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  1. #701
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    See? I told you guys to never, ever offer up any information about your (potential) failings, problems, shortcomings, whatever. A little quote about how a tank was LoSing you turned into multiple people over multiple pages trying to pick you apart over it.
    Very true XD

    Anyway this which game is more toxic and how toxicity manifests issue could be turned into its own scientific study. I have seen plenty of nonsense on both sides regarding how they perceive this issue.

    Like:

    WoW side: FFXIV players are overly sensitive snowflakes who can't take criticism
    Also them: LoLL why would anyone play this pedo weeb trash. I sure as hell won't play a single minute

    FFXIV side: We are way more welcoming that the WoW community filled with shortsighted blind toxic sheep (oximoron much)
    Also them: If you don't like the game, go back to WoW.

    WoW side: FFXIV is just as toxic because *anecdotal evidence*

    FFXIV side: Everyone who says we are as toxic as WoW she like totally die in a fire for lying. And their dog as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstalker View Post
    The graphics. From an outsiders perspective. Also: The fights look just like long and monotone repetition dances.
    Well that IS pretty much it. There are tons of mechanics and markers so you are constantly on the move. There is very rarely a time when the whoe party is hitting the boss.

    But you can turn that around. I watched streams of the Sylvanas heroic fight and you have like five mechanics in total? Coil 9 had more instant death mechanics in the second phase of the fight. It looked unimaginatice and simple. It just depends on what you are used to.

    Pretty sure that in both games doing a fight is much more interesting than simply watching it.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    See? I told you guys to never, ever offer up any information about your (potential) failings, problems, shortcomings, whatever. A little quote about how a tank was LoSing you turned into multiple people over multiple pages trying to pick you apart over it.
    I can see people asking questions, trying to reach root cause (within reason) but yes, on the same token, it's usually not worth what it explodes into.

  3. #703
    Pandaren Monk lockblock's Avatar
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    I'm sure this one has been beaten more than a dead horse but the biggest problem I have is that final is in the name but it never is the final one.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well that IS pretty much it. There are tons of mechanics and markers so you are constantly on the move. There is very rarely a time when the whoe party is hitting the boss.

    But you can turn that around. I watched streams of the Sylvanas heroic fight and you have like five mechanics in total? Coil 9 had more instant death mechanics in the second phase of the fight. It looked unimaginatice and simple. It just depends on what you are used to.

    Pretty sure that in both games doing a fight is much more interesting than simply watching it.
    I want to play my class and not some DDR.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstalker View Post
    I want to play my class and not some DDR.
    Not sure I understand you here. Do you think WoW raids don't have mechanics? Ground effects? Movement? Things to do other than your rotation?

    (Having flashbacks of Ragnaros)

  6. #706
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockblock View Post
    I'm sure this one has been beaten more than a dead horse but the biggest problem I have is that final is in the name but it never is the final one.
    It gets worse Endwalker is not the last expansion for Final Fantasy XIV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Not sure I understand you here. Do you think WoW raids don't have mechanics? Ground effects? Movement? Things to do other than your rotation?

    (Having flashbacks of Ragnaros)
    He is glad cause WoW Raids have less mechanics LOL and he can play his totally unique builder-spender-wait for procs class.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    It gets worse Endwalker is not the last expansion for Final Fantasy XIV

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    He is glad cause WoW Raids have less mechanics LOL and he can play his totally unique builder-spender-wait for procs class.
    I legitimately once had someone say that Ultimate raids in FFXIV are easier than LFR in WoW. The lies people will tell to avoid saying anything negative about WoW is wild.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    He is glad cause WoW Raids have less mechanics LOL and he can play his totally unique builder-spender-wait for procs class.
    Well, in fairness I would have to say that WoW's class and raid design are just hands down superior to XIV. If hardcore raiding is your focus, I can't recommend XIV over WoW.

    Still, the complaint was strange! Like you don't move in WoW? Weird.

  9. #709
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I legitimately once had someone say that Ultimate raids in FFXIV are easier than LFR in WoW. The lies people will tell to avoid saying anything negative about WoW is wild.
    My favorite is that FFXIV expansions have as much content as wow hotfixes. Hilliarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, in fairness I would have to say that WoW's class and raid design are just hands down superior to XIV. If hardcore raiding is your focus, I can't recommend XIV over WoW.

    Still, the complaint was strange! Like you don't move in WoW? Weird.
    To each their own. The class design was one of the things that drew me to FFXIV. Granted it was before Role Actions but still.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    My favorite is that FFXIV expansions have as much content as wow hotfixes. Hilliarious.

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    To each their own. The class design was one of the things that drew me to FFXIV. Granted it was before Role Actions but still.
    PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY SAID THAT?! Holy shit. I hope the people that say that stretched before all those mental gymnastics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, in fairness I would have to say that WoW's class and raid design are just hands down superior to XIV. If hardcore raiding is your focus, I can't recommend XIV over WoW.

    Still, the complaint was strange! Like you don't move in WoW? Weird.
    I don't see how you can say this in earnest. the raid design in WoW is child's play compared to everything I've experienced in FFXIV.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I don't see how you can say this in earnest. the raid design in WoW is child's play compared to everything I've experienced in FFXIV.
    Post your armory and I'll go through your progress history.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstalker View Post
    Post your armory and I'll go through your progress history.
    Utterly irrelevant and I haven't seriously raided since Legion. Compared to the mythic fights I've done and the Extreme fights I've done in FFXIV(which isn't even the highest difficulty), FFXIV fights are more complex and more difficult. So there is no reason for me to post my armory since you will use any small bit you see to somehow invalidate my comment. I don't play immature games like that so I won't be posting my armory. Your insistence in seeing my armory also shows you've never actually played FFXIV.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Utterly irrelevant and I haven't seriously raided since Legion. Compared to the mythic fights I've done and the Extreme fights I've done in FFXIV(which isn't even the highest difficulty), FFXIV fights are more complex and more difficult. So there is no reason for me to post my armory since you will use any small bit you see to somehow invalidate my comment. I don't play immature games like that so I won't be posting my armory. Your insistence in seeing my armory also shows you've never actually played FFXIV.
    And will not waste a single cent on it. You and many here show the same symptoms of:
    - fed up with WoW
    - switching to another game
    - said game has to be better by default, otherwise your choice wasn't right

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstalker View Post
    And will not waste a single cent on it. You and many here show the same symptoms of:
    - fed up with WoW
    - switching to another game
    - said game has to be better by default, otherwise your choice wasn't right
    WoW actually is fucking garbage. Blizzard doesn't give a shit about quality anymore, something Shadowlands has proven. The gameplay of FFXIV is worlds more interactive than WoW ever has been. I don't need to say FFXIV is better to justify switching. Blizzard does that for me with their absolute garbage they feed the players now lol.

  15. #715
    WoW fights are barely less of "dance" fights than XIV has.

    XIV is totally scripted at points, with certain mechanics Always targeting a tank, Always targeting a healer, and Always targeting a DPS. You get some instances where this bucks the trend though, like Savage Titan as an example, with the Orange/Yellow/Blue markers. There was enough variance there that everyone had to know all mechanics, not just their specific role mechanic.

    WoW is a dance. Sorry. If it wasn't, DBM/BW wouldn't be a thing. You have fights where everything happens on a strict timer, but of course you have fights where things can be slightly variable or goes into a spell queue (Jaina), and it can cause absolute chaos.

    Both games are difficult for different reasons.

    WoW has the number of players game, on top of more "busy/tedious" mechanics (Xymox seed running. Someone's gotta do it.) , but can experiment some because of the amount of players in the player space.

    XIV has more instant-death/punishing mechanics with more "imaginative" mechanics (seeing your own death in Alexander and how to avoid it), but easier to handle without a boss mod due to how extremely scripted it is 95% of the time.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I don't think I'm going to that extreme. What would really be the standard anyway?
    If we're using say expert roulette as the context, I would argue wall to wall pulls with people pushing AOE buttons and tanks using CDs should be the standard.

    I've always advocated that if you're wanting min/max people, creme of the crop, etc... ask for it in your FC, not at randoms.
    What if you simply want more than the bare minimum? Should you have to go to FC/LS/statics to get that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well like I said the run was a total clusterfuck. And I don't normally have this issue. This was specific to this run. He was constatly ahead of all three of us not even just me. But I think we have devoted him more than enough time. He was just one cunt not thinking of anyone else despite his supposed experience.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    See? I told you guys to never, ever offer up any information about your (potential) failings, problems, shortcomings, whatever. A little quote about how a tank was LoSing you turned into multiple people over multiple pages trying to pick you apart over it.
    Just saying it DOES take 2 to LoS and it's not a problem I've ever experienced as a PLD main who's tanked over a thousand dungeons so I was actually curious of the finer details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Wreck has always been a, "Playing bad in my groups is the TRUE toxic behavior." sort of guy. (I mean, he keeps a folder of DPS meter screenshots!)
    This is actually straight up slander! I've never once harassed or called out someone for being bad. For being lazy, deceitful or not trying? Absolutely, but never because they're bad. I don't actually have the folder anymore , had to dig em up from past posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It happens in matchmade activity CONSTANTLY and it drives me insane.
    Sorry to hear that, but that does provide some clarity as to why my experience is significantly different than yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I have seen plenty of nonsense on both sides regarding how they perceive this issue.

    Like:

    WoW side: FFXIV players are overly sensitive snowflakes who can't take criticism
    Also them: LoLL why would anyone play this pedo weeb trash. I sure as hell won't play a single minute

    FFXIV side: We are way more welcoming that the WoW community filled with shortsighted blind toxic sheep (oximoron much)
    Also them: If you don't like the game, go back to WoW.

    WoW side: FFXIV is just as toxic because *anecdotal evidence*

    FFXIV side: Everyone who says we are as toxic as WoW she like totally die in a fire for lying. And their dog as well.
    This actually made me laugh and is the gist of most of my conversations here. I'm not here to champion WoW and put people down, I'm just here to have discussions about a game that I love and correct misconceptions (hypocrisy and misinformation mostly), or deep dive into discussion points to better understand people.

    You'll never hear me say FF14 is better or worse than WoW in a blanket because I genuinely don't believe that. There are aspects of both games that I love and hate and wished both games did better.

    But you can turn that around. I watched streams of the Sylvanas heroic fight and you have like five mechanics in total? Coil 9 had more instant death mechanics in the second phase of the fight. It looked unimaginatice and simple. It just depends on what you are used to.
    Coil 9 is also an enormous outlier. Did you do progression on it by any chance? Nael was one of the hardest fights I've ever personally done in my raiding career. I would never compare a heroic endboss to Nael.

    FF14 and WoW raids both create difficulty through different means. In FF14 figuring out the solution to the obscure mechanics and having all 8 people consistently do them correctly is the challenge.

    WoW creates its difficulty through decision fatigue. Overwhelming you with decisions that usually soft wipe you over time (resource strangulation, whether it's DPS, HPS or space, etc.), but generally the insta wipes are relegated to just a few players responsibilities so it's helpful to assign it to the most capable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I legitimately once had someone say that Ultimate raids in FFXIV are easier than LFR in WoW. The lies people will tell to avoid saying anything negative about WoW is wild.
    I would love to have been there. That's just someone baiting you to rile you up because that's an objective inaccuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Utterly irrelevant and I haven't seriously raided since Legion. Compared to the mythic fights I've done and the Extreme fights I've done in FFXIV(which isn't even the highest difficulty), FFXIV fights are more complex and more difficult.
    I clear most extremes in less than an hour blind on the first day in pugs. You're argument is that the mythic fights you've done are more complex and difficult does not match my experience in any way. Care to share examples of which EX/savage fights you're referencing?

    I've fallen asleep farming some EX trials (fucking Lakshmi). I've never fallen asleep in a mythic raid (I have fallen asleep once in timewalking dungeons, fuck that noise).

    For the sake of the discussion I am assuming both assessments are made on day 1 blind progression. If I am mistake please correct me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    WoW actually is fucking garbage. Blizzard doesn't give a shit about quality anymore, something Shadowlands has proven. The gameplay of FFXIV is worlds more interactive than WoW ever has been. I don't need to say FFXIV is better to justify switching. Blizzard does that for me with their absolute garbage they feed the players now lol.
    Define interactive? I actually find the gameplay to be one of the few areas that FF14 lacks when compared to WoW, especially with respect to interactivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltin View Post
    WoW fights are barely less of "dance" fights than XIV has.

    XIV is totally scripted at points, with certain mechanics Always targeting a tank, Always targeting a healer, and Always targeting a DPS. You get some instances where this bucks the trend though, like Savage Titan as an example, with the Orange/Yellow/Blue markers. There was enough variance there that everyone had to know all mechanics, not just their specific role mechanic.

    WoW is a dance. Sorry. If it wasn't, DBM/BW wouldn't be a thing. You have fights where everything happens on a strict timer, but of course you have fights where things can be slightly variable or goes into a spell queue (Jaina), and it can cause absolute chaos.

    Both games are difficult for different reasons.

    WoW has the number of players game, on top of more "busy/tedious" mechanics (Xymox seed running. Someone's gotta do it.) , but can experiment some because of the amount of players in the player space.

    XIV has more instant-death/punishing mechanics with more "imaginative" mechanics (seeing your own death in Alexander and how to avoid it), but easier to handle without a boss mod due to how extremely scripted it is 95% of the time.
    Agreed for the most part, but the only rebuttal I have is that I really hate how every single pull on a savage/ex/ultimate has me at the exact same GCD at the exact same mechanic, at the exact same time, every single pull, with astronomically low variation.

    In WoW I never had this issue or if I did, I certainly never felt it.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2021-06-04 at 09:46 PM.

  17. #717
    It's too heavily instanced for my tastes--the lack of variety in overworld content bums me out. Also not enough stuff to jump on and traverse. Other than that, it's great.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post

    Agreed for the most part, but the only rebuttal I have is that I really hate how every single pull on a savage/ex/ultimate has me at the exact same GCD at the exact same mechanic, at the exact same time, every single pull, with astronomically low variation.

    In WoW I never had this issue or if I did, I certainly never felt it.
    Can't really argue this; other than offer my own small rebuttal.

    There are minimal instances where your GCDs can change, depending on those very few fights where abilities aren't locked into Role, or are somewhat randomized, such as ES8 Light's Rampart. Depending on the strategy used, you may actually lose uptime, depending on if you got chained, or if you have to do the first set of towers. There was one PF strat I believe (I don't use PF), that required extremely heavy kiting on the outside of the arena. I'm not sure which region that was, or even what that particular strategy was called. We used a Japanese method ourselves that probably had chained people missing 1 or 2 GCDs, 0 if they were exceptionally greedy.

    99% of the time, you're absolutely right. You're locked into rotation. I do wish there was more variance, or even fights with adds. Not really since Alexander has there been a fight that I can recall that had waves of constant adds to deal with. Shiva had that very small add phase that lasted 30 seconds of a 12 minute fight. Give me a Darmac fight in XIV where we deal with adds constantly. Let us use our AOE toolkit again in something other than mega-dungeon-pulls during roulettes.

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    This is actually straight up slander! I've never once harassed or called out someone for being bad. For being lazy, deceitful or not trying? Absolutely, but never because they're bad. I don't actually have the folder anymore , had to dig em up from past posts.
    Hey, you know, I gotta rattle your cage now and again!

    Agreed for the most part, but the only rebuttal I have is that I really hate how every single pull on a savage/ex/ultimate has me at the exact same GCD at the exact same mechanic, at the exact same time, every single pull, with astronomically low variation.

    In WoW I never had this issue or if I did, I certainly never felt it.
    Indeed.

    I would put it this way: Of course by the time a guild in WoW has pulled a mythic boss 250 times it looks like they're just executing a scripted dance. But the reality is that reaching a point where you've formulated a strategy that works for your raid and that you can execute and improve on is one of the goals of raiding. It's a step in the progression.

    In XIV, that heavily scripted dance often times is the whole fight. The learning process isn't to come up with a strategy for your raid, it's to memorize stepping here and then there and then over there because the game insists that you do it no other way.

  20. #720
    people keep making "weeb" comments as a criticism as if it wont just make us glaze over anything they have to say or follow up with.

    Its final fantasy. The "accusation" is on level with the idiots who said "WoW is bad cause its cartoony"

    These post seem to have the primary intent of just saying it for its own sake, as if its a meme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lockblock View Post
    I'm sure this one has been beaten more than a dead horse but the biggest problem I have is that final is in the name but it never is the final one.
    its either they were worried the first game would be the swansong for the company at the time but it ended up being a huge success so they managed to keep going or they just wanted a fancy name as long as it let them use FF initials which fit in well with roman numerals.

    Its sorta fitting now given how it combines essentially all genre's of fantasy together so its a "final fantasy"
    Last edited by Tenjen; 2021-06-05 at 06:49 AM.

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