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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    To be fair, If 2 completely different healers left after a wipe I'd be curious why they felt that was the appropriate response. Maybe they were overwhelmed. Maybe people were toxic to them the last dungeon they did, or maybe the tank or DPS were just such shitshows that any sane healer would find something better to do. I've seen all 3 outcomes.
    Nah, in those 2 cases, everyone noticed that those clearly had problems (like singletarget healing only themselves or not at all) keeping the group up at the first boss in Aurum Vale. No one (except the tank ofcourse) was taking any damage outside of the unavoidable group wides. No one was saying anything except the usual "hello", so us being mean to them was also not the case. As i said, those two were pretty muchexceptions, the vast majority i experience, is either completely uneventful with maybe an occasional wipe after which tank or heal says/asks to pull less because they're rusty or someone immediately says they're new and would like to know if something is up.
    But even in expert roulettes and 24mans, i just have completely uneventful ones. IF someone says anything, it's rarely anything outside of "uh, not this one again" or some random smalltalk

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Well you see it wouldnt be an issue if I could just vote kick people like tha but you cannot. Votekicking someone for no reason results in almost a guaranteed GM warning if the person bothers to report you. I understand btw the examples of previous games that you mentioned but the role of the healer in those games and the style of healing was a lot different. In WoW classic for example mana actually mattered and every mana spent dpsing is a mana that isnt spent healing and you can very very quickly run out of mana, something that is not the case in XIV.
    The comfort zone argument is incredibly subjective and everyone can formulate a comfort zone of whatever they wish which can lead to incredibly disruptive gameplay. If I say for example that as a tank my comfort zone is to establish aggro and just pop defensives when needed and in the meantime just let my character auto and not use damage skills until I m close to losing aggro can you not see how annoying that would be to other people? Literally imagine a dungeon where you have 2 average dps, a tank not dpsing and a healer not dpsing. That run would be awful.
    And yet if they kicked me without me saying anything bad and I report them then they get warned for being toxic. Thats kinda shit :/
    The playstyles may be different but they're still playstyles. SE's own code of conduct that you agree to before you can even play the game says that you agree to respect other's unique playstyles.

    Yes, I can see that tank example may possibly annoy someone but as I said, they can vote/kick if they honestly feel they're being disruptive. A GM may only warn someone for kicking if they were doing it in a bully sense (trash talking them, instigating, etc) but a group can kick someone if they genuinely feel their playstyle is disruptive. It works the same in WoW too. It's the group's decision and can kick for any reason they want. However, we all know many GMs are wishy washy and I've seen the same people in WoW who GM contradict themselves.

    When it comes to playstyle disagreements, I always recommend playing with friends you know are the same as you. Running with randoms, you're going to get variations.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Well you see it wouldnt be an issue if I could just vote kick people like tha but you cannot. Votekicking someone for no reason results in almost a guaranteed GM warning if the person bothers to report you. I understand btw the examples of previous games that you mentioned but the role of the healer in those games and the style of healing was a lot different. In WoW classic for example mana actually mattered and every mana spent dpsing is a mana that isnt spent healing and you can very very quickly run out of mana, something that is not the case in XIV.
    The comfort zone argument is incredibly subjective and everyone can formulate a comfort zone of whatever they wish which can lead to incredibly disruptive gameplay. If I say for example that as a tank my comfort zone is to establish aggro and just pop defensives when needed and in the meantime just let my character auto and not use damage skills until I m close to losing aggro can you not see how annoying that would be to other people? Literally imagine a dungeon where you have 2 average dps, a tank not dpsing and a healer not dpsing. That run would be awful.
    And yet if they kicked me without me saying anything bad and I report them then they get warned for being toxic. Thats kinda shit :/
    You can totally votekick people, but not just because they don't do what you want or play up to your standard.

    Is someone AFK? Purposefully getting people killed? Sure, kick them.

    Is the healer not DPSing enough? Sorry, but no. You probably won't get away with a kick for that.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    You can totally votekick people, but not just because they don't do what you want or play up to your standard.

    Is someone AFK? Purposefully getting people killed? Sure, kick them.

    Is the healer not DPSing enough? Sorry, but no. You probably won't get away with a kick for that.
    I'm not sure if I understood completely but you can kick if someone isn't playing to your standard... if the others agree with you. I've voted no on kicks that I felt were frivolous. Don't come into my dungeon while I'm leveling my alts with your raid geared character and expect everyone to play to your personal standards.

    I know in WoW, I was in a thread where a blue flat-out said you can kick for any reason you want. You don't like their name, transmog, playstyle or whatever. If the rest vote Yes, the kick was jusitified.
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2021-06-02 at 06:47 PM.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    It can be a simple thing like someone making a mistake or being new to the game and then they get yelled at, sworn at and generally mistreated and then they are kicked from the group. Sure part of it is DPS meters but mostly it's just the default behavior of the players in WoW being much more toxic.
    You still haven't defined toxicity to me. What IS toxicity? Define it. All you did was give 2 very generic examples:
    • Being kicked from a group
    • Verbal abuse

    My rebuttal to this is that:
    • Kicking someone from a group isn't toxic.
    • Verbal abuse is certainly toxic, but defining verbal abuse is challenging. IMHO someone being yelled at doesn't really qualify on it's own IMO. It's perfectly valid to express frustration depending on the context.

    Do you have any additional insight into the alleged "default player behavior in WOW being much more toxic"? Curious where you get this notion from.

    In WoW you're afraid to ask for help because you'll get assaulted and kicked. In FFXIV people are happy to help, they're welcoming and kind.
    I'm not really sure why players behave in such a toxic manner in one game but not the other but it could have to do with aestehics, combat pacing and competiveness. FFXIV just filters out those dudes right from the start due to how it looks and feels to play.
    I've never been afraid to ask for help in either game? I've also never been assaulted or kicked in either game for asking for help. I've actually never seen ANYONE who asks for help be treated poorly. Most of the time someone who NEEDS help, but doesn't ask is the friction point and may be what you're trying to articulate.

    I've met some great people from PVP in WoW who took time out of their day to help me duel to learn how to better defend against them in arena (me just trying to get to 1800 so I can get the tmog I really wanted in bfa) and I kept losing to a multi glad boosting team. He literally felt so bad he went out of his way to help me learn the tips I needed to climb (he offered to boost me, but I declined, I wanted to earn it). I've had countless people teach me M+ routes I didn't know or understand, or whenever another Ret would out perform me they'd always answer my questions or take the time to look at my logs.

    I've had countless people in FF14 offer me help if I just straight up didn't get a mechanic as quickly as others did. A great example was Trine from God Kefka. I for some reason just could not visualize how to resolve that mechanic and struggled. I've staked my reputation on the line for a weekly clear for a fight I haven't cleared but had great logs and confidence that I could do it and if I failed once I would gladly drop group. We 3 shot it and both wipes were other peoples mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    Nah, in those 2 cases, everyone noticed that those clearly had problems (like singletarget healing only themselves or not at all) keeping the group up at the first boss in Aurum Vale. No one (except the tank ofcourse) was taking any damage outside of the unavoidable group wides. No one was saying anything except the usual "hello", so us being mean to them was also not the case. As i said, those two were pretty muchexceptions, the vast majority i experience, is either completely uneventful with maybe an occasional wipe after which tank or heal says/asks to pull less because they're rusty or someone immediately says they're new and would like to know if something is up.
    But even in expert roulettes and 24mans, i just have completely uneventful ones. IF someone says anything, it's rarely anything outside of "uh, not this one again" or some random smalltalk
    Nono you misunderstood. I was merely saying there's generally those 3 reasons why someone leaves after a wipe. It's clear you weren't the issue, but their PAST experiences were and led them to their decision to leave.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You still haven't defined toxicity to me. What IS toxicity? Define it.
    No problem, that's why we have dictionaries
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/toxic
    You are welcome sir

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    *snip*
    While kicking someone from a group may not be a violation and get you banned, it doesn't mean it can't be toxic. If you want to go by the definition above, doing it maliciously fits the definition. So when a group of friends kick randoms for giggles, they're being toxic yet within the rules. It's a weird gray area.

    Yelling at someone is absolutely toxic, no matter how anyone tries to sweeten it up. Nobody deserves to be yelled at. If someone in a random group simply isn't playing good enough for you, initiate a kick. If it passes, you win. If not, suck it up and finish or leave. There is never a good reason to yell at somebody. If you get that frustrated, maybe the game isn't for you or maybe you need a break. Some people use games to vent their real life anger but need to understand not to take their bad day out on others... it's not their bad day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I've actually never seen ANYONE who asks for help be treated poorly
    Ever browsed the official forums or subreddit (be honest...)? I see people doing that and getting bombarded with insults or comments like "you should just quit, you're worthless" and watching comments like that get a bunch of upvotes. I think MOST of the bad people in FFXIV are not saying these things in-game so they don't get banned. In my experience, the same goes with WoW too. I see no more or less rude people in either game.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I've never been afraid to ask for help in either game? I've also never been assaulted or kicked in either game for asking for help. I've actually never seen ANYONE who asks for help be treated poorly. Most of the time someone who NEEDS help, but doesn't ask is the friction point and may be what you're trying to articulate.
    I dunno, I've been told many times that I'm "trying to be carried" and other similar nonsense when I communicate with a group that I haven't done something before. So yeah, I rarely offer up any information about my shortcomings in pugs.

    Of course, that was all in WoW, where literally every single social experience gets quickly reduced to who is "carrying" and who is "carried" even when the group is largely made of equals.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I dunno, I've been told many times that I'm "trying to be carried" and other similar nonsense when I communicate with a group that I haven't done something before. So yeah, I rarely offer up any information about my shortcomings in pugs.

    Of course, that was all in WoW, where literally every single social experience gets quickly reduced to who is "carrying" and who is "carried" even when the group is largely made of equals.
    Over 90% of the time when someone says they're carrying someone... they're not. They have a piece or two of better gear and want any reason to inflate their own ego.

  10. #650
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Over 90% of the time when someone says they're carrying someone... they're not. They have a piece or two of better gear and want any reason to inflate their own ego.
    Oh the stories I could tell. My most recent leveling roulette grouped me with a tank who had everything at 80 (not blue mage) so by all account he should have been a seasoned veteran. But the way he just sprinted out of line of sight from me (the healer) all the goddamn time, he actually may have been a newbie with a ton of money for boosts.

    So yeah these kind of dicks exist in both games.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Oh the stories I could tell. My most recent leveling roulette grouped me with a tank who had everything at 80 (not blue mage) so by all account he should have been a seasoned veteran. But the way he just sprinted out of line of sight from me (the healer) all the goddamn time, he actually may have been a newbie with a ton of money for boosts.

    So yeah these kind of dicks exist in both games.
    To be fair, playing a lot doesn't always equal skill. He could just have been bad at video games in general but had a lot of free time on his hands. Impossible to know really.
    I tend to usually just ask nicely if they'd mind doing something a bit different in order to make my life a little easier and usually they comply and are even thankful for the feedback sometimes.

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Oh the stories I could tell. My most recent leveling roulette grouped me with a tank who had everything at 80 (not blue mage) so by all account he should have been a seasoned veteran. But the way he just sprinted out of line of sight from me (the healer) all the goddamn time, he actually may have been a newbie with a ton of money for boosts.

    So yeah these kind of dicks exist in both games.
    Meanwhile, somewhere a tank is telling the tale of the awful pug where the healer couldn't keep up with his chain pulling.

  13. #653
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    To be fair, playing a lot doesn't always equal skill. He could just have been bad at video games in general but had a lot of free time on his hands. Impossible to know really.
    I tend to usually just ask nicely if they'd mind doing something a bit different in order to make my life a little easier and usually they comply and are even thankful for the feedback sometimes.
    I hear you, but one would guess that leveling all healers to the cap would let you think like a healer. Same way I as a Ninja main only pull small groups and never kite them over half the dungeon because as a Ninja I always hated the tanks running away from Doton, kiting things till my huton ran out and gathering a group so large the aoe markers overlapped.

    Guess its more about empathy than gameplay skills but still.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Meanwhile, somewhere a tank is telling the tale of the awful pug where the healer couldn't keep up with his chain pulling.
    I don't doubt. I'm probably in the duty roulette horror story thread on the official forums. He never died, but I had to sprint a lot for that.

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    In no certain ranking order:

    1) Homogenization - While this is also a good thing because it helps to make things more balanced, it is kind of a bummer that you don't have diversity. I loved Drk in FFXI and now if I want to play one, I have to be a tank.

    2) Community - By far, the worst community of any MMO I've ever played, and I've played a lot. The most unwelcoming, condescending, bullying and berating community I've experienced. I feel bad for all the new players I've seen get bombarded with absolutely unnecessary rude comments for nothing more than asking questions, trying to get their feet wet. I know some people have said it's a great community but many others have replied that the "this is a great community" evaporates once you leave town and reach level 15 and they're not wrong.

    3) MSQ - While this too is also a good thing, it's loooooong. And skipping it would make me feel like I'm missing out on a lot of good stuff but if you're interested in what's really going on and you join in now, you've got a LOT of reading to do.

    4) FATE Exp - I love these things but they're not as rewarding as they should be. I wish you could efficiently level up doing them. Right now, as others have said, deep dungeons are the most efficient. A person should be able to do whichever they really love doing without feeling like they're "doing it wrong."

    However, there is one thing about this game over WoW that I love... that there are not so many streamers/sycophants. I can go days talking in FFXIV without hearing someone say "According to XxStreamerxX... the correct way to do it is..." Not trying to blanket hate on streamers but it seems so many have lost the ability to think for themselves without relying on what some pleb with a webcam thinks.
    Gonna be honest, I don't believe the community comment at all. SE is really strict about toxic people and I see nothing but helpful people on the Crystal data center. Your description of the community fits WoW, not FF XIV.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Oh the stories I could tell. My most recent leveling roulette grouped me with a tank who had everything at 80 (not blue mage) so by all account he should have been a seasoned veteran. But the way he just sprinted out of line of sight from me (the healer) all the goddamn time, he actually may have been a newbie with a ton of money for boosts.

    So yeah these kind of dicks exist in both games.
    Recently, I was tanking on my Gunbreaker and got matched up with a healer who was DPSing and refusing to heal. After I died three times, I asked if they were going to heal me and they said "lol you're gunbreaker. you're fine." so I left. Dicks exist in every game but I come across them so infrequently in FF XIV that it's not really much of a problem. I've been playing since March and that was the first and only dick I got grouped with. Everyone else has been chill and helpful.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    No problem, that's why we have dictionaries
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/toxic
    You are welcome sir
    Appreciate the link. So using your definition of extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful, that certainly helps paint a picture, but then I would argue that extremely harsh to me would have to be pretty vile, and malicious is super subjective.

    • Is it malicious for my friends and I to remove a I only heal, healer without saying anything? Is that harmful? If so why?
    • Does us communicating impact that context? I.e. If I ask them if they can DPS and heal and they respond defensively, is it still malicious or harmful if we remove them?
    • What about if we communicate and they flat out ignore it and continue on? Is it still malicious or harmful to remove them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    While kicking someone from a group may not be a violation and get you banned, it doesn't mean it can't be toxic. If you want to go by the definition above, doing it maliciously fits the definition. So when a group of friends kick randoms for giggles, they're being toxic yet within the rules. It's a weird gray area.
    See my point above. Let me know your thoughts.

    Yelling at someone is absolutely toxic, no matter how anyone tries to sweeten it up. Nobody deserves to be yelled at. If someone in a random group simply isn't playing good enough for you, initiate a kick. If it passes, you win. If not, suck it up and finish or leave. There is never a good reason to yell at somebody. If you get that frustrated, maybe the game isn't for you or maybe you need a break. Some people use games to vent their real life anger but need to understand not to take their bad day out on others... it's not their bad day.
    If I say "Come on man, don't run away with the stack marker! Is that extremely harsh, malicious or harmful? If so how? What if it's the third time we've wiped due to the same player doing the same thing? Does that change anything? All I see is a valid expression of frustration and I would completely understand if someone said it to me?

    Do you think it's more "toxic" to remove someone without saying anything, or to say something (respectfully) and then remove them? Curious.

    Ever browsed the official forums or subreddit (be honest...)? I see people doing that and getting bombarded with insults or comments like "you should just quit, you're worthless" and watching comments like that get a bunch of upvotes. I think MOST of the bad people in FFXIV are not saying these things in-game so they don't get banned. In my experience, the same goes with WoW too. I see no more or less rude people in either game.
    Well I'm banned from the OF so no not anymore, but I've browsed it and actively posted over a thousand posts (and that's with their stupid fucking limit of 10 a day and having to edit to bypass the stupid character limits) for over 6 years. I haven't been on the reddit in a while, but by all means, feel free to link some material for me to review.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Over 90% of the time when someone says they're carrying someone... they're not. They have a piece or two of better gear and want any reason to inflate their own ego.
    Alternatively:





    Here's a sample 24 man I ran:



    Then I said, I know for a fact that if I just spam Jolt or whatever the base RDM ability is I will do more damage:


    In any of these snips, there were no deaths or egregiously offensive gear (i.e. cheating to bypass ilvl reqs). I want to make it clear this isn't a bragging thing, this is a WHAT the fuck are people doing thing. I can literally out damage them SOLO so no party stat buff, or raid buffs, while PRESSING a single button repeatedly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Oh the stories I could tell. My most recent leveling roulette grouped me with a tank who had everything at 80 (not blue mage) so by all account he should have been a seasoned veteran. But the way he just sprinted out of line of sight from me (the healer) all the goddamn time, he actually may have been a newbie with a ton of money for boosts.

    So yeah these kind of dicks exist in both games.
    To be fair though why didn't you follow the tank? Why were you also LoS? I'm curious what you were doing lol instead of following?
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2021-06-03 at 05:01 PM.

  16. #656
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Recently, I was tanking on my Gunbreaker and got matched up with a healer who was DPSing and refusing to heal. After I died three times, I asked if they were going to heal me and they said "lol you're gunbreaker. you're fine." so I left
    Huh, happened to me last week on a levelling dungeon

    Is it because of Brutal Shell that people think that?
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Huh, happened to me last week on a levelling dungeon

    Is it because of Brutal Shell that people think that?
    I honestly have no idea. I think the healer only queued as healer because they could so they were likely someone who left WoW to play FF XIV. Because people do that in WoW CONSTANTLY.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Appreciate the link. So using your definition of extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful, that certainly helps paint a picture, but then I would argue that extremely harsh to me would have to be pretty vile, and malicious is super subjective.

    • Is it malicious for my friends and I to remove a I only heal, healer without saying anything? Is that harmful? If so why?
    • Does us communicating impact that context? I.e. If I ask them if they can DPS and heal and they respond defensively, is it still malicious or harmful if we remove them?
    • What about if we communicate and they flat out ignore it and continue on? Is it still malicious or harmful to remove them?



    See my point above. Let me know your thoughts.



    If I say "Come on man, don't run away with the stack marker! Is that extremely harsh, malicious or harmful? If so how? What if it's the third time we've wiped due to the same player doing the same thing? Does that change anything? All I see is a valid expression of frustration and I would completely understand if someone said it to me?

    Do you think it's more "toxic" to remove someone without saying anything, or to say something (respectfully) and then remove them? Curious.



    Well I'm banned from the OF so no not anymore, but I've browsed it and actively posted over a thousand posts (and that's with their stupid fucking limit of 10 a day and having to edit to bypass the stupid character limits) for over 6 years. I haven't been on the reddit in a while, but by all means, feel free to link some material for me to review.



    Alternatively:





    Here's a sample 24 man I ran:



    Then I said, I know for a fact that if I just spam Jolt or whatever the base RDM ability is I will do more damage:


    In any of these snips, there were no deaths or egregiously offensive gear (i.e. cheating to bypass ilvl reqs). I want to make it clear this isn't a bragging thing, this is a WHAT the fuck are people doing thing. I can literally out damage them SOLO so no party stat buff, or raid buffs, while PRESSING a single button repeatedly...



    To be fair though why didn't you follow the tank? Why were you also LoS? I'm curious what you were doing lol instead of following?
    People don't get banned from the OF unless they are pretty toxic. Based on your comments and how you phrase things, I'd say you come as a really toxic and elitist player.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Recently, I was tanking on my Gunbreaker and got matched up with a healer who was DPSing and refusing to heal. After I died three times, I asked if they were going to heal me and they said "lol you're gunbreaker. you're fine." so I left. Dicks exist in every game but I come across them so infrequently in FF XIV that it's not really much of a problem. I've been playing since March and that was the first and only dick I got grouped with. Everyone else has been chill and helpful.
    I've played since 2016 and I've encountered two. In WoW I've probably encountered 1000 in the same period.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I've played since 2016 and I've encountered two. In WoW I've probably encountered 1000 in the same period.
    I honestly can't even count how many I've encountered in WoW when I started playing in Wrath. So many people queue as heals or tank but then just dps. You can't officially do that in FFXIV because when you queue, you have to stay in your class. So not only are people dpsing in a heal/tank class, they're doing it terribly typically.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Gonna be honest, I don't believe the community comment at all. SE is really strict about toxic people and I see nothing but helpful people on the Crystal data center. Your description of the community fits WoW, not FF XIV.
    Are you being sarcastic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Appreciate the link. So using your definition of extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful, that certainly helps paint a picture, but then I would argue that extremely harsh to me would have to be pretty vile, and malicious is super subjective.

    • Is it malicious for my friends and I to remove a I only heal, healer without saying anything? Is that harmful? If so why?
    • Does us communicating impact that context? I.e. If I ask them if they can DPS and heal and they respond defensively, is it still malicious or harmful if we remove them?
    • What about if we communicate and they flat out ignore it and continue on? Is it still malicious or harmful to remove them?
    1) No it isn't. It's your decision on them not being good enough for your group. Even if they are good enough, majority rules. However, if you add in harassing or berating type comments then yes it is harmful.

    2) It depends on the context of what you communicate. Asking someone if they'll do something is fine. They may or they may not. Sometimes people are defensive because they don't want unsolicited advice or comments. They may be in their own comfort zone and not want to. They're not breaking any rules other than not playing to your standard. That said, again, if majority rules, they can be removed.

    3) Just like 2, it depends on the context. Asking if they can DPS too is perfectly fine. If they do not respond and the vote is successful, it's fine. Some people are not going to respond. I play on PS5 with a controller and replying to stuff on the fly can be quite cumbersome. I can enter comments quickly (in my opinion) yet its still waaaay slower than a keyboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    If I say "Come on man, don't run away with the stack marker! Is that extremely harsh, malicious or harmful? If so how? What if it's the third time we've wiped due to the same player doing the same thing? Does that change anything? All I see is a valid expression of frustration and I would completely understand if someone said it to me?

    Do you think it's more "toxic" to remove someone without saying anything, or to say something (respectfully) and then remove them? Curious.
    I can see someone seeing "come on man" as offensive. Is it honestly necessary? "Don't run away with the stack marker" is direct, to the point and does not add small implications that someone is incompetent. Maybe English isn't their first language? No need to say unnecessary things. If it gets to a point where you've had it, initiate a vote.

    Removing without saying anything or saying something respectfully are fine, nobody will disagree with that. However, it can be subjective because I've lost count in my years in MMOs where someone said something like "git gud scrub" or "wtf noob" but SWORE they were "only trying to help." Toxic are (as I've gotten at) all the unnecessary comments people make. They know they're doing it yet many pretend like they don't because they don't want to hold themselves accountable for their inability to maintain their composure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Well I'm banned from the OF so no not anymore, but I've browsed it and actively posted over a thousand posts (and that's with their stupid fucking limit of 10 a day and having to edit to bypass the stupid character limits) for over 6 years. I haven't been on the reddit in a while, but by all means, feel free to link some material for me to review.
    I'm sorry you were banned. Their moderators are something to be desired. Then again, I have over 25 years of moderation experience and I've not seen a forum moderated properly in over a decade.

    Just skimming sub comments in the mega question thread, you'll find people berated all the time. On occasion, I go in there to help newcomers by answering questions and probably a dozen times in the past couple years, I've messaged a user apologizing for how they were treated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    In any of these snips, there were no deaths or egregiously offensive gear (i.e. cheating to bypass ilvl reqs). I want to make it clear this isn't a bragging thing, this is a WHAT the fuck are people doing thing. I can literally out damage them SOLO so no party stat buff, or raid buffs, while PRESSING a single button repeatedly...
    I specifically mentioned when someone says they are but are not. I've seen PLENTY of it in my years in MMOs. People insisting they were the sole reason something was cleared when the content would have been cleared whether they were there or not.

    Do carries happen? Sure they do. And sometimes, there is a very logical explanation. In your case, we only have your side.

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