What problems do you have with Final Fantasy 14?

[Echo of Soul]

I dunno, I play on NA legacy server that's always full too, and aside from few passing exceptions I haven't really witnessed toxicity.

Well a lot of the time people will lie and say that the FFXIV community is toxic just to make it look just as awful as WoW. Sometimes they're the ones causing the toxicity or are even the toxic ones themselves but through a warped sense of reality they feel that everyone else is toxic.

The common experience is a good one at the casual level. I have myself encountered two toxic people total and I started in Heavensward on Odin EU. In WoW I encountered like two toxic players per day and that was on a good day.

[Leyre]

Tataru is sad, and that make me sad

Also, killing a character that was too good for the plot its bad writing, just saying, RIP Moenbryda, you were too good for the story

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Moenbryda served her purpose as being fodder to amp up the stakes. I wouldn't call that bad writing. I'd say that bad writing would be obvious fodder characters who don't bite it when they are supposed to, diminishing the stakes and acting as dead weight in the plot going forward.

[Leyre]

Moenbryda served her purpose as being fodder to amp up the stakes. I wouldn't call that bad writing. I'd say that bad writing would be obvious fodder characters who don't bite it when they are supposed to, diminishing the stakes and acting as dead weight in the plot going forward.

Its bad writing when princess peach its literally standing there, doing absolutely nothing (other than getting kidnapped) and she does, you guess it, nothing

[Inoculate]

I tried it again after taking a break in ARR and it's been a very fun month. Very much a jarring experience and you feel overwhelming but people have been super helpful and kind to me, even if I queue up as a tank and don't know fights and say as much. I don't get the toxic community thing at all.

It was super overwhelming to come back though, they should add a reintroduction chapter to get you reacquainted with the various systems.

[Zyrinx]

I really really hate the look and feel of the UI.

Maybe it's 17 years playing wow, but the UI and macro system makes interacting with the game so much better. All my keybinds are shift/none macros. Easy.

Also, and this is not just a FF problem, but click to heal like Vuhdo should be standard, or at the least, available.i bailed on LOTRO for this reason, wanted to play minstrel but the heal UI doesn't work for me

[Necromantic]

even if I queue up as a tank and don't know fights and say as much. I don't get the toxic community thing at all.

It's hit/miss depending on where you go. I've browsed this forum here for FFXIV for a long time and it'll go through spurts where people here are pretty cool and have genuine discussions and it's gone through where people here are as nasty as they are on the subreddit. A couple or so years ago, there was a guy in here who frequently harassed other posters, berated them, etc and reporting him did nothing. Fast forward, I see a different mod and the guy is banned. Not sure if it's coincidence or not.

But as far as the subreddit goes, it's worse than the official forums for berating new players or people who have unique playstyles. Gamers who are objective and understand that not everyone plays video games all day long or are naturally awesome at them are uncommon.

People are far more likely to be themselves (even if it's just being nasty) when there is little to no accountability. While not perfect, this place holds people accountable (seems to a much greater degree lately) and in-game GMs as well. Places where people are nearly given a license to behave in a certain way, one can expect that many will take advantage of that. It's rather unfortunate and paints a bad picture for many people. And for those who are mixed in with that crowd and genuinely want to help, it's rather embarrassing.

[Wangming]

Its bad writing when princess peach its literally standing there, doing absolutely nothing (other than getting kidnapped) and she does, you guess it, nothing

But that is not a Moenbryda problem. That is a Minfilia problem. She was a bland and useless character, but thankfully she is so dead not even a necromancer can bring her back now.

It was super overwhelming to come back though, they should add a reintroduction chapter to get you reacquainted with the various systems.

Well you do get access to the Novice Network. In my experience there are nice people there and loved all the discussions when I was a returner. I kinda miss it now that I'm back at full operational capacity.

- - - Updated - - -

People are far more likely to be themselves (even if it's just being nasty) when there is little to no accountability. While not perfect, this place holds people accountable (seems to a much greater degree lately) and in-game GMs as well. Places where people are nearly given a license to behave in a certain way, one can expect that many will take advantage of that. It's rather unfortunate and paints a bad picture for many people. And for those who are mixed in with that crowd and genuinely want to help, it's rather embarrassing.

That's true. But whose fault is that? The GM-s can't just spy on twitch and ban people who are jerks outside of game. FFXIV is growing so we have all sorts of people.
I always believe when people say they met jerks ingame. Or people who are super defensive and can't accept criticism of the game. Or the opposite who whine about everything. It can totally happen. But me personally? In game, on youtube, on discord, even on Twitch 97% I come across nice people.

Now I will say I also met the nicest people in WoW. In Classic PTR to be specific. But for me the majority was not like that. Maybe I was lucky with the FFXIV community and unlucky as WoW. I don't know. But personally I can't agree with the "FFXIV is just as toxic" argument. The worst I read on the subject was on youtube saying something along the line of: "FFXIV is just as toxic, but it is a defensive feminine toxicity". Now what kind of fucked up sexist shit is that?

[Delever]

It's hit/miss depending on where you go. I've browsed this forum here for FFXIV for a long time and it'll go through spurts where people here are pretty cool and have genuine discussions and it's gone through where people here are as nasty as they are on the subreddit. A couple or so years ago, there was a guy in here who frequently harassed other posters, berated them, etc and reporting him did nothing. Fast forward, I see a different mod and the guy is banned. Not sure if it's coincidence or not.

But as far as the subreddit goes, it's worse than the official forums for berating new players or people who have unique playstyles. Gamers who are objective and understand that not everyone plays video games all day long or are naturally awesome at them are uncommon.

People are far more likely to be themselves (even if it's just being nasty) when there is little to no accountability. While not perfect, this place holds people accountable (seems to a much greater degree lately) and in-game GMs as well. Places where people are nearly given a license to behave in a certain way, one can expect that many will take advantage of that. It's rather unfortunate and paints a bad picture for many people. And for those who are mixed in with that crowd and genuinely want to help, it's rather embarrassing.

Define "unique playstyles"... because I am an avid defender of new players and really try to help them. But when veteran players are refusing to throw in a glare as a WHM in expert roulette when I m tanking decked out in eden 530 savage gear and taking literally 0 damage from the boss and would rather stand afk for half the fight until I need 1 single heal then I wouldnt call that a unique but rather a disruptive playstyle. And yet many people (99% are those that actively do it) defend it and its a very heated debate everytime in all forums about the game.
To clarify: I dont and would never expect the average healer I get in a dungeon to dps like a savage top tier raider and expertly weave heals in between dps GCDs.
But when we re doing the damn mudman boss with the rolling balls that literally does nothing for 90% of the fight and no one is taking any damage just cast that fucking glare instead of being afk while everyone else is playing... The game gives you tools to stay active at all times regardless of role during a run.
And yet people mask that playstyle as "my choice of playing". You can have that choice in a single player game maybe cause in an online environment its kind of like a spit in the face for the other 3 people that are actually playing.

[Wrecktangle]

"When I first saw completely optional content that I dont have to participate and is aimed at a specific subset of the playerbase that dares to like oldschool grinding in muh XIV it was enough to make me unsubscribe at the time."

Eh, my argument on Eureka and content like it is that I personally think it's really bad to develop such polarizing content especially:

• Being marketed only towards a subset of players.
• Is hardly scalable (previous iteration always gets left behind for new one/new expansion).
• A significant # of resources/patch volume goes into them which takes away from other content opportunities.
• Not only that, but it's almost like they have the JV interns making it because there are almost always glaring gameplay issues attached with it that any sane developer would have identified a mile away and they usually only fix those issues later in subsequent iterations, which further reduces their already lackluster scalability.
• Holds the relic weapons hostage.

IMO of course.

That's kinda my experience aswell. When i was doing stuff for the first time, i usually just said "first time, if something is special, plase tell me" and usually someone said if there was something special or just "nah, just usual floor markers" or whatever.
And in dungeons, just last week, i somehow had terrible luck with healers and they all were new and a few of them clearly having problems, but people gave advice and that was it (was in the 40-50 area, leveling DRG), two times the healers just immediately left tho after a wipe, which the groups found kinda sad, since they couldn't tell those what went wrong, but just went "welp, if they don't want to know, that's their problem" and continued.
Given i have yet to play the high end stuff like savage, extreme or whatever, but haven't really encountered any toxicity or "help" that seemed forced to seem nice.

To be fair, If 2 completely different healers left after a wipe I'd be curious why they felt that was the appropriate response. Maybe they were overwhelmed. Maybe people were toxic to them the last dungeon they did, or maybe the tank or DPS were just such shitshows that any sane healer would find something better to do. I've seen all 3 outcomes.

Now generally speaking the leveling experience tends to be very accommodating to new players, I doubt you'll find many people who disagree with that statement, but the real friction will arise when you start to see the 2 wildly different player types merging in content. This typically happens around the expert roulette levels and 24 mans, and then gets worse up to early pugging in savage. A great example being @Delever statement just above this post.

Well a lot of the time people will lie and say that the FFXIV community is toxic just to make it look just as awful as WoW. Sometimes they're the ones causing the toxicity or are even the toxic ones themselves but through a warped sense of reality they feel that everyone else is toxic.

The common experience is a good one at the casual level. I have myself encountered two toxic people total and I started in Heavensward on Odin EU. In WoW I encountered like two toxic players per day and that was on a good day.

I'd be genuinely curious what your definition of toxic is in both games.

[Echo of Soul]

I'd be genuinely curious what your definition of toxic is in both games.

Well, I'm rarely the recipient of toxicity myself but I really don't like seeing it happen to other people either. It can be a simple thing like someone making a mistake or being new to the game and then they get yelled at, sworn at and generally mistreated and then they are kicked from the group. Sure part of it is DPS meters but mostly it's just the default behavior of the players in WoW being much more toxic.
In WoW you're afraid to ask for help because you'll get assaulted and kicked. In FFXIV people are happy to help, they're welcoming and kind.
I'm not really sure why players behave in such a toxic manner in one game but not the other but it could have to do with aestehics, combat pacing and competiveness. FFXIV just filters out those dudes right from the start due to how it looks and feels to play.

[Necromantic]

That's true. But whose fault is that? The GM-s can't just spy on twitch and ban people who are jerks outside of game. FFXIV is growing so we have all sorts of people.
I always believe when people say they met jerks ingame. Or people who are super defensive and can't accept criticism of the game. Or the opposite who whine about everything. It can totally happen. But me personally? In game, on youtube, on discord, even on Twitch 97% I come across nice people.

Now I will say I also met the nicest people in WoW. In Classic PTR to be specific. But for me the majority was not like that. Maybe I was lucky with the FFXIV community and unlucky as WoW. I don't know. But personally I can't agree with the "FFXIV is just as toxic" argument. The worst I read on the subject was on youtube saying something along the line of: "FFXIV is just as toxic, but it is a defensive feminine toxicity". Now what kind of fucked up sexist shit is that?

Oh, you're absolutely right, they can't do anything about those people. It can be a little subjective on who is at fault. Is it the moderators for allowing it to happen? Is it the players themselves for just being "those kinds of people"?

All of our mileage will vary and yes, it's all anecdotal. I don't know where that user got the idea of "feminine toxicity". I wonder what exactly they meant by that?

Define "unique playstyles"... because I am an avid defender of new players and really try to help them. But when veteran players are refusing to throw in a glare as a WHM in expert roulette when I m tanking decked out in eden 530 savage gear and taking literally 0 damage from the boss and would rather stand afk for half the fight until I need 1 single heal then I wouldnt call that a unique but rather a disruptive playstyle. And yet many people (99% are those that actively do it) defend it and its a very heated debate everytime in all forums about the game.
To clarify: I dont and would never expect the average healer I get in a dungeon to dps like a savage top tier raider and expertly weave heals in between dps GCDs.
But when we re doing the damn mudman boss with the rolling balls that literally does nothing for 90% of the fight and no one is taking any damage just cast that fucking glare instead of being afk while everyone else is playing... The game gives you tools to stay active at all times regardless of role during a run.
And yet people mask that playstyle as "my choice of playing". You can have that choice in a single player game maybe cause in an online environment its kind of like a spit in the face for the other 3 people that are actually playing.

I've seen all kinds of ways people have described how they play. To your example, yes, a Whm who does that would be an example. That particular subject triggers a LOT of people (any mention of it on the subreddit and its an inevitable flamefest). For things like that, unless it ever becomes an actual requirement (has to be documented) then it's just personal opinion. I've seen people on both sides of that fence make very good arguments for it. I personally wouldn't call it disruptive because that may not be their intent. Some people just have comfort zones and they're well within their rights to stay in that zone. Anyone who disagrees in any roulette is welcome to vote/kick them. I've had healer-only players and never once have any of them ever been kicked. I can see that happening more in a FC setting where they can set requirements.

Seeing it as a "spit in the face" is subjective too. Good example, this game's predecessor. In FFXI, you'd be laughed at for even suggesting a Whm do DPS. Even someone who played years ago in WoW as a holy Priest. There are several who have played that game for a long time, come to this game and are used to being a heal healer. Next thing they know, someone is berating them or treating them like a malicious person for not doing something they're not even required to do, just preferred to do by a chunk of the community. Imagine how confusing that would be.

It even goes along with disciples of the hand. I've seen people berate others for their preferred methods of crafting and the theorycrafting therein. Heaven forbid others are not exactly like we are.

[Delever]

Oh, you're absolutely right, they can't do anything about those people. It can be a little subjective on who is at fault. Is it the moderators for allowing it to happen? Is it the players themselves for just being "those kinds of people"?

All of our mileage will vary and yes, it's all anecdotal. I don't know where that user got the idea of "feminine toxicity". I wonder what exactly they meant by that?




I've seen all kinds of ways people have described how they play. To your example, yes, a Whm who does that would be an example. That particular subject triggers a LOT of people (any mention of it on the subreddit and its an inevitable flamefest). For things like that, unless it ever becomes an actual requirement (has to be documented) then it's just personal opinion. I've seen people on both sides of that fence make very good arguments for it. I personally wouldn't call it disruptive because that may not be their intent. Some people just have comfort zones and they're well within their rights to stay in that zone. Anyone who disagrees in any roulette is welcome to vote/kick them. I've had healer-only players and never once have any of them ever been kicked. I can see that happening more in a FC setting where they can set requirements.

Seeing it as a "spit in the face" is subjective too. Good example, this game's predecessor. In FFXI, you'd be laughed at for even suggesting a Whm do DPS. Even someone who played years ago in WoW as a holy Priest. There are several who have played that game for a long time, come to this game and are used to being a heal healer. Next thing they know, someone is berating them or treating them like a malicious person for not doing something they're not even required to do, just preferred to do by a chunk of the community. Imagine how confusing that would be.

It even goes along with disciples of the hand. I've seen people berate others for their preferred methods of crafting and the theorycrafting therein. Heaven forbid others are not exactly like we are.

Well you see it wouldnt be an issue if I could just vote kick people like tha but you cannot. Votekicking someone for no reason results in almost a guaranteed GM warning if the person bothers to report you. I understand btw the examples of previous games that you mentioned but the role of the healer in those games and the style of healing was a lot different. In WoW classic for example mana actually mattered and every mana spent dpsing is a mana that isnt spent healing and you can very very quickly run out of mana, something that is not the case in XIV.
The comfort zone argument is incredibly subjective and everyone can formulate a comfort zone of whatever they wish which can lead to incredibly disruptive gameplay. If I say for example that as a tank my comfort zone is to establish aggro and just pop defensives when needed and in the meantime just let my character auto and not use damage skills until I m close to losing aggro can you not see how annoying that would be to other people? Literally imagine a dungeon where you have 2 average dps, a tank not dpsing and a healer not dpsing. That run would be awful.
And yet if they kicked me without me saying anything bad and I report them then they get warned for being toxic. Thats kinda shit :/

[Shakzor]

To be fair, If 2 completely different healers left after a wipe I'd be curious why they felt that was the appropriate response. Maybe they were overwhelmed. Maybe people were toxic to them the last dungeon they did, or maybe the tank or DPS were just such shitshows that any sane healer would find something better to do. I've seen all 3 outcomes.

Nah, in those 2 cases, everyone noticed that those clearly had problems (like singletarget healing only themselves or not at all) keeping the group up at the first boss in Aurum Vale. No one (except the tank ofcourse) was taking any damage outside of the unavoidable group wides. No one was saying anything except the usual "hello", so us being mean to them was also not the case. As i said, those two were pretty muchexceptions, the vast majority i experience, is either completely uneventful with maybe an occasional wipe after which tank or heal says/asks to pull less because they're rusty or someone immediately says they're new and would like to know if something is up.
But even in expert roulettes and 24mans, i just have completely uneventful ones. IF someone says anything, it's rarely anything outside of "uh, not this one again" or some random smalltalk

[Necromantic]

Well you see it wouldnt be an issue if I could just vote kick people like tha but you cannot. Votekicking someone for no reason results in almost a guaranteed GM warning if the person bothers to report you. I understand btw the examples of previous games that you mentioned but the role of the healer in those games and the style of healing was a lot different. In WoW classic for example mana actually mattered and every mana spent dpsing is a mana that isnt spent healing and you can very very quickly run out of mana, something that is not the case in XIV.
The comfort zone argument is incredibly subjective and everyone can formulate a comfort zone of whatever they wish which can lead to incredibly disruptive gameplay. If I say for example that as a tank my comfort zone is to establish aggro and just pop defensives when needed and in the meantime just let my character auto and not use damage skills until I m close to losing aggro can you not see how annoying that would be to other people? Literally imagine a dungeon where you have 2 average dps, a tank not dpsing and a healer not dpsing. That run would be awful.
And yet if they kicked me without me saying anything bad and I report them then they get warned for being toxic. Thats kinda shit :/

The playstyles may be different but they're still playstyles. SE's own code of conduct that you agree to before you can even play the game says that you agree to respect other's unique playstyles.

Yes, I can see that tank example may possibly annoy someone but as I said, they can vote/kick if they honestly feel they're being disruptive. A GM may only warn someone for kicking if they were doing it in a bully sense (trash talking them, instigating, etc) but a group can kick someone if they genuinely feel their playstyle is disruptive. It works the same in WoW too. It's the group's decision and can kick for any reason they want. However, we all know many GMs are wishy washy and I've seen the same people in WoW who GM contradict themselves.

When it comes to playstyle disagreements, I always recommend playing with friends you know are the same as you. Running with randoms, you're going to get variations.

[Necromantic]

You can totally votekick people, but not just because they don't do what you want or play up to your standard.

Is someone AFK? Purposefully getting people killed? Sure, kick them.

Is the healer not DPSing enough? Sorry, but no. You probably won't get away with a kick for that.

I'm not sure if I understood completely but you can kick if someone isn't playing to your standard... if the others agree with you. I've voted no on kicks that I felt were frivolous. Don't come into my dungeon while I'm leveling my alts with your raid geared character and expect everyone to play to your personal standards.

I know in WoW, I was in a thread where a blue flat-out said you can kick for any reason you want. You don't like their name, transmog, playstyle or whatever. If the rest vote Yes, the kick was jusitified.

[Wrecktangle]

It can be a simple thing like someone making a mistake or being new to the game and then they get yelled at, sworn at and generally mistreated and then they are kicked from the group. Sure part of it is DPS meters but mostly it's just the default behavior of the players in WoW being much more toxic.

You still haven't defined toxicity to me. What IS toxicity? Define it. All you did was give 2 very generic examples:

• Being kicked from a group
• Verbal abuse

My rebuttal to this is that:

• Kicking someone from a group isn't toxic.
• Verbal abuse is certainly toxic, but defining verbal abuse is challenging. IMHO someone being yelled at doesn't really qualify on it's own IMO. It's perfectly valid to express frustration depending on the context.

Do you have any additional insight into the alleged "default player behavior in WOW being much more toxic"? Curious where you get this notion from.

In WoW you're afraid to ask for help because you'll get assaulted and kicked. In FFXIV people are happy to help, they're welcoming and kind.
I'm not really sure why players behave in such a toxic manner in one game but not the other but it could have to do with aestehics, combat pacing and competiveness. FFXIV just filters out those dudes right from the start due to how it looks and feels to play.

I've never been afraid to ask for help in either game? I've also never been assaulted or kicked in either game for asking for help. I've actually never seen ANYONE who asks for help be treated poorly. Most of the time someone who NEEDS help, but doesn't ask is the friction point and may be what you're trying to articulate.

I've met some great people from PVP in WoW who took time out of their day to help me duel to learn how to better defend against them in arena (me just trying to get to 1800 so I can get the tmog I really wanted in bfa) and I kept losing to a multi glad boosting team. He literally felt so bad he went out of his way to help me learn the tips I needed to climb (he offered to boost me, but I declined, I wanted to earn it). I've had countless people teach me M+ routes I didn't know or understand, or whenever another Ret would out perform me they'd always answer my questions or take the time to look at my logs.

I've had countless people in FF14 offer me help if I just straight up didn't get a mechanic as quickly as others did. A great example was Trine from God Kefka. I for some reason just could not visualize how to resolve that mechanic and struggled. I've staked my reputation on the line for a weekly clear for a fight I haven't cleared but had great logs and confidence that I could do it and if I failed once I would gladly drop group. We 3 shot it and both wipes were other peoples mistakes.

Nah, in those 2 cases, everyone noticed that those clearly had problems (like singletarget healing only themselves or not at all) keeping the group up at the first boss in Aurum Vale. No one (except the tank ofcourse) was taking any damage outside of the unavoidable group wides. No one was saying anything except the usual "hello", so us being mean to them was also not the case. As i said, those two were pretty muchexceptions, the vast majority i experience, is either completely uneventful with maybe an occasional wipe after which tank or heal says/asks to pull less because they're rusty or someone immediately says they're new and would like to know if something is up.
But even in expert roulettes and 24mans, i just have completely uneventful ones. IF someone says anything, it's rarely anything outside of "uh, not this one again" or some random smalltalk

Nono you misunderstood. I was merely saying there's generally those 3 reasons why someone leaves after a wipe. It's clear you weren't the issue, but their PAST experiences were and led them to their decision to leave.

[Echo of Soul]

You still haven't defined toxicity to me. What IS toxicity? Define it.

No problem, that's why we have dictionaries
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/toxic
You are welcome sir

[Necromantic]

*snip*

While kicking someone from a group may not be a violation and get you banned, it doesn't mean it can't be toxic. If you want to go by the definition above, doing it maliciously fits the definition. So when a group of friends kick randoms for giggles, they're being toxic yet within the rules. It's a weird gray area.

Yelling at someone is absolutely toxic, no matter how anyone tries to sweeten it up. Nobody deserves to be yelled at. If someone in a random group simply isn't playing good enough for you, initiate a kick. If it passes, you win. If not, suck it up and finish or leave. There is never a good reason to yell at somebody. If you get that frustrated, maybe the game isn't for you or maybe you need a break. Some people use games to vent their real life anger but need to understand not to take their bad day out on others... it's not their bad day.

I've actually never seen ANYONE who asks for help be treated poorly

Ever browsed the official forums or subreddit (be honest...)? I see people doing that and getting bombarded with insults or comments like "you should just quit, you're worthless" and watching comments like that get a bunch of upvotes. I think MOST of the bad people in FFXIV are not saying these things in-game so they don't get banned. In my experience, the same goes with WoW too. I see no more or less rude people in either game.

[Necromantic]

I dunno, I've been told many times that I'm "trying to be carried" and other similar nonsense when I communicate with a group that I haven't done something before. So yeah, I rarely offer up any information about my shortcomings in pugs.

Of course, that was all in WoW, where literally every single social experience gets quickly reduced to who is "carrying" and who is "carried" even when the group is largely made of equals.

Over 90% of the time when someone says they're carrying someone... they're not. They have a piece or two of better gear and want any reason to inflate their own ego.