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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    If you wipe on a boss in Ultimate raids in FFXIV, you have to start all over again. So if you beat two bosses and wiped on the third, you have to defeat those two bosses AGAIN. There is nothing like that in WoW.
    You reclear all phases of raid boss in WoW even if you wipe on last phase, so this argument makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by Nootz View Post
    Mythic Tomb of Soakgeras would like a word with you.
    Bruh you all keep bringing tomb of sargeras as the only fucking example whereas in FFXIV every single raid follows this philosophy. Thats not to say the raids are harder on average. Having raided in both games I think on average they are on almost equal footing when factoring in ultimates.
    An ultimate comparison in my opinion cannot be made as both games follow entirely different philosophies in fight design.
    WoW follows faster paced fights but with WAAAAAAY less mechanics in terms of numbers but has the element of rng where often times you need to play reactively and adjust to a situation. To compensate, rotations are usually simpler and the APM that people were boasting about before means jack. Prot pala in full gear has the highest APM and the rotation is a fucking joke its all due to haste.
    FFXIV has slower paced fights with a large number of mechanics nearly all of which are scripted. You have to learn the fight by heart and because you play proactively rather than reactively, the fights are designed in such a way that one persons mistake usually leads to an instant wipe. For the average player this often slows down progress quite a lot. Ultimates are also very difficult fights and there are no addons to assist you in XIV.
    At the end of the day to me both felt similar. Depending on the tier sometimes one or the other felt harded. I have now stopped doing mythic in WoW after 6/10 nathria not because it was too had but because maintaining a mythic roster in WoW can be a nightmare and after my guild transfering to Horde I had no desire to go through that process again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    You reclear all phases of raid boss in WoW even if you wipe on last phase, so this argument makes no sense.
    The average boss in WoW does not last 16 minutes so its not the same argument.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    You reclear all phases of raid boss in WoW even if you wipe on last phase, so this argument makes no sense.
    ....Did you even bother to read what I'm saying? Bosses have multiple phases in FFXIV too. Except unlike WoW, if you fuck up a boss halfway into an Ultimate raid, you have to start over completely. It would be like killing all bosses up to Council of Blood in CN but then you wipe on council so you have to start at the beginning of the raid and kill every single boss up to council again just to attempt council again.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    The average boss in WoW does not last 16 minutes so its not the same argument.
    Last bosses tend to be on the longer side, e.g. Garrosh's first clear was over 15 minutes long. Also cut out cutscenes and fights will be much shorter.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Bruh you all keep bringing tomb of sargeras as the only fucking example whereas in FFXIV every single raid follows this philosophy. Thats not to say the raids are harder on average. Having raided in both games I think on average they are on almost equal footing when factoring in ultimates.
    An ultimate comparison in my opinion cannot be made as both games follow entirely different philosophies in fight design.
    WoW follows faster paced fights but with WAAAAAAY less mechanics in terms of numbers but has the element of rng where often times you need to play reactively and adjust to a situation. To compensate, rotations are usually simpler and the APM that people were boasting about before means jack. Prot pala in full gear has the highest APM and the rotation is a fucking joke its all due to haste.
    FFXIV has slower paced fights with a large number of mechanics nearly all of which are scripted. You have to learn the fight by heart and because you play proactively rather than reactively, the fights are designed in such a way that one persons mistake usually leads to an instant wipe. For the average player this often slows down progress quite a lot. Ultimates are also very difficult fights and there are no addons to assist you in XIV.
    At the end of the day to me both felt similar. Depending on the tier sometimes one or the other felt harded. I have now stopped doing mythic in WoW after 6/10 nathria not because it was too had but because maintaining a mythic roster in WoW can be a nightmare and after my guild transfering to Horde I had no desire to go through that process again.

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    The average boss in WoW does not last 16 minutes so its not the same argument.
    Bruh you getting defensive over nothing. I like FFXIV but you can't throw the "wow doesn't do this" out there when it does. It isn't only mythic Tomb but it was definitely the worst offender and that's why it keeps getting brought up.

    You lose an immunity on Mythic Nzoth you're fucked. Mythic Xanesh literally has a "you fuck up once and the raid wipes" mechanic with the soccer balls.

    I'm not bashing either game but don't throw bullshit like that around just because you're biased my dude.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    ....Did you even bother to read what I'm saying? Bosses have multiple phases in FFXIV too. Except unlike WoW, if you fuck up a boss halfway into an Ultimate raid, you have to start over completely. It would be like killing all bosses up to Council of Blood in CN but then you wipe on council so you have to start at the beginning of the raid and kill every single boss up to council again just to attempt council again.
    Except ultimate raid is one boss with multiple phases, which I clearly said.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    Having put more hours in, the quest design...it's awful. 99% of quests are just going from place to place. You never have to go into combat or use your class, maybe 5 minutes of that every 2 hours.

    I'm not saying WoW is super stellar, but at least it feels more "gameplay" oriented and not just a big drawn out visual novel. They also do try to change up the experience sometimes too in terms of questing mechanics.

    And when I brought this up in NN, I get told that quests in WoW are just like FF only with a crap story...which begs the question, is the playerbase just deaf to all criticism? Because that would be another problem - the opposite of wow, where the playerbase just bitches the whole time.
    Long story short, the quests are about story, not gameplay. If you're skipping through cutscenes, you're missing the point. But yeah... those early quests, it's painful getting through all that world-building and teleporting from NPC A to NPC B and back over and over again. It's a slog.

    And a lot of FFXIV players are really defensive - they completely lack the self-awareness to recognize that the starter experience is drastically different from where the game is now.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Long story short, the quests are about story, not gameplay. If you're skipping through cutscenes, you're missing the point.
    If the story in ARR was any good I doubt people would bitch. It's just anime bullshit, and their insistence on using faux old English only makes it worse.
    The whole problem would have been solved by not forcing players to do the story to progress their characters. It's one thing WoW did much better - there's a story, and if you like it it's all there for you. If you don't like it just ignore it and get on with collecting bear asses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    If you wipe on a boss in Ultimate raids in FFXIV, you have to start all over again. So if you beat two bosses and wiped on the third, you have to defeat those two bosses AGAIN. There is nothing like that in WoW.
    That does not sound fun in the least bit to experience tbh. In a single player setting, for sure, but a raid environment? Nah

    Not saying WoW raids are great either, but that kind of unforgiveness essentially removes the "fun" aspect. my 2 cents

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    If the story in ARR was any good I doubt people would bitch. It's just anime bullshit, and their insistence on using faux old English only makes it worse.
    The whole problem would have been solved by not forcing players to do the story to progress their characters. It's one thing WoW did much better - there's a story, and if you like it it's all there for you. If you don't like it just ignore it and get on with collecting bear asses.
    It's basic-as-basic Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest drivel.

    But the next decade of storytelling allows it to pay off in a way not possible in any other medium. As high as the price of going through that typical JRPG trash was, the story that follows has paid for it a hundredfold.

    And niggling note, but very little of the "faux" old English is "faux." Most of it is simply archaic. Or should I say, "Much and more is simply archaic."

  11. #811
    Brewmaster Tommys's Avatar
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    The MSQ in ARR is dull. Even after they "revamped" it, there is still a ton of boring travel. Literally quests will tell you to run to the other side of the zone, talk to someone, than run all the back and talk to the quest giver. ARR's MSQ sucked.

    Biggest one for me: Trying to play with friends? Everyone doing the MSQ together? Too bad, huge portions of it is instanced and has to be done solo.

    FFXIV has one of the worst leveling experiences due to ARR.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    That does not sound fun in the least bit to experience tbh. In a single player setting, for sure, but a raid environment? Nah

    Not saying WoW raids are great either, but that kind of unforgiveness essentially removes the "fun" aspect. my 2 cents
    The whole point of Ultimate raids are challenge and prestige. That is where the fun and adrenaline come in. The numerical rewards are inconsequential.

  13. #813
    I'm enjoying the story, I'm not skipping it.

    That being said, from what I've read, the actual questing experience after arr and up to max level is still the same format. The storywriting is just what gets better, but the actual gameplay remains the same.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    That does not sound fun in the least bit to experience tbh. In a single player setting, for sure, but a raid environment? Nah

    Not saying WoW raids are great either, but that kind of unforgiveness essentially removes the "fun" aspect. my 2 cents
    It's designed to be a huge challenge especially since it's not required for progression.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Except ultimate raid is one boss with multiple phases, which I clearly said.
    lmfao that's utterly false. Ultimate Alexander has 4 bosses, Weapon's refrain has 5, and unending coil of bahamut has three.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It's designed to be a huge challenge especially since it's not required for progression.

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    lmfao that's utterly false. Ultimate Alexander has 4 bosses, Weapon's refrain has 5, and unending coil of bahamut has three.
    Heroic (now called Mythic) Sha of Fear was a 20+ minute fight. If you wipe in the Heroic only phase you have to start over. It's the same principle. FFXIV feels different because it's literally different bosses per phase but it's like that fight. Heroic only phase was nothing at all like the normal fight.

    The only reason wow bosses have odd/crazy mechanics is because blizzard has to design around add-ons like bossmods and weak auras. And that's their own fault. They can't just go back on that now after over a decade whereas FF can do more dance bosses because you don't have bigwigs timers to watch for abilities.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    I'm enjoying the story, I'm not skipping it.

    That being said, from what I've read, the actual questing experience after arr and up to max level is still the same format. The storywriting is just what gets better, but the actual gameplay remains the same.
    Eh, it's better paced. There's a better dungeons/trials to quest ratio. But yeah, same "run around" format. But I would argue that adding more Kill 12 wyverns (0/12)! objectives would just bog down the experience. They don't exactly do "blended" content in FFXIV - everything is pretty strictly regimented in its purpose. That can be a good thing or a bad thing.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Nootz View Post
    Heroic (now called Mythic) Sha of Fear was a 20+ minute fight. If you wipe in the Heroic only phase you have to start over. It's the same principle. FFXIV feels different because it's literally different bosses per phase but it's like that fight. Heroic only phase was nothing at all like the normal fight.

    The only reason wow bosses have odd/crazy mechanics is because blizzard has to design around add-ons like bossmods and weak auras. And that's their own fault. They can't just go back on that now after over a decade whereas FF can do more dance bosses because you don't have bigwigs timers to watch for abilities.
    Once again, you're completely wrong and that's a terrible comparison. When you wipe on Sha of Fear, you just have to start at the beginning of the fight. If you wipe on a boss in an Ultimate raid you have to start at the beginning of the entire instance. It's nowhere near the same thing.

  18. #818
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    You know that guy you really don't like but everyone does. The guy you cannot place why you dislike him, he hasn't done anything wrong he seems nice and people like him but you don't and you have no idea why. He is just one of those people you are never going to like and nothing is going to change that despite the best attempts to get on with him....

    that's me getting into FFXIV :P

    I have tried. Many times. Everything people like about the game I do not share the same sentiment, I don't like the graphic style it feels like the screen has been smeared with Vaseline, I do not have any interest in the characters or story (while the story structure is good for an MMO), or the world, the music while nice isn't what I would like or want in a fantasy game in fact it takes me out of the game and is distracting. I prefer my ambience music in fantasy. The combat is smooth but the sound design, good lord why doesn't everything sound like someone is juggling coins constantly. The world has no sense of wonder like WoW did when I first played it.

    I quit WoW back in January but there is no way that FFXIV is going to be that replacement I keep punishing myself every time I pick up FFXIV because I swear I am going to like it but every time I just groan. It feels like homework that I do not want to do and that I am doing it because I feel like I have to. There is no fun in it for me.

    Maybe an MMO will come along one day that will spark my interest but none so far seem to want to replace WoW or even just be a good game in general. And no I am not interested in Ashes of creation that game already looks dated.
    Last edited by Orby; 2021-06-07 at 09:06 PM.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Once again, you're completely wrong and that's a terrible comparison. When you wipe on Sha of Fear, you just have to start at the beginning of the fight. If you wipe on a boss in an Ultimate raid you have to start at the beginning of the entire instance. It's nowhere near the same thing.
    What exactly are you talking about? The raid instance is only the one boss.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Once again, you're completely wrong and that's a terrible comparison. When you wipe on Sha of Fear, you just have to start at the beginning of the fight. If you wipe on a boss in an Ultimate raid you have to start at the beginning of the entire instance. It's nowhere near the same thing.
    So the entire instance is the "boss" then? The videos I'm finding are about 20 minutes with multiple boss names in the chapters which I'm assuming is when the fight changes. How is a different boss coming in different than a new phase in a wow raid?

    i'm genuinely asking yet you're coming at me like I'm shitting on FF which I haven't done one time. I've only ever mythic raided on wow and never experienced FF high end.

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