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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    I find the toxic comunity thing in FFXIV odd because i have not seen it and i play on Odin EU thats always full. If i tank i can ask the healer if they are ok with big pulls and if im healing tanks accomodate me if i say im rusty with the class. Also if you tell the primary tacts to people in dungeons usually you end up with 3 commendations.

    Must be an American issue with the toxicity.

    That's kinda my experience aswell. When i was doing stuff for the first time, i usually just said "first time, if something is special, plase tell me" and usually someone said if there was something special or just "nah, just usual floor markers" or whatever.
    And in dungeons, just last week, i somehow had terrible luck with healers and they all were new and a few of them clearly having problems, but people gave advice and that was it (was in the 40-50 area, leveling DRG), two times the healers just immediately left tho after a wipe, which the groups found kinda sad, since they couldn't tell those what went wrong, but just went "welp, if they don't want to know, that's their problem" and continued.
    Given i have yet to play the high end stuff like savage, extreme or whatever, but haven't really encountered any toxicity or "help" that seemed forced to seem nice.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    Given i have yet to play the high end stuff like savage, extreme or whatever, but haven't really encountered any toxicity or "help" that seemed forced to seem nice.
    That's generally when problems start, but that's true for any MMO, really.

    People will get a little "If you haven't done this 20 times in the first week you're a bad human for even talking to us. You must just want a carry. Lazy scrubs. Always looking for handouts. Oh, you want to LEARN it? Shoulda thought of that before it came out, noob." about it in pugs. The standard stuff.

    Overall though, people tend to be pretty friendly about most content.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    I find the toxic comunity thing in FFXIV odd because i have not seen it and i play on Odin EU thats always full. If i tank i can ask the healer if they are ok with big pulls and if im healing tanks accomodate me if i say im rusty with the class. Also if you tell the primary tacts to people in dungeons usually you end up with 3 commendations.

    Must be an American issue with the toxicity.
    I dunno, I play on NA legacy server that's always full too, and aside from few passing exceptions I haven't really witnessed toxicity.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    That's generally when problems start, but that's true for any MMO, really.

    People will get a little "If you haven't done this 20 times in the first week you're a bad human for even talking to us. You must just want a carry. Lazy scrubs. Always looking for handouts. Oh, you want to LEARN it? Shoulda thought of that before it came out, noob." about it in pugs. The standard stuff.

    Overall though, people tend to be pretty friendly about most content.
    Well, when i look through the finder, i always see plenty of "learning groups" even for older bosses (early current xpac and old xpacs), so there seem to be enough people that are fine with these.
    But if people don't know anything about a boss and join a group that says "know boss, have macros, fast kill", then i think people are right to expect you to know everything.
    But yeah, the high end stuff is usually where the toxicity starts in any game, but that doesn't seem to weep into the rest of the game, atleast from my experience or the people i know.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Twen View Post
    I dunno, I play on NA legacy server that's always full too, and aside from few passing exceptions I haven't really witnessed toxicity.
    Well a lot of the time people will lie and say that the FFXIV community is toxic just to make it look just as awful as WoW. Sometimes they're the ones causing the toxicity or are even the toxic ones themselves but through a warped sense of reality they feel that everyone else is toxic.

    The common experience is a good one at the casual level. I have myself encountered two toxic people total and I started in Heavensward on Odin EU. In WoW I encountered like two toxic players per day and that was on a good day.

  6. #626
    Tataru is sad, and that make me sad

    Also, killing a character that was too good for the plot its bad writing, just saying, RIP Moenbryda, you were too good for the story

  7. #627
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Moenbryda served her purpose as being fodder to amp up the stakes. I wouldn't call that bad writing. I'd say that bad writing would be obvious fodder characters who don't bite it when they are supposed to, diminishing the stakes and acting as dead weight in the plot going forward.

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  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Moenbryda served her purpose as being fodder to amp up the stakes. I wouldn't call that bad writing. I'd say that bad writing would be obvious fodder characters who don't bite it when they are supposed to, diminishing the stakes and acting as dead weight in the plot going forward.
    Its bad writing when princess peach its literally standing there, doing absolutely nothing (other than getting kidnapped) and she does, you guess it, nothing

  9. #629
    I tried it again after taking a break in ARR and it's been a very fun month. Very much a jarring experience and you feel overwhelming but people have been super helpful and kind to me, even if I queue up as a tank and don't know fights and say as much. I don't get the toxic community thing at all.

    It was super overwhelming to come back though, they should add a reintroduction chapter to get you reacquainted with the various systems.

  10. #630
    I really really hate the look and feel of the UI.

    Maybe it's 17 years playing wow, but the UI and macro system makes interacting with the game so much better. All my keybinds are shift/none macros. Easy.

    Also, and this is not just a FF problem, but click to heal like Vuhdo should be standard, or at the least, available.i bailed on LOTRO for this reason, wanted to play minstrel but the heal UI doesn't work for me

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    even if I queue up as a tank and don't know fights and say as much. I don't get the toxic community thing at all.
    It's hit/miss depending on where you go. I've browsed this forum here for FFXIV for a long time and it'll go through spurts where people here are pretty cool and have genuine discussions and it's gone through where people here are as nasty as they are on the subreddit. A couple or so years ago, there was a guy in here who frequently harassed other posters, berated them, etc and reporting him did nothing. Fast forward, I see a different mod and the guy is banned. Not sure if it's coincidence or not.

    But as far as the subreddit goes, it's worse than the official forums for berating new players or people who have unique playstyles. Gamers who are objective and understand that not everyone plays video games all day long or are naturally awesome at them are uncommon.

    People are far more likely to be themselves (even if it's just being nasty) when there is little to no accountability. While not perfect, this place holds people accountable (seems to a much greater degree lately) and in-game GMs as well. Places where people are nearly given a license to behave in a certain way, one can expect that many will take advantage of that. It's rather unfortunate and paints a bad picture for many people. And for those who are mixed in with that crowd and genuinely want to help, it's rather embarrassing.

  12. #632
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyre View Post
    Its bad writing when princess peach its literally standing there, doing absolutely nothing (other than getting kidnapped) and she does, you guess it, nothing
    But that is not a Moenbryda problem. That is a Minfilia problem. She was a bland and useless character, but thankfully she is so dead not even a necromancer can bring her back now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post

    It was super overwhelming to come back though, they should add a reintroduction chapter to get you reacquainted with the various systems.
    Well you do get access to the Novice Network. In my experience there are nice people there and loved all the discussions when I was a returner. I kinda miss it now that I'm back at full operational capacity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post

    People are far more likely to be themselves (even if it's just being nasty) when there is little to no accountability. While not perfect, this place holds people accountable (seems to a much greater degree lately) and in-game GMs as well. Places where people are nearly given a license to behave in a certain way, one can expect that many will take advantage of that. It's rather unfortunate and paints a bad picture for many people. And for those who are mixed in with that crowd and genuinely want to help, it's rather embarrassing.
    That's true. But whose fault is that? The GM-s can't just spy on twitch and ban people who are jerks outside of game. FFXIV is growing so we have all sorts of people.
    I always believe when people say they met jerks ingame. Or people who are super defensive and can't accept criticism of the game. Or the opposite who whine about everything. It can totally happen. But me personally? In game, on youtube, on discord, even on Twitch 97% I come across nice people.

    Now I will say I also met the nicest people in WoW. In Classic PTR to be specific. But for me the majority was not like that. Maybe I was lucky with the FFXIV community and unlucky as WoW. I don't know. But personally I can't agree with the "FFXIV is just as toxic" argument. The worst I read on the subject was on youtube saying something along the line of: "FFXIV is just as toxic, but it is a defensive feminine toxicity". Now what kind of fucked up sexist shit is that?

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It's hit/miss depending on where you go. I've browsed this forum here for FFXIV for a long time and it'll go through spurts where people here are pretty cool and have genuine discussions and it's gone through where people here are as nasty as they are on the subreddit. A couple or so years ago, there was a guy in here who frequently harassed other posters, berated them, etc and reporting him did nothing. Fast forward, I see a different mod and the guy is banned. Not sure if it's coincidence or not.

    But as far as the subreddit goes, it's worse than the official forums for berating new players or people who have unique playstyles. Gamers who are objective and understand that not everyone plays video games all day long or are naturally awesome at them are uncommon.

    People are far more likely to be themselves (even if it's just being nasty) when there is little to no accountability. While not perfect, this place holds people accountable (seems to a much greater degree lately) and in-game GMs as well. Places where people are nearly given a license to behave in a certain way, one can expect that many will take advantage of that. It's rather unfortunate and paints a bad picture for many people. And for those who are mixed in with that crowd and genuinely want to help, it's rather embarrassing.
    Define "unique playstyles"... because I am an avid defender of new players and really try to help them. But when veteran players are refusing to throw in a glare as a WHM in expert roulette when I m tanking decked out in eden 530 savage gear and taking literally 0 damage from the boss and would rather stand afk for half the fight until I need 1 single heal then I wouldnt call that a unique but rather a disruptive playstyle. And yet many people (99% are those that actively do it) defend it and its a very heated debate everytime in all forums about the game.
    To clarify: I dont and would never expect the average healer I get in a dungeon to dps like a savage top tier raider and expertly weave heals in between dps GCDs.
    But when we re doing the damn mudman boss with the rolling balls that literally does nothing for 90% of the fight and no one is taking any damage just cast that fucking glare instead of being afk while everyone else is playing... The game gives you tools to stay active at all times regardless of role during a run.
    And yet people mask that playstyle as "my choice of playing". You can have that choice in a single player game maybe cause in an online environment its kind of like a spit in the face for the other 3 people that are actually playing.
    Last edited by Delever; 2021-06-02 at 02:25 PM.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    "When I first saw completely optional content that I dont have to participate and is aimed at a specific subset of the playerbase that dares to like oldschool grinding in muh XIV it was enough to make me unsubscribe at the time."
    Eh, my argument on Eureka and content like it is that I personally think it's really bad to develop such polarizing content especially:
    • Being marketed only towards a subset of players.
    • Is hardly scalable (previous iteration always gets left behind for new one/new expansion).
    • A significant # of resources/patch volume goes into them which takes away from other content opportunities.
    • Not only that, but it's almost like they have the JV interns making it because there are almost always glaring gameplay issues attached with it that any sane developer would have identified a mile away and they usually only fix those issues later in subsequent iterations, which further reduces their already lackluster scalability.
    • Holds the relic weapons hostage.

    IMO of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    That's kinda my experience aswell. When i was doing stuff for the first time, i usually just said "first time, if something is special, plase tell me" and usually someone said if there was something special or just "nah, just usual floor markers" or whatever.
    And in dungeons, just last week, i somehow had terrible luck with healers and they all were new and a few of them clearly having problems, but people gave advice and that was it (was in the 40-50 area, leveling DRG), two times the healers just immediately left tho after a wipe, which the groups found kinda sad, since they couldn't tell those what went wrong, but just went "welp, if they don't want to know, that's their problem" and continued.
    Given i have yet to play the high end stuff like savage, extreme or whatever, but haven't really encountered any toxicity or "help" that seemed forced to seem nice.
    To be fair, If 2 completely different healers left after a wipe I'd be curious why they felt that was the appropriate response. Maybe they were overwhelmed. Maybe people were toxic to them the last dungeon they did, or maybe the tank or DPS were just such shitshows that any sane healer would find something better to do. I've seen all 3 outcomes.

    Now generally speaking the leveling experience tends to be very accommodating to new players, I doubt you'll find many people who disagree with that statement, but the real friction will arise when you start to see the 2 wildly different player types merging in content. This typically happens around the expert roulette levels and 24 mans, and then gets worse up to early pugging in savage. A great example being @Delever statement just above this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Well a lot of the time people will lie and say that the FFXIV community is toxic just to make it look just as awful as WoW. Sometimes they're the ones causing the toxicity or are even the toxic ones themselves but through a warped sense of reality they feel that everyone else is toxic.

    The common experience is a good one at the casual level. I have myself encountered two toxic people total and I started in Heavensward on Odin EU. In WoW I encountered like two toxic players per day and that was on a good day.
    I'd be genuinely curious what your definition of toxic is in both games.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2021-06-02 at 02:27 PM.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I'd be genuinely curious what your definition of toxic is in both games.
    Well, I'm rarely the recipient of toxicity myself but I really don't like seeing it happen to other people either. It can be a simple thing like someone making a mistake or being new to the game and then they get yelled at, sworn at and generally mistreated and then they are kicked from the group. Sure part of it is DPS meters but mostly it's just the default behavior of the players in WoW being much more toxic.
    In WoW you're afraid to ask for help because you'll get assaulted and kicked. In FFXIV people are happy to help, they're welcoming and kind.
    I'm not really sure why players behave in such a toxic manner in one game but not the other but it could have to do with aestehics, combat pacing and competiveness. FFXIV just filters out those dudes right from the start due to how it looks and feels to play.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    That's true. But whose fault is that? The GM-s can't just spy on twitch and ban people who are jerks outside of game. FFXIV is growing so we have all sorts of people.
    I always believe when people say they met jerks ingame. Or people who are super defensive and can't accept criticism of the game. Or the opposite who whine about everything. It can totally happen. But me personally? In game, on youtube, on discord, even on Twitch 97% I come across nice people.

    Now I will say I also met the nicest people in WoW. In Classic PTR to be specific. But for me the majority was not like that. Maybe I was lucky with the FFXIV community and unlucky as WoW. I don't know. But personally I can't agree with the "FFXIV is just as toxic" argument. The worst I read on the subject was on youtube saying something along the line of: "FFXIV is just as toxic, but it is a defensive feminine toxicity". Now what kind of fucked up sexist shit is that?
    Oh, you're absolutely right, they can't do anything about those people. It can be a little subjective on who is at fault. Is it the moderators for allowing it to happen? Is it the players themselves for just being "those kinds of people"?

    All of our mileage will vary and yes, it's all anecdotal. I don't know where that user got the idea of "feminine toxicity". I wonder what exactly they meant by that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Define "unique playstyles"... because I am an avid defender of new players and really try to help them. But when veteran players are refusing to throw in a glare as a WHM in expert roulette when I m tanking decked out in eden 530 savage gear and taking literally 0 damage from the boss and would rather stand afk for half the fight until I need 1 single heal then I wouldnt call that a unique but rather a disruptive playstyle. And yet many people (99% are those that actively do it) defend it and its a very heated debate everytime in all forums about the game.
    To clarify: I dont and would never expect the average healer I get in a dungeon to dps like a savage top tier raider and expertly weave heals in between dps GCDs.
    But when we re doing the damn mudman boss with the rolling balls that literally does nothing for 90% of the fight and no one is taking any damage just cast that fucking glare instead of being afk while everyone else is playing... The game gives you tools to stay active at all times regardless of role during a run.
    And yet people mask that playstyle as "my choice of playing". You can have that choice in a single player game maybe cause in an online environment its kind of like a spit in the face for the other 3 people that are actually playing.
    I've seen all kinds of ways people have described how they play. To your example, yes, a Whm who does that would be an example. That particular subject triggers a LOT of people (any mention of it on the subreddit and its an inevitable flamefest). For things like that, unless it ever becomes an actual requirement (has to be documented) then it's just personal opinion. I've seen people on both sides of that fence make very good arguments for it. I personally wouldn't call it disruptive because that may not be their intent. Some people just have comfort zones and they're well within their rights to stay in that zone. Anyone who disagrees in any roulette is welcome to vote/kick them. I've had healer-only players and never once have any of them ever been kicked. I can see that happening more in a FC setting where they can set requirements.

    Seeing it as a "spit in the face" is subjective too. Good example, this game's predecessor. In FFXI, you'd be laughed at for even suggesting a Whm do DPS. Even someone who played years ago in WoW as a holy Priest. There are several who have played that game for a long time, come to this game and are used to being a heal healer. Next thing they know, someone is berating them or treating them like a malicious person for not doing something they're not even required to do, just preferred to do by a chunk of the community. Imagine how confusing that would be.

    It even goes along with disciples of the hand. I've seen people berate others for their preferred methods of crafting and the theorycrafting therein. Heaven forbid others are not exactly like we are.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Oh, you're absolutely right, they can't do anything about those people. It can be a little subjective on who is at fault. Is it the moderators for allowing it to happen? Is it the players themselves for just being "those kinds of people"?

    All of our mileage will vary and yes, it's all anecdotal. I don't know where that user got the idea of "feminine toxicity". I wonder what exactly they meant by that?




    I've seen all kinds of ways people have described how they play. To your example, yes, a Whm who does that would be an example. That particular subject triggers a LOT of people (any mention of it on the subreddit and its an inevitable flamefest). For things like that, unless it ever becomes an actual requirement (has to be documented) then it's just personal opinion. I've seen people on both sides of that fence make very good arguments for it. I personally wouldn't call it disruptive because that may not be their intent. Some people just have comfort zones and they're well within their rights to stay in that zone. Anyone who disagrees in any roulette is welcome to vote/kick them. I've had healer-only players and never once have any of them ever been kicked. I can see that happening more in a FC setting where they can set requirements.

    Seeing it as a "spit in the face" is subjective too. Good example, this game's predecessor. In FFXI, you'd be laughed at for even suggesting a Whm do DPS. Even someone who played years ago in WoW as a holy Priest. There are several who have played that game for a long time, come to this game and are used to being a heal healer. Next thing they know, someone is berating them or treating them like a malicious person for not doing something they're not even required to do, just preferred to do by a chunk of the community. Imagine how confusing that would be.

    It even goes along with disciples of the hand. I've seen people berate others for their preferred methods of crafting and the theorycrafting therein. Heaven forbid others are not exactly like we are.
    Well you see it wouldnt be an issue if I could just vote kick people like tha but you cannot. Votekicking someone for no reason results in almost a guaranteed GM warning if the person bothers to report you. I understand btw the examples of previous games that you mentioned but the role of the healer in those games and the style of healing was a lot different. In WoW classic for example mana actually mattered and every mana spent dpsing is a mana that isnt spent healing and you can very very quickly run out of mana, something that is not the case in XIV.
    The comfort zone argument is incredibly subjective and everyone can formulate a comfort zone of whatever they wish which can lead to incredibly disruptive gameplay. If I say for example that as a tank my comfort zone is to establish aggro and just pop defensives when needed and in the meantime just let my character auto and not use damage skills until I m close to losing aggro can you not see how annoying that would be to other people? Literally imagine a dungeon where you have 2 average dps, a tank not dpsing and a healer not dpsing. That run would be awful.
    And yet if they kicked me without me saying anything bad and I report them then they get warned for being toxic. Thats kinda shit :/

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    To be fair, If 2 completely different healers left after a wipe I'd be curious why they felt that was the appropriate response. Maybe they were overwhelmed. Maybe people were toxic to them the last dungeon they did, or maybe the tank or DPS were just such shitshows that any sane healer would find something better to do. I've seen all 3 outcomes.
    Nah, in those 2 cases, everyone noticed that those clearly had problems (like singletarget healing only themselves or not at all) keeping the group up at the first boss in Aurum Vale. No one (except the tank ofcourse) was taking any damage outside of the unavoidable group wides. No one was saying anything except the usual "hello", so us being mean to them was also not the case. As i said, those two were pretty muchexceptions, the vast majority i experience, is either completely uneventful with maybe an occasional wipe after which tank or heal says/asks to pull less because they're rusty or someone immediately says they're new and would like to know if something is up.
    But even in expert roulettes and 24mans, i just have completely uneventful ones. IF someone says anything, it's rarely anything outside of "uh, not this one again" or some random smalltalk

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Well you see it wouldnt be an issue if I could just vote kick people like tha but you cannot. Votekicking someone for no reason results in almost a guaranteed GM warning if the person bothers to report you. I understand btw the examples of previous games that you mentioned but the role of the healer in those games and the style of healing was a lot different. In WoW classic for example mana actually mattered and every mana spent dpsing is a mana that isnt spent healing and you can very very quickly run out of mana, something that is not the case in XIV.
    The comfort zone argument is incredibly subjective and everyone can formulate a comfort zone of whatever they wish which can lead to incredibly disruptive gameplay. If I say for example that as a tank my comfort zone is to establish aggro and just pop defensives when needed and in the meantime just let my character auto and not use damage skills until I m close to losing aggro can you not see how annoying that would be to other people? Literally imagine a dungeon where you have 2 average dps, a tank not dpsing and a healer not dpsing. That run would be awful.
    And yet if they kicked me without me saying anything bad and I report them then they get warned for being toxic. Thats kinda shit :/
    The playstyles may be different but they're still playstyles. SE's own code of conduct that you agree to before you can even play the game says that you agree to respect other's unique playstyles.

    Yes, I can see that tank example may possibly annoy someone but as I said, they can vote/kick if they honestly feel they're being disruptive. A GM may only warn someone for kicking if they were doing it in a bully sense (trash talking them, instigating, etc) but a group can kick someone if they genuinely feel their playstyle is disruptive. It works the same in WoW too. It's the group's decision and can kick for any reason they want. However, we all know many GMs are wishy washy and I've seen the same people in WoW who GM contradict themselves.

    When it comes to playstyle disagreements, I always recommend playing with friends you know are the same as you. Running with randoms, you're going to get variations.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Well you see it wouldnt be an issue if I could just vote kick people like tha but you cannot. Votekicking someone for no reason results in almost a guaranteed GM warning if the person bothers to report you. I understand btw the examples of previous games that you mentioned but the role of the healer in those games and the style of healing was a lot different. In WoW classic for example mana actually mattered and every mana spent dpsing is a mana that isnt spent healing and you can very very quickly run out of mana, something that is not the case in XIV.
    The comfort zone argument is incredibly subjective and everyone can formulate a comfort zone of whatever they wish which can lead to incredibly disruptive gameplay. If I say for example that as a tank my comfort zone is to establish aggro and just pop defensives when needed and in the meantime just let my character auto and not use damage skills until I m close to losing aggro can you not see how annoying that would be to other people? Literally imagine a dungeon where you have 2 average dps, a tank not dpsing and a healer not dpsing. That run would be awful.
    And yet if they kicked me without me saying anything bad and I report them then they get warned for being toxic. Thats kinda shit :/
    You can totally votekick people, but not just because they don't do what you want or play up to your standard.

    Is someone AFK? Purposefully getting people killed? Sure, kick them.

    Is the healer not DPSing enough? Sorry, but no. You probably won't get away with a kick for that.

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