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  1. #721
    Years back I think before the current expansion they gave away the base game via Twitch for fellow prime members. I played the hell out of my free time to the point I maxed everything to 50 within the base game and I mean EVERYTHING, Combat/Crafting/Gather. With that being said all my criticisms about the game only go up to 50.

    Before starting I just want to say crafting was by far my favorite thing about XIV and I considered playing more just for it. When it comes to MMORPGs I like playing the economy and making my gold/gil. So I enjoyed making my sales, however I did not like the fact that you could increase your cap of market listings by adding more retainers via the cash shop. I'm all for capped listings, but that fact you put a paywall on listings to the point where if you want to post more you had to shell out real money. I would slightly be okay with it if it was a one time deal, but it was a monthly billing per extra retainer. If everyone had the same amount of listings then okay I understand, but this little thing annoyed me and ultimately this was the big thing that turned me away from XIV.

    The next thing was the combat. People kept telling me, "Combat is much better at the higher levels" and perhaps they are right, but for me combat was so boring 1-50. Remember I only played the base game, so all my combat sampling was from 1-50. It didn't feel fluid enough for me and lacked. I can't honestly think of one class I enjoyed, considering I played them all to 50. The only little neat thing I do recall is the BRD able to play instruments which I admit was super fun to play songs in the city.

    Lastly was the shit ton of story you had to do. I'm not even sure if I finished it, but omg was it tedious. I hate story being forced on me. I'm okay with getting some story, but I honestly feel like they should just let you skip the story without having to buy it.

    TLDR; Crafting GOOD. Market listing limited for basic sub without having to pay for more retainers monthly is stupid. Combat MEH. Story TOO LONG - let me skip it for free.

  2. #722
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post



    Coil 9 is also an enormous outlier. Did you do progression on it by any chance? Nael was one of the hardest fights I've ever personally done in my raiding career. I would never compare a heroic endboss to Nael.

    FF14 and WoW raids both create difficulty through different means. In FF14 figuring out the solution to the obscure mechanics and having all 8 people consistently do them correctly is the challenge.

    WoW creates its difficulty through decision fatigue. Overwhelming you with decisions that usually soft wipe you over time (resource strangulation, whether it's DPS, HPS or space, etc.), but generally the insta wipes are relegated to just a few players responsibilities so it's helpful to assign it to the most capable.

    .
    I hear you, but we ARE talking about Sylvanas. One of the central characters of the game. I know she is not an end boss but her fight should be as epic as Arthas. Don't you think?

  3. #723
    I'm only level 30, so I know things will get better, but the combat leaves a lot to be desired. I know this isn't wow, but a lot of the abilities just feel downright unresponsive - as an ARC, I have to press raging strikes or leg graze multiple times for them to activate. Not sure if the game has inherent lag or if they are being locked behind animations finishing, but it usually happens with off-GCD abilities. The animations, while flashy, don't really feel very grounded or realistic for the abilities, and they're pretty bland, so it's really hard to tell what class someone is playing if I'm watching a stream.

    This is a minor gripe, but I really like that in WoW, you can immediately tell what spec / class someone is playing just from their hotbars - the UI / Art is clean and simplistic and the animations / spell effects feel more grounded in the fantasy of the spell. It would go a long way for me at least if the ability icons were spruced up to be a bit cleaner and the animations given a second pass, but I doubt that is likely at this point. The classes themselves, while it's cool that they have unique stories, seem to be missing a lot in terms of playstyle customization and flavor (talents, trinkets, tier sets, abilities that aren't simply used for combat and have edge scenarios like Eyes of the Beast, Ritual of Doom, Death Gate, Ghost Wolf, etc.).

    Also, the glamour system, while impressive in its options, seems overly complicated and limited compared to WoW's transmog system. With so many jobs and styles, why can you only store 400 pieces to use? Why do they have to be physical objects? I don't even mind the need for consumables to mog at all, but it would go a long way to have a collection window that simply stored all looted pieces you've acquired and you never have to worry about running out of space or having to reacquire pieces.

    Finally, the world is pretty impressive in the cities / towns - they feel alive and full of bustle, but the open fields out in at least the ARR zones feel generic and ugly. Not to mention you can't swim and there's invisible walls everywhere really brings things down. The mobs just kind walk around, they don't do anything interesting or special, and most of them look super out of place. I know it's FF, but man seeing giant ladybugs and those ugly-ass octopus things with the buggy eyes everywhere is pretty immersion breaking. I know WoW isn't super stellar in this regard, but recent expacs at least make an attempt to have enemies that make sense for the area and wildlife that looks like it lives there.
    Last edited by infinitemeridian; 2021-06-05 at 03:53 PM.

  4. #724
    Epic!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Did it stop producing the content that you enjoy?
    Yes, actually. ShB has been cut content left and right. Seeing the focus on Bozja while everything else suffers killed a lot of my interest as well.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

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  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    I'm only level 30, so I know things will get better, but the combat leaves a lot to be desired. I know this isn't wow, but a lot of the abilities just feel downright unresponsive - as an ARC, I have to press raging strikes or leg graze multiple times for them to activate. Not sure if the game has inherent lag or if they are being locked behind animations finishing, but it usually happens with off-GCD abilities.
    Yeah, XIV has a lot of hard animation locks. It's something you get used to, but it's a very different feel from the fluidity of a game like WoW.

    The animations, while flashy, don't really feel very grounded or realistic for the abilities, and they're pretty bland, so it's really hard to tell what class someone is playing if I'm watching a stream.
    The skill effects are VERY "Final Fantasy", it's true. And true to the franchise, they just keep getting crazier and crazier as you level and new expansions release.

    That said, I do like a lot of it. (Could Confiteor be any more absurd and awesome at the same time?) But it's not for everyone. (And the visual clutter in groups! Agh!)

    The classes themselves, while it's cool that they have unique stories, seem to be missing a lot in terms of playstyle customization and flavor (talents, trinkets, tier sets, abilities that aren't simply used for combat and have edge scenarios like Eyes of the Beast, Ritual of Doom, Death Gate, Ghost Wolf, etc.).
    Class design is very much a weakness in the game. Similar to the encounter design there is generally ONE way to play a class, all the abilities reflect that, and there's little else.

    Also, the glamour system, while impressive in its options, seems overly complicated and limited compared to WoW's transmog system. With so many jobs and styles, why can you only store 400 pieces to use? Why do they have to be physical objects? I don't even mind the need for consumables to mog at all, but it would go a long way to have a collection window that simply stored all looted pieces you've acquired and you never have to worry about running out of space or having to reacquire pieces.
    Yep. I don't think ANYONE disagrees with this. The gear storage, inventory management and glamour system are all pretty awful.

    I know it's FF, but man seeing giant ladybugs and those ugly-ass octopus things with the buggy eyes everywhere is pretty immersion breaking. I know WoW isn't super stellar in this regard, but recent expacs at least make an attempt to have enemies that make sense for the area and wildlife that looks like it lives there.
    Yeah, like you said, it's very "Final Fantasy" in that regard. Just like the spell effects. It's not for everyone.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    Also, the glamour system, while impressive in its options, seems overly complicated and limited compared to WoW's transmog system. With so many jobs and styles, why can you only store 400 pieces to use? Why do they have to be physical objects?
    I'm sure it's in their backlog and it's simply a case of resources. They have a pretty strict schedule with certain things that have to go into certain patches. Rebuilding existing systems would likely cost us a piece of experimental content that they tend to include each expansion.

    However now that the game is growing rapidly they may be able to grow the team and rebuild some of the annoyances, we can only hope.

  7. #727
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I'm sure it's in their backlog and it's simply a case of resources. They have a pretty strict schedule with certain things that have to go into certain patches. Rebuilding existing systems would likely cost us a piece of experimental content that they tend to include each expansion.

    However now that the game is growing rapidly they may be able to grow the team and rebuild some of the annoyances, we can only hope.
    Yeah. I mean even Yoshi-P acknowledges that the glamour system is shite. He just doesn't have the same funding as WoW so he has to make do with what he was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Yes, actually. ShB has been cut content left and right.
    Might have something to do with covid and Soken's cancer.

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    at least the ARR zones feel generic and ugly
    In retrospective ARR zones are the most detailed and beautiful in the game. Starting from HW you'll be looking at much bigger empty shit with late PS2-early PS3 textures.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  9. #729
    Fake open world. Loading screens for entering zones. Invisible walls everywhere.

    And that intro, man. God damn that intro has got to be the worst thing I've ever experienced in a video game, ever.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    Not to mention you can't swim and there's invisible walls everywhere really brings things down.
    Swimming and deep water diving more comes out in Stormblood.

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I hear you, but we ARE talking about Sylvanas. One of the central characters of the game. I know she is not an end boss but her fight should be as epic as Arthas. Don't you think?
    What makes a fight epic? Why was the LK fight epic to you? I know why it was to me, but I'm more curious to you. I did watch some heroic PTR testing of Sylvanas and it certainly looked like there were more than 5 mechanics and multiple transition phases/room changes, but hard to tell from the video I saw what they were or what they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Yeah. I mean even Yoshi-P acknowledges that the glamour system is shite. He just doesn't have the same funding as WoW so he has to make do with what he was.
    How do you know this to state this so matter of factly? Is this publicly available information I wasn't aware of? We do know factually that FF14's had a larger dev team than WoW's for several expansions, although they have historically had less battle designers, a constraint that Yoshi P has complained about significantly, not that he doesn't want to hire more, simply that there aren't anymore to hire who speak Japanese apparently.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    We do know factually that FF14's had a larger dev team than WoW's for several expansions, although they have historically had less battle designers, a constraint that Yoshi P has complained about significantly, not that he doesn't want to hire more, simply that there aren't anymore to hire who speak Japanese apparently.
    Really? Where can I read about these facts? I always thought that Blizzard had a lot more resources but since I hadn't seen any numbers it was just guess work.

  13. #733
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    What makes a fight epic? Why was the LK fight epic to you? I know why it was to me, but I'm more curious to you. I did watch some heroic PTR testing of Sylvanas and it certainly looked like there were more than 5 mechanics and multiple transition phases/room changes, but hard to tell from the video I saw what they were or what they did.



    How do you know this to state this so matter of factly? Is this publicly available information I wasn't aware of? We do know factually that FF14's had a larger dev team than WoW's for several expansions, although they have historically had less battle designers, a constraint that Yoshi P has complained about significantly, not that he doesn't want to hire more, simply that there aren't anymore to hire who speak Japanese apparently.
    That was kinda my original point. If you are used to FFXIV fights, WoW fights look boring. If you are used to WoW fights, FFXIV fights look boring. Look being the important part. Both of them are pretty fucking hard when you are inside them but in diffferent ways.

    I guess my problem with the Sylvanas fight is that the mechanics don't seem all that creative.

    As for the second part: He said so in an interview. Like they flat out asked why we don't have a transmog log like WoW. And he said he would love to do that if he had the same resources as WoW. Either funding or resources, don't remember the exact wording. There are a lot of things he wants to do but cant.

  14. #734
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Besides the RNG in WoW fights, one big design thing I've noticed is that in WoW boss fights, both tanks are almost always tanking something, be it the boss or adds. Whereas in FFXIV, for 90% of the fight you have one tank not tanking anything. He just occasionally helps mitigate for the other tank. Otherwise he's useless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As for "epic boss fights", I think Steps of Faith, is pretty memorable, though it is admittedly a more WoW-esque boss fight and FFXIV never really did anything like it again.

    Otherwise, I think the "epicness" of FFXIV fights comes less down to design, and more of the presentation in terms of graphics, music timing, and cutscenes. Susano and Varis have the cool spectacle where you have a tank standing up and holding back the boss' sword with all of their might while the DPS race to burn down the add. Tsukiyomi has a pretty nice intermission phase for storytelling purposes/atmosphere. Emerald Weapon has a really cool intermission cutscene where you pretty much flashback to the conquest of Terncliff 20 years ago, with the second phase of that boss fight taking place in the flashback with the whole scene tinged gold and there are buildings on blue cerlueam fire. It would have been more atmospheric if you had to run through this village to reach the boss at the end. Hades has a dramatic second phase where the screen turns black and the music fades out... and then wham, the chorus kicks in and the darkness is sucked up and the true final boss emerges. Seat of Sacrifice has a decent intermission cutscene. Again, none of this is really fight design stuff, just presentation.

    The only WoW fight I can think of that had similar dramatic presentation comparable to a FFXIV fight was Garrosh (where occasionally you are sucked into one of Garrosh's visions) and Killrogg (where you get sucked into a vision of your own death. Sadly that never happened in Legion. You lied to me Blizzard!). That said, WoW fights also have voice acted dialogue which makes the fights feel more climatic (it's very hard to read the dialogue boxes in FFXIV while also trying to look at the AoEs on the ground and your rotation).

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  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    As for the second part: He said so in an interview. Like they flat out asked why we don't have a transmog log like WoW. And he said he would love to do that if he had the same resources as WoW. Either funding or resources, don't remember the exact wording. There are a lot of things he wants to do but cant.
    In fairness, that's a pretty common method developers use to dismiss a question. It's not technically false - if we had infinite resources we could do anything! - but it also often just means they don't think it's a priority and don't plan on doing anything. But saying that doesn't score you any points with the players.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2021-06-06 at 06:33 PM.

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY SAID THAT?! Holy shit. I hope the people that say that stretched before all those mental gymnastics.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't see how you can say this in earnest. the raid design in WoW is child's play compared to everything I've experienced in FFXIV.
    You need good memory in xiv, but you need to be good at reacting in WoW. One has RNG built in mechanics, guess which.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    You need good memory in xiv, but you need to be good at reacting in WoW. One has RNG built in mechanics, guess which.
    I agree that FFXIV encounters are definitely more taxing mentally, it's almost like doing math. I've gotten through WoW encounters on pure adrenaline some times, but I find that more exhausting. After a progression night in WoW I feel more exhausted physically, in FFXIV it's more the brain that runs out of juice.
    But I don't think that the FFXIV encounters are harder. Equal maybe but definitely not harder. They're difficult in different ways to it's hard to compare them really.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    You need good memory in xiv, but you need to be good at reacting in WoW. One has RNG built in mechanics, guess which.
    You can faceroll through a lot of WoW's mechanics. FFXIV is nowhere near as forgiving.

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by lockblock View Post
    I'm sure this one has been beaten more than a dead horse but the biggest problem I have is that final is in the name but it never is the final one.
    It was supposed to be, the first one. But, turns out it was successful so it keeps coming back.

  20. #740
    The thing about discussing difficulty is that people go back and forth about this and that...but ultimately, clear times in XIV tend to be extremely short now for new content. And it's not even hardcore world first people clearing them that early. Even pugs start clearing savage in fairly short order.

    So it's difficult to take claims that they're equal - or that XIV is even harder - too seriously. Difficulty might be hard to quantify objectively, but clear times tell a lot of the story.

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