other game sets and feels terrible. It's not at all a smooth experience to get hit by a frontal cleave ability when you've been behind a monster for half a second, regardless of being able to play around it by not looking at the game but the cast bar instead. Ground/AOE telegraphs often would imply a synchronization with cast time based on the telegraph's visual progression that was also often not the case, adding to the pile of visual desyncs with combat that ultimately turned me away from the game. The game is so beautiful, it sucks that you feel compelled to stare at a UI element instead of looking at the game world for something so standard in games dating back decades.
    As @Granyala said, the vast majority of the time it does coincide with the visual animation on the screen. The exceptions to this are when: 1) you have a bad internet connection and your latency is high or 2) the server is having a fit which is pretty rare.

    With that said, it's obviously hard to distinguish which is which or to predict when one might happen in the middle of the fight. Just trying to say that the game isn't inherently designed to have the cast bar and animation to be unsynced, it's just an artifact of it being an online game with an unoptimized net code. Which doesn't really make it better...

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    The general rule is: be out of the yellow circle before it disappears (not before the actual visual effect of the AoE hits) and you are safe.
    That applies to 99.9% of all telegraphs. The only time in which that does not work is when the server throws a hissy-fit. Which it sometimes does, stop pretending otherwise and don't dare calling me a liar. I can see the difference between me reacting too slow and the server trolling me and I have no problem admitting it if I am too slow.

    Keep in mind that there is a general delay of about 500ms - 1s (depending on server mood) on everything you see client side.
    Most easily noticed when you dispel a stacking debuff, like they sometimes happen in 24man raids, heal a nearly dead player etc.

    So: be at least 500ms out of the AoE telegraph before it disappears.
    Again, if you have these issues, consider a VPN.
    I don't have these issues and immediatly "feel" when they'd show up.
    When I do feel it, I use a VPN and it's gone.
    It's more related to routing than it is to actual server perfomance or the frequncy it updates positions.

    Can't be a coincidence that even though I raid once-twice a week I never actually have this issue and know when and IF I'm about to get hit and when not, but as I mentioned, I have no idea how the connection is when you live in Australia or something.
    In my opinion it's the most abused excuse ever.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-01 at 03:40 PM.

  8. #288
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Again, if you have these issues, consider a VPN.
    I don't have these issues and immediatly "feel" when they'd show up.
    Or maybe you are simply not overly sensitive to it or reason around it with "snapshotting" etc, blah. Fact is: the damage should not happen when the telegraph goes away, the damage should happen, when the actual bomb visual hits. Because that's when .. you know... the bomb actually explodes. Being able to run in there because the telegraph is gone and you know that the bomb already exploded server side ... yeah I agree with @Neiro. It's weird.

    Kinda American-die-hard-action-hero™ cool that Kitty just stands there not caring when the world goes up in flames but also ... weird.

    VPN just for one game? I would consider it if it was a crippling issue but after so many years, outside of the occasional hissy fit I am used to pre-planning and moving accordingly. On top of that: I do not believe that a VPN would fix the underlying issue.

    Now the actual lags that happen since the Shadowbringers pre-patch, even though it has gotten a lot better in the last few months, THOSE were a killer (I had up to 10s of frozen chars/bosses etc) and super annoying. One of the reasons why I stopped raiding savage because I felt like a klutz.

  9. #289
    i've mentioned some of my issues earlier in the thread but my biggest issue is there is no wow factor for me. nothing that draws me in and makes me want to sink dozens of hours into it. while some complain about the cartoony graphics of wow, that is one of the reasons i kept playing all these years. ff14 looks rather generic in art and spell effects. it has a lot of things i wish wow would add such as having one character being able to play every class but that just isn't enough.

    valheim got me to sink 10 hours JUST into base building. the building system made me get creative with structure placement.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Or maybe you are simply not overly sensitive to it or reason around it with "snapshotting" etc, blah. Fact is: the damage should not happen when the telegraph goes away, the damage should happen, when the actual bomb visual hits. Because that's when .. you know... the bomb actually explodes. Being able to run in there because the telegraph is gone and you know that the bomb already exploded server side ... yeah I agree with @Neiro. It's weird.

    Kinda American-die-hard-action-hero™ cool that Kitty just stands there not caring when the world goes up in flames but also ... weird.

    VPN just for one game? I would consider it if it was a crippling issue but after so many years, outside of the occasional hissy fit I am used to pre-planning and moving accordingly. On top of that: I do not believe that a VPN would fix the underlying issue.

    Now the actual lags that happen since the Shadowbringers pre-patch, even though it has gotten a lot better in the last few months, THOSE were a killer (I had up to 10s of frozen chars/bosses etc) and super annoying. One of the reasons why I stopped raiding savage because I felt like a klutz.
    It doesn't matter how it "feels", that was never part of my point.
    My point is that the server snapshots your position at the end of a cast and that's where your position matters and it has nothing to do with lag when most players complain about that.

    And why not a VPN for one game.
    You can use it for other games too, it costs like 50cents a *year* and it's not like you have to install it and wait 20 hours every time you log in before it starts working or whatever. The fake-queue you have to suffer through each time you log in FFXIV takes longer than starting your VPN.
    You basically log into a program and it's ready to go. You probably don't realize how it would help you in other games because of that mindset.

    Considering you don't play savage because of that, I'd say the 0,50€ is a sound investment every year. Compared to the 13€ you pay each month while losing out on a significant portion of the content

    just my take on this.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-01 at 04:03 PM.

  11. #291
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You basically log into a program and it's ready to go. You probably don't realize how it would help you in other games because of that mindset.

    Considering you don't play savage because of that, I'd say the 0,50€ is a sound investment every year.
    I never had problems like that or anything close to that in WoW and a host of other MMOs/online games, so no: other games are not suffering.
    It's entirely an FF-XIV issue.

    If I wanted to raid savage, I'd agree with you but after 10years of raiding in multiple MMOs I'm simply too burned out of the playstyle to ever again care about it. It's okay, I had a great run and lots of fond memories.

    I'm a retiree now, watching them youngsters head out into danger while knitting in my rocking chair.

    BTW: you can also see the issue when you move -> stop -> immediately start casting. 75% chance your cast gets interrupted because the server thinks you are still moving. Or the other way around, start moving at 75% of your cast and it will get through no problemo.
    Good luck trying that in WoW. In fact that habit bit me in the arse quite a bit when I started WoW back up.

  12. #292
    I tried FF14 a few times over the years.



    First time was the launch of ARR. Played it a few months. It was pretty fun but a few glaring problems were A) Massive bot infestation and B) The raids were wayyy too easy.


    Tried it again when heavensward came out. Didn't play more than a week or two. The combat somehow felt even slower and I just couldn't get into the game at all.



    Tried it again when stormblood came out. I was super hyped for Samurai. Leveled up a new character all the way from 1 to play with my brother on a new server. Leveling up to 50 (I think that was the cap?) wasn't too bad. but being forced to grind out all of the boring ass MSQ content was a complete drag. I finally did unlock samurai but I was soooo bored needing to level back up I quit before I even got to see actual new content from Stormblood.


    Imagine if leveling up a new character in WoW forced you to play through every zone of each expansion. Such a ridiculously bad system. Even if they change it at some point ill never play this game again.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post

    BTW: you can also see the issue when you move -> stop -> immediately start casting. 75% chance your cast gets interrupted because the server thinks you are still moving. Or the other way around, start moving at 75% of your cast and it will get through no problemo.
    I don't have this issue. (the "double interrupt" that is)
    I think this is your ping.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-01 at 07:05 PM.

  14. #294
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I don't have this issue. (the "double interrupt" that is)
    I think this is your ping.
    Doubtful. After all, if it were my Internet connection, I would have the same issues in other online games.
    It's basically the same effect as if you cast a DoT and immediately cast bane (I think was the name) after it as a SMN, if you are too quick, the server does not realize that the DoT is applied and calculated the damage incorrectly/didn't spread the DoT.

    I measured my ping back in the days of eld (before the datacenter move) and got some 50ms. So, the actual ping was not that much different from what I got in WoW.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Fact is: the damage should not happen when the telegraph goes away, the damage should happen, when the actual bomb visual hits. Because that's when .. you know... the bomb actually explodes. Being able to run in there because the telegraph is gone and you know that the bomb already exploded server side ... yeah I agree with Neiro. It's weird.
    This so much. I know it's working as intended but it's absolutely counter-intuitive and feels *really* off, I haven't seen it done this way in any other game and don't quite understand why would you even make it so in the first place. Very bad design imo.

  16. #296
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twen View Post
    This so much. I know it's working as intended but it's absolutely counter-intuitive and feels *really* off, I haven't seen it done this way in any other game and don't quite understand why would you even make it so in the first place. Very bad design imo.
    As Crazy said: some damage animations are super long in this game, so it is kinda random when the damage tick comes in anyway.
    Probably a design conflict, given the fact that Final Fantasy stems from turn based RPGs. They wanted to keep the flashy, sometimes iconic animations but still had to give players freedom of movement.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Doubtful. After all, if it were my Internet connection, I would have the same issues in other online games.
    It's basically the same effect as if you cast a DoT and immediately cast bane (I think was the name) after it as a SMN, if you are too quick, the server does not realize that the DoT is applied and calculated the damage incorrectly/didn't spread the DoT.

    I measured my ping back in the days of eld (before the datacenter move) and got some 50ms. So, the actual ping was not that much different from what I got in WoW.
    Hmm, I'm actually pretty sure it's your ping, because that's an issue I had in ARR before they moved the datacenter (from NA to Europe? Can't quite remember what exactly they did... or did I move to Shiva because it's the EU datacenter?) where I had a much worse ping.
    I can cancel and start again immediatly whenever I want now. Just like in WoW.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-02 at 08:21 AM.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Hmm, I'm actually pretty sure it's your ping, because that's an issue I had in ARR before they moved the datacenter (from NA to Europe? Can't quite remember what exactly they did... or did I move to Shiva because it's the EU datacenter?) where I had a much worse ping.
    I can cancel and start again immediatly whenever I want now. Just like in WoW.
    Isn't server tick 300ms, which has nothing to do with connection? I've never had trouble moving when castbar is at 0.3s and still finishing the cast.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Isn't server tick 300ms, which has nothing to do with connection? I've never had trouble moving when castbar is at 0.3s and still finishing the cast.
    No, the other thing he said - interrupting your cast with movement, and wanting to cast again will interrupt your cast a second time because the server supposedly thinks you are moving.
    Slide casting still works for me too, but I have no issues with unwanted interrupts, but I do remember having them in ARR.
    It probably has something to do with what Katchii wrote.

    Does it even make sense to work like that? I really don't know.
    Since server tick intervals are strict, but your inputs are not, you'd get cast-interrupts every now and then if you slide cast at 0,3s.

    for example, the server movement checks are at:

    0,3-0,6-0,9-1,2-1,5-1,8-2,1

    You start your 1,5s cast at 0,5

    You'd start slidecasting at 1,7 - your cast would end at 2.0
    Server sees at 1,8s that you are moving and will interrupt your cast... but we kinda know that it doesn't. No one would slide cast if it's so "random".
    We also know that the server doesn't align your cast-times to the server ticks, because that would end up in super awkward cast times ,delays, and inconsistent casting times.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-02 at 09:44 AM.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    No, the other thing he said - interrupting your cast with movement, and wanting to cast again will interrupt your cast a second time because the server supposedly thinks you are moving.
    Slide casting still works for me too, but I have no issues with unwanted interrupts, but I do remember having them in ARR.
    It probably has something to do with what Katchii wrote.

    Does it even make sense to work like that? I really don't know.
    Since server tick intervals are strict, but your inputs are not, you'd get cast-interrupts every now and then if you slide cast at 0,3s.

    for example, the server movement checks are at:

    0,3-0,6-0,9-1,2-1,5-1,8-2,1

    You start your 1,5s cast at 0,5

    You'd start slidecasting at 1,7 - your cast would end at 2.0
    Server sees at 1,8s that you are moving and will interrupt your cast... but we kinda know that it doesn't. No one would slide cast if it's so "random".
    We also know that the server doesn't align your cast-times to the server ticks, because that would end up in super awkward cast times ,delays, and inconsistent casting times.
    I think I've had this happen to me once or twice in Shadowbringers, but that's probably either server overload or lag as you said. The game was actually lagging terribly for me throughout 2020 and was almost unplayable in August when 5.3 landed with constant disconnects or lag spikes up to 10 seconds.

    Your server tick explanation makes sense, but I think there's a factor you forgot: client-server synchronization and how network code deals with unavoidable lag. There's probably some leeway specifically for these cases and it's the reason for slidecasting.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

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