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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Lindon View Post
    Once again, you're quite clearly showing your inability to understand what is being conveyed to you through the written word.

    Then again there's no real reason to continue a conversation where the majority already know that you're obviously wrong.
    Buddy, I'm asking for your help. Where did I say those 2 things? I wanted to clarify or go back and edit the error out of those posts.

    Now, if you were creating a straw man, then that's something else we can discuss.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Lindon View Post
    Once again, you're quite clearly showing your inability to understand what is being conveyed to you through the written word.

    Then again there's no real reason to continue a conversation where the majority already know that you're obviously wrong.
    Honestly, don't bother. He is clearly not interested in discussing things with anyone who disagrees with him. Notice how I pointed out the blatant flaws in everything he's said and just started ignoring me.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Honestly, don't bother. He is clearly not interested in discussing things with anyone who disagrees with him. Notice how I pointed out the blatant flaws in everything he's said and just started ignoring me.
    I kind of had that hunch when reading up the last couple of pages but I guess I got baited into it.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I honestly have no idea. I think the healer only queued as healer because they could so they were likely someone who left WoW to play FF XIV. Because people do that in WoW CONSTANTLY.
    Really? I've actually never seen this in EITHER game 8 years of FF14 and 15+ of WoW. Like they queue up as a role and then switch and leave the party without that role?

    People don't get banned from the OF unless they are pretty toxic. Based on your comments and how you phrase things, I'd say you come as a really toxic and elitist player.
    That's actually not entirely true and a lot of people will attest to that. The forums are significantly more ban happy than the actual game is.

    I'm actually more curious what comments I said and which phrases specifically liken me to being toxic? Is it because we have opposing viewpoints you're labeling me as such? Would you calling me a "toxic elitist" qualify as a toxic statement in and of itself ("extremely harsh, malicious or harmful")?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    1) No it isn't. It's your decision on them not being good enough for your group. Even if they are good enough, majority rules. However, if you add in harassing or berating type comments then yes it is harmful.

    2) It depends on the context of what you communicate. Asking someone if they'll do something is fine. They may or they may not. Sometimes people are defensive because they don't want unsolicited advice or comments. They may be in their own comfort zone and not want to. They're not breaking any rules other than not playing to your standard. That said, again, if majority rules, they can be removed.

    3) Just like 2, it depends on the context. Asking if they can DPS too is perfectly fine. If they do not respond and the vote is successful, it's fine. Some people are not going to respond. I play on PS5 with a controller and replying to stuff on the fly can be quite cumbersome. I can enter comments quickly (in my opinion) yet its still waaaay slower than a keyboard.
    Glad we agree on that.

    I can see someone seeing "come on man" as offensive. Is it honestly necessary? "Don't run away with the stack marker" is direct, to the point and does not add small implications that someone is incompetent. No need to say unnecessary things.
    I've actually had this discussion a lot and I'm not sure the robotic bare minimum is the most successful approach, but I have learned to recognize that treat people the way you want to be treated is not actually a failsafe statement. For instance, if I was to be kicked I would want to know why other players didn't want to play with me so that I could internalize and decide if I was ok with it or needed to change.

    I respectfully disagree that saying come on man is offensive. Speaking personally I find that people prefer a little personality when speaking to them in tense situations. Your statement while more succinct also is very abrupt and I've personally found that people in FF14 DO NOT respond well to that type of thing. IMHO of course.

    Do carries happen? Sure they do. And sometimes, there is a very logical explanation. In your case, we only have your side.
    Examples of logical explanations to justify nearly 33% of the players in those duties doing less than the bare minimum? Before we come at my character I'm pretty well known around here for fair and honest discussion no matter how it paints me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    That...... sounds like how he should be pulling? dungeons these days in xiv are literally
    -everyone pops sprint
    -tank pulls everything
    -aoe down

    doesnt matter if he LOSes you in the process as he wouldnt be getting hit while sprinting anyway
    Yeah I'm also wondering about that too lol...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    My experiences exactly. I've told people that it was my first time tanking a dungeon in FFXIV and typically always get comments like "It's cool. Just take your time. It's not a race " Whereas in WoW, if you say you're tanking for the first time, you're getting kicked 9 times out of 10.
    9/10 seems awfully a lot like hyperbole. I can't say I've ever had anyone give me a hard time over it in WoW, and I think I've seen it like once in FF14 so it can't be that common. I'd be open to anyone with a WoW sub streaming the experiment. I'm currently unsubbed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Uhmmm....helping the other half of the party? I can't run, heal and apply dots at the same time. And even if I'm too slow. I'm fairly certain as a party leader you have to adjust to the party speed. As a tank I NEVER pull unless I have everyone behind me.
    I still don't understand. Can you clarify what was actually happening with more specifics? The story still doesn't quite make sense to me as a PLD main.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Really? I've actually never seen this in EITHER game 8 years of FF14 and 15+ of WoW. Like they queue up as a role and then switch and leave the party without that role?



    That's actually not entirely true and a lot of people will attest to that. The forums are significantly more ban happy than the actual game is.

    I'm actually more curious what comments I said and which phrases specifically liken me to being toxic? Is it because we have opposing viewpoints you're labeling me as such? Would you calling me a "toxic elitist" qualify as a toxic statement in and of itself ("extremely harsh, malicious or harmful")?



    Glad we agree on that.



    I've actually had this discussion a lot and I'm not sure the robotic bare minimum is the most successful approach, but I have learned to recognize that treat people the way you want to be treated is not actually a failsafe statement. For instance, if I was to be kicked I would want to know why other players didn't want to play with me so that I could internalize and decide if I was ok with it or needed to change.

    I respectfully disagree that saying come on man is offensive. Speaking personally I find that people prefer a little personality when speaking to them in tense situations. Your statement while more succinct also is very abrupt and I've personally found that people in FF14 DO NOT respond well to that type of thing. IMHO of course.



    Examples of logical explanations to justify nearly 33% of the players in those duties doing less than the bare minimum? Before we come at my character I'm pretty well known around here for fair and honest discussion no matter how it paints me.



    Yeah I'm also wondering about that too lol...



    9/10 seems awfully a lot like hyperbole. I can't say I've ever had anyone give me a hard time over it in WoW, and I think I've seen it like once in FF14 so it can't be that common. I'd be open to anyone with a WoW sub streaming the experiment. I'm currently unsubbed.



    I still don't understand. Can you clarify what was actually happening with more specifics? The story still doesn't quite make sense to me as a PLD main.
    I legitimately can't even count the number of times in WoW where a person will queue as a role just for quick queues. Example: a paladin will queue as a tank but will be in ret spec for the whole dungeon/lfr. Or a shaman queues as heals but is in elemental/enhancement. It happens SO often. I'm legitimately surprised you haven't seen it much.

  6. #686
    The rigidity of player movement and combat, bright particle effects, and lack of chat bubbles. Communities figure themselves out so player attitude matters little. You won't get a lot of content in any game nowadays, it takes longer to polish as computer science advances.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    That's actually not entirely true and a lot of people will attest to that. The forums are significantly more ban happy than the actual game is.
    Would you mind pointing to some examples of that then because I've never seen that. If it's in fact the truth and as common as you say then surely there should exist a lot of evidence.

  8. #688
    Every 4.7 seconds your character is forced into some garbage "cut scene".

    Extremely boring end game gearing.

    Msq are the digital equivalent of aids.

    The fact that whwn doing dailies 99% of the time you lose your fun abilities and stuck with trash.

    Gameplay in endgame though is solid. Getting there is a massive fucking wall.

  9. #689
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I notice most of the people trying to say FFXIV is bad are using examples of stuff that happens constantly in WoW rather than examples that happen frequently in FF. As a tank, the only group I've come across that was terrible was the one example I gave. Otherwise, people are pretty reasonable.
    Oh I'm not saying it is bad. I have normally very good experiences with the community. I'm just acknowledging that yes, these can and do occur. But as you said these are infrequent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post


    I still don't understand. Can you clarify what was actually happening with more specifics? The story still doesn't quite make sense to me as a PLD main.
    He never waited for the party just ran like a madman which was annoying as hell as we were in Tam-Tara with quite a lot of corners that, you know, break line of sight. Nobody died, but it did make my job considerably harder. I remember checking his details to make sure he is new or not and being shocked when it turned out he had everything at 80.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Would you mind pointing to some examples of that then because I've never seen that. If it's in fact the truth and as common as you say then surely there should exist a lot of evidence.
    Me for example. I have a perma ban on the official forums. First offense as well. We were theorycrafting about the last zone of Shadowbringers. Obviously we didn't know about the Tempest. One guy suggested Garlemald. I replied that if the whole empire would be turned into a single zone [Forum poster who is a huge fan of Garlean Lore] Would put SE HQ to the torch.

    Got a weekly ban that was extended to be a perma ban while the week was going on.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I've actually had this discussion a lot and I'm not sure the robotic bare minimum is the most successful approach, but I have learned to recognize that treat people the way you want to be treated is not actually a failsafe statement. For instance, if I was to be kicked I would want to know why other players didn't want to play with me so that I could internalize and decide if I was ok with it or needed to change.
    I'm not insisting that the absolute bare minimum is always the golden ticket. I'm stating that in our zeal, we tend to add comments that are frankly not necessary.

    Treating people as you want to be... maybe... but I advocate for at least being respectful (wishful thinking for many).

    It's a slippery slope when someone gets kicked. Some wish they knew why but in some cases, it's more effort than it's worth. A guy hears every reason why he just didn't fit in but insists he was or has an excuse for everything. If someone is just not working out, I'm not going to be rude to them, I'll just initiate a vote. I don't want to add an additional 5-10 minutes in a (sometimes) inevitable pissing contest. Especially in easy dungeons, it's just not worth the effort.

    I respectfully disagree that saying come on man is offensive. Speaking personally I find that people prefer a little personality when speaking to them in tense situations. Your statement while more succinct also is very abrupt and I've personally found that people in FF14 DO NOT respond well to that type of thing. IMHO of course.
    I didn't say it was, I said I can see how someone may perceive it that way. I'm a very objective person. It goes along with what I do for a living. We never know what's fully going on with the guys on the other end of the wire. Good example was this game's predecessor, I befriended a guy who was often told "come on man" "hurry up..." "be faster". He one day had time to tell me that he's partially paralyzed and it hinders his reaction times. So he is not able to get any better than he already was. Though this is just one example. From their perspective, seeing "you need to do this too" may seem frustrating as it is but added comments may only exacerbate things.

    Examples of logical explanations to justify nearly 33% of the players in those duties doing less than the bare minimum? Before we come at my character I'm pretty well known around here for fair and honest discussion no matter how it paints me.
    It all depends. I'm not nor am I going to insinuate that there is something you're not telling us because I have no reason to believe you're dishonest. But there is always 2 sides to every story. For all I know, that could be some anomaly or outlier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Got a weekly ban that was extended to be a perma ban while the week was going on.
    WoW and FFXIV official forum moderators are to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. I witnessed someone get a perma ban in the FFXIV forums for reporting someone for harassment. It appears as if they banned him by mistake instead of the instigator and wouldn't reply to his appeals.

    I have inside info about WoW's official forum moderators which is why I personally never take them seriously. Their blues are sometimes something to be desired as well. I've debunked one of them in the CS forum while defending another poster who was seeking help.

  11. #691
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post


    WoW and FFXIV official forum moderators are to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. I witnessed someone get a perma ban in the FFXIV forums for reporting someone for harassment. It appears as if they banned him by mistake instead of the instigator and wouldn't reply to his appeals.

    I have inside info about WoW's official forum moderators which is why I personally never take them seriously. Their blues are sometimes something to be desired as well. I've debunked one of them in the CS forum while defending another poster who was seeking help.
    Well it doesn't matter much. Only like the lore forum anyway. General discussion is awlays whining. In game chat is nice and never had a ban or warning ingame.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    He never waited for the party just ran like a madman which was annoying as hell as we were in Tam-Tara with quite a lot of corners that, you know, break line of sight. Nobody died, but it did make my job considerably harder. I remember checking his details to make sure he is new or not and being shocked when it turned out he had everything at 80.
    This is kind of how dungeons work in FFXIV though, especially at higher level. I'm really not seeing the issue. Tanks typically do run ahead, even in parties where everyone knows what's going on. Getting LoS'd doesn't matter that much if the healer catches up in a relatively short time frame.

    A brand new tank would typically kill each and every pack individually. It's the veteran tanks that mass pull everything.

    I'm honestly confused about your apparent confusion about this, this seems perfectly normal to me, especially for someone who has everything at 80.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I legitimately can't even count the number of times in WoW where a person will queue as a role just for quick queues. Example: a paladin will queue as a tank but will be in ret spec for the whole dungeon/lfr. Or a shaman queues as heals but is in elemental/enhancement. It happens SO often. I'm legitimately surprised you haven't seen it much.
    Fortunately for me I can count on 1 hand how many times I've done a heroic or lower dungeon or LFR in the last 3 expansions.

    0. As a matter of a fact I've done LFR once in my entire life. Is that why I've never seen it? Is it only occurring in matched content where it's trivial and people don't care? I simply don't do that content. I don't even do the dungeons on normal usually. I just wait until I'm at max level and jump right into mythic. It's much more fun to me to learn it on a harder difficulty with minimal gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Would you mind pointing to some examples of that then because I've never seen that. If it's in fact the truth and as common as you say then surely there should exist a lot of evidence.
    To be fair, it's a little rude of you to request me to cite examples when you ignored the several questions that I asked you. Myself and the Wangmin both are great examples of bans that made no sense (mind you, I'm speaking about my 10 day ban, not my perma which was well earned ). Depending on the effort you put in on responding to my inquiries I'll gladly invest effort in to find more examples for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    He never waited for the party just ran like a madman which was annoying as hell as we were in Tam-Tara with quite a lot of corners that, you know, break line of sight. Nobody died, but it did make my job considerably harder. I remember checking his details to make sure he is new or not and being shocked when it turned out he had everything at 80.
    What is this "waiting for the party" stuff? He's the tank, you guys should be following him at all times. I'm still struggling though why the rest of the party and you were behind walls actively engaged and needing healing, while the tank was simultaneously needing healing and running ahead. I actually fail to see how that could actually occur if the tank is playing correctly. For instance, no ranged could be doing DPS in that situation. Nor could any melee. Therefor I don't quite understand how you could be needed on both sides of the wall.

    Now if your argument was that he's just a shit tank and didn't have aggro on anything causing split focus across the LoS issue that's fair, but that's just them being awful at the game, and make no mistake some of the most AWFUL players I've ever seen in this game have all 80s in every job and multiple mentor crowns.

    Me for example. I have a perma ban on the official forums. First offense as well. We were theorycrafting about the last zone of Shadowbringers. Obviously we didn't know about the Tempest. One guy suggested Garlemald. I replied that if the whole empire would be turned into a single zone [Forum poster who is a huge fan of Garlean Lore] Would put SE HQ to the torch.

    Got a weekly ban that was extended to be a perma ban while the week was going on.
    Now that's toxic to me. Not what you said, but that they banned you for that and then extended it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I didn't say it was, I said I can see how someone may perceive it that way. Good example was this game's predecessor, I befriended a guy who was often told "come on man" "hurry up..." "be faster". He one day had time to tell me that he's partially paralyzed and it hinders his reaction times. So he is not able to get any better than he already was. Though this is just one example. From their perspective, seeing "you need to do this too" may seem frustrating as it is but added comments may only exacerbate things.
    This comes back to the age old argument of online gaming. If you can't play at the standard should the rest of the community cater downwards or should these players seek like minded players? Alternatively, if you want to run content efficiently should these players expect others to put maximum effort in (effort =/= skill), or should they be seeking like minded players?

    To give insight, it's very strongly insinuated that the Non-JP community adheres to the latter. However, the JP community is very big on using matchmaking for only quality gameplay.

    In your example - this player if on NA could expect to be somewhat catered to in matchmade content, but in JP they'd be forced to use PF or friends, etc. to do content because of their disability. Which one is right? Why?

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    This comes back to the age old argument of online gaming. If you can't play at the standard should the rest of the community cater downwards or should these players seek like minded players? Alternatively, if you want to run content efficiently should these players expect others to put maximum effort in (effort =/= skill), or should they be seeking like minded players?

    To give insight, it's very strongly insinuated that the Non-JP community adheres to the latter. However, the JP community is very big on using matchmaking for only quality gameplay.

    In your example - this player if on NA could expect to be somewhat catered to in matchmade content, but in JP they'd be forced to use PF or friends, etc. to do content because of their disability. Which one is right? Why?
    I don't think I'm going to that extreme. What would really be the standard anyway?

    In my example, there is no right/wrong. I can't speak for anyone but myself but I don't always adhere to some cultural things. I don't always buy into it. Call me nuts, but that's just me. I dealt with that crap enough in FFXI...

    If my acquaintance played this game, they'd be well within their rights to use the DF to play something. Same applies that if the group doesn't think he fits, they have an option. I'll openly admit I've used it for people who were just not cutting the mustard. I've also used it to kick people who come into leveling duties with glowing weapons and make comments like "hurry up, scrubs".

    But in his case, when it comes to DF, most of the time, it goes by fast enough not to matter. People's performance usually only becomes a real factor in non-matchmade content, at least from my experience. I've always advocated that if you're wanting min/max people, creme of the crop, etc... ask for it in your FC, not at randoms.

  15. #695
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post


    What is this "waiting for the party" stuff? He's the tank, you guys should be following him at all times. I'm still struggling though why the rest of the party and you were behind walls actively engaged and needing healing, while the tank was simultaneously needing healing and running ahead. I actually fail to see how that could actually occur if the tank is playing correctly. For instance, no ranged could be doing DPS in that situation. Nor could any melee. Therefor I don't quite understand how you could be needed on both sides of the wall.

    Now if your argument was that he's just a shit tank and didn't have aggro on anything causing split focus across the LoS issue that's fair, but that's just them being awful at the game, and make no mistake some of the most AWFUL players I've ever seen in this game have all 80s in every job and multiple mentor crowns.



    Now that's toxic to me. Not what you said, but that they banned you for that and then extended it.
    Well like I said the run was a total clusterfuck. And I don't normally have this issue. This was specific to this run. He was constatly ahead of all three of us not even just me. But I think we have devoted him more than enough time. He was just one cunt not thinking of anyone else despite his supposed experience.

    And yes, that ban was effed up but I don't like the official forums enough to try to appeal.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    And yes, that ban was effed up but I don't like the official forums enough to try to appeal.
    It's not even worth it there. Appealing is a joke. Their own GMs told us that they're moderated by an outside company but not long ago, someone asked if they're still doing that and a GM replied something like "this old rumor still floating around?"

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well like I said the run was a total clusterfuck. And I don't normally have this issue. This was specific to this run. He was constatly ahead of all three of us not even just me. But I think we have devoted him more than enough time. He was just one cunt not thinking of anyone else despite his supposed experience.

    And yes, that ban was effed up but I don't like the official forums enough to try to appeal.
    See? I told you guys to never, ever offer up any information about your (potential) failings, problems, shortcomings, whatever. A little quote about how a tank was LoSing you turned into multiple people over multiple pages trying to pick you apart over it.

  18. #698
    The graphics. From an outsiders perspective. Also: The fights look just like long and monotone repetition dances.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I don't think I'm going to that extreme. What would really be the standard anyway?

    In my example, there is no right/wrong. I can't speak for anyone but myself but I don't always adhere to some cultural things. I don't always buy into it. Call me nuts, but that's just me. I dealt with that crap enough in FFXI...

    If my acquaintance played this game, they'd be well within their rights to use the DF to play something. Same applies that if the group doesn't think he fits, they have an option. I'll openly admit I've used it for people who were just not cutting the mustard. I've also used it to kick people who come into leveling duties with glowing weapons and make comments like "hurry up, scrubs".

    But in his case, when it comes to DF, most of the time, it goes by fast enough not to matter. People's performance usually only becomes a real factor in non-matchmade content, at least from my experience. I've always advocated that if you're wanting min/max people, creme of the crop, etc... ask for it in your FC, not at randoms.
    Wreck has always been a, "Playing bad in my groups is the TRUE toxic behavior." sort of guy. (I mean, he keeps a folder of DPS meter screenshots!)

    In any case, I've had plenty of groups where I blew the DPS away as Tank or Healer, or did 50% of the group damage as a DPS. It's actually pretty normal in dungeons. I can't imagine being concerned about it in any way, to be honest.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Fortunately for me I can count on 1 hand how many times I've done a heroic or lower dungeon or LFR in the last 3 expansions.

    0. As a matter of a fact I've done LFR once in my entire life. Is that why I've never seen it? Is it only occurring in matched content where it's trivial and people don't care? I simply don't do that content. I don't even do the dungeons on normal usually. I just wait until I'm at max level and jump right into mythic. It's much more fun to me to learn it on a harder difficulty with minimal gear.



    To be fair, it's a little rude of you to request me to cite examples when you ignored the several questions that I asked you. Myself and the Wangmin both are great examples of bans that made no sense (mind you, I'm speaking about my 10 day ban, not my perma which was well earned ). Depending on the effort you put in on responding to my inquiries I'll gladly invest effort in to find more examples for you.



    What is this "waiting for the party" stuff? He's the tank, you guys should be following him at all times. I'm still struggling though why the rest of the party and you were behind walls actively engaged and needing healing, while the tank was simultaneously needing healing and running ahead. I actually fail to see how that could actually occur if the tank is playing correctly. For instance, no ranged could be doing DPS in that situation. Nor could any melee. Therefor I don't quite understand how you could be needed on both sides of the wall.

    Now if your argument was that he's just a shit tank and didn't have aggro on anything causing split focus across the LoS issue that's fair, but that's just them being awful at the game, and make no mistake some of the most AWFUL players I've ever seen in this game have all 80s in every job and multiple mentor crowns.



    Now that's toxic to me. Not what you said, but that they banned you for that and then extended it.



    This comes back to the age old argument of online gaming. If you can't play at the standard should the rest of the community cater downwards or should these players seek like minded players? Alternatively, if you want to run content efficiently should these players expect others to put maximum effort in (effort =/= skill), or should they be seeking like minded players?

    To give insight, it's very strongly insinuated that the Non-JP community adheres to the latter. However, the JP community is very big on using matchmaking for only quality gameplay.

    In your example - this player if on NA could expect to be somewhat catered to in matchmade content, but in JP they'd be forced to use PF or friends, etc. to do content because of their disability. Which one is right? Why?
    It happens in matchmade activity CONSTANTLY and it drives me insane.

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