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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Once again, you're completely wrong and that's a terrible comparison. When you wipe on Sha of Fear, you just have to start at the beginning of the fight. If you wipe on a boss in an Ultimate raid you have to start at the beginning of the entire instance. It's nowhere near the same thing.
    You're being silly now.

    Just because the fight involves a different model appearing to fight doesn't somehow make the one fight equal to an entire raid instance in other games. It's one fight. You wipe, you restart it. That's it.

    Seriously, all this dick-waving about one game being so much harder and tougher and blah blah than the other is getting ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nootz View Post
    So the entire instance is the "boss" then? The videos I'm finding are about 20 minutes with multiple boss names in the chapters which I'm assuming is when the fight changes. How is a different boss coming in different than a new phase in a wow raid?

    i'm genuinely asking yet you're coming at me like I'm shitting on FF which I haven't done one time. I've only ever mythic raided on wow and never experienced FF high end.
    Yes, the "instance" is literally a circle in which the boss sits. You enter the area, engage the boss, and fight the encounter. If you wipe, you just reappear in that circle and restart the fight. It's one single fight, no trash clearing, no multiple encounters, nothing. So every time he says you "have to re-do the entire instance" he's literally saying that you reappear in that one circular area where the boss is and have to restart the one fight.

    (Think Malygos, pretty much. You don't say that you "have to do the entire instance again" when you wiped to Malygos, do you? That would sound silly.)

    They're being ridiculous simply because of the usual MMO tribalism nonsense.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2021-06-07 at 09:56 PM.

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    The only direction this discussion can head in is now subjective.
    You linked bad data that skews in favor or FF here... Rogalicus already covered that though.

    Again, the fastest jobs in FF have similar APM to the slowest in wow.

    I still say that Ninja feels faster than anything WoW has thrown at me. High APM in WoW generally translates to spamming whatever button is lighting up at the moment. High APM in FFXIV requires your attention. I'd say it's most akin to playing an Affliction Warlock during MoP. Timing is necessary. Positional abilities exist. It doesn't come down to spamming whichever button is off cooldown a million times a second to make sure they go through.
    This is the most biased nonsense take I've ever seen in my life.

    I can over simply like this too and say that most FF jobs are just press the light up 1-2-3 button rotation that could've easily just been 1 spam button + some side spells.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  3. #823
    My biggest problems with FF14 is the community, the shit is like a cult, it's insane

    You can bring up a number of design decisions, such as them culling classes repeatedly to make them homogeneous like AST/SCH, how boring healing design even is, how all the melee play the same except a few differences, how PLD/GNB are literally pretty much the same class, how bosses are just generally fancy rehashes of previous iterations of mechanics and they don't ever break from any mold

    How every piece of content they've released in Shadowbringers has catered to the hyper casual (flying in ARR, MSQ rework, Fishing Trawler, Gallery mode for dungeons) and they keep cutting what little content they have for PVE (1 dungeon per patch is pathetic, granted dungeons are just there for tome farming but still)

    The way they do metrics (accounts created over subs) is also indicative of their designs, they don't give a fuck if you're a long term player, they care that they get people to make an account and play through the MSQ, and if you buy a house you're stuck subbed anyway so they don't give a fuck if you're hooked, and can drip feed you content every 8 months

    If Blizzard tried any of this shit, they'd be drawn and quartered, but it's okay because Yoshi-P goes on stage and talks politely (hint: Japanese culture is very "polite")

    Imagine if Ion went on stage and told everyone the reason they time gate content months at a time is because "you'd clear it too fast"

    Nevermind the rampant ERP in a Teen rated game, people literally advertising brothels in Limsa on not even a Crystal server, and all the harassment that gets swept under the rug for the guise of "Great Community!!!" shit, Scottzone, multiple streamers, etc get targeted harrassed for the smallest shit, death threats, doxxing, the whole nine yards

    I love FFXIV, but the developers are so out of touch with the playerbase and people drown out criticisms with a false reality that the game is doing well, Retail WoW dwarfs it in playerbase and I have a sneaking suspicion that even Classic as niche as it is, also does

    Square also doesn't ban bots, so people are botting on their main account 24/7 and never get any kind of ban, I know this from personal experience
    Last edited by Saintlel; 2021-06-07 at 10:22 PM.

  4. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    That question can be applied to any game. You can design a game to only have one button if you want but that can get really boring. I made really bad choices in the beginning of World of Warcraft. I played a mage in vanilla and it bored me so much because I only had one button to press so in TBC I changed to a warlock which turned out to also only have one button. I had to play a suboptimal spec going fire instead of shadow just to avoid boredom. I think a combat system is better when you can't turn your brain off, when you have to pay attention and engage.
    Stipulated, but there's certainly wiggle room in between. I haven't played retail WoW since Legion, but I'm enjoying my super casual leveling in TBC Classic and I feel like my level 34 Warrior is at least as interactive as my level 80 XIV Warrior, if not moreso. Stance dancing is common while leveling as Prot - most commonly to tap Revenge and then back to Battle Stance, but when I've grouped with others to knock out a bunch of quests, I'll also swap to Berserker so I can use Intercept to chain pull more efficiently. It's certainly better than the questing experience in XIV, and I'm still missing large portions of my toolkit.

    I'm sure that once I make it to 70 and t4 raids in six months, I'll find the raiding experience to be dramatically inferior to even normal mode raids in XIV. But I'm not going to spend even most of my in-game time in either game raiding, it will be spent doing "everything but raiding." So I think I'd rather have a system designed for "everything but raiding" first, and raiding second.

    Which is probably why XIV is just always going to be a peer pressure game - I'll play it while my friends are playing and badgering me to play, and quit as soon as they're no longer badgering me into playing and I've exhausted the content I actually enjoy (which tends to be a few hours per 3-month patch cycle unless it's a new raid patch cycle.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    The lack of WoW-like addons and the cruddy healing UI was my main sticking point with FFXIV. The other was that I felt that they'd gone overboard in making rotations 'interesting' by adding lots of off-GCD spells and also made the jobs all feel 'samey' because they seemed to use a similar sort of build-and-spend system (and last time I tried FFXIV was to escape Legion, which had also made everything into build-spend).

    As for the community being nicer, I only ever participated in-game, and back in late ARR and Heavensward it was fairly nice and quite chatty, though I did have a run in with someone who was quite nasty about my lack of DPS as a healer. It got a bit heated when I replied that it'd be higher if I wasn't healing them constantly because they stood in all the mechanics. When I came back later everyone was much less chatty. I wonder if SE's policy on being nice in chat or getting the banhammer has become more of the thing over time.
    XIV's UI is functional but it does feel dated.

    I don't think the lack of WeakAuras, DBM, BigWigs, etc is a negative, though. I think those mods fucking **RUIN** WoW and force the developers into an uncomfortable position of either "assume everyone uses these mods and design mechanics that will be almost incomprehensible without them" or "assume everyone uses vanilla UI and design mechanics that will be a complete joke with mods active." The horse broke out of the barn ages ago, and really who gives a shit about retail WoW in the first place, but I do think they should have put their foot down and ruled out those kinds of mods back when. I think XIV's total lack of such mods (yeah yeah cactbot and ACT plugins exist but they're generally frowned upon by most players) is a huge mark in its favor.

    From a pure raiding perspective, I think XIV utterly crushes WoW. But there's just not very much of that raiding content (four fights every six months...), and their rigid game design ethics and outdated server architecture seemingly force them to copy-paste a number of mechanics from fight to fight. So while the overall experience is good, the moment to moment gameplay can feel lackluster at times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
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  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by Saintlel View Post
    My biggest problems with FF14 is the community, the shit is like a cult, it's insane
    That happens in every MMO community and it does drive me insane. But it's not unique to XIV. (GW2 might be the most cult-ish MMO community I've seen.)

    It does drive me nuts, though. You can't have a discussion with the devotees of one MMO or another.

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    That happens in every MMO community and it does drive me insane. But it's not unique to XIV. (GW2 might be the most cult-ish MMO community I've seen.)

    It does drive me nuts, though. You can't have a discussion with the devotees of one MMO or another.
    It's on another level for XIV imo, people are in complete denial

    I've at least seen some detractors to GW2, having GW1 as a better game before it helps a bit

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    (yeah yeah cactbot and ACT plugins exist but they're generally frowned upon by most players)
    I don't know if there's a datacenter difference or anything, but as someone who raided both in a static and pugging, this is not true at all

  7. #827
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    If being toxic gets you banned it's not gonna magically make toxic people nice, it'll make them quiet.
    Sounds like a win to me.
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark One View Post
    Sounds like a win to me.
    I'd rather have them shit talk me to my face than try to dox and harrass other socials, like has happened to me personally and someone else I know

  9. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintlel View Post
    I'd rather have them shit talk me to my face than try to dox and harrass other socials, like has happened to me personally and someone else I know
    I would rather they not be toxic and deal with their issues in a mature way - But because that will never happen, them being invisible from the community is a win.

    You must make people very angry for them to go to such great lengths as doxxing you.
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark One View Post
    I would rather they not be toxic and deal with their issues in a mature way - But because that will never happen, them being invisible from the community is a win.

    You must make people very angry for them to go to such great lengths as doxxing you.
    Replacing them in a static because they kept wiping us on Icelit and Light's Rampant

    Yeah, totally my fault, nice victim blaming bud

    You're part of the issue

  11. #831
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintlel View Post
    You're part of the issue
    If by part of the issue, you mean I am happy with toxic people being suppressed in the game, then yes, I agree.

    Wow, ok, that is a totally normal thing to replace someone for. It sounds like you had an unusual extreme experience. Sorry that happened to you.
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by Saintlel View Post
    I'd rather have them shit talk me to my face than try to dox and harrass other socials, like has happened to me personally and someone else I know
    Your point is moot when upfront toxic players can do what these "silent" toxic players apparently do.

    I swear people who are repeatedly targetted by these toxic players are toxic themselves or just handle things badly, because in my 15 years MMOing, I've never been the target of anything like this and when someone is being a dick, I just ignore them. I'll just say my blocklist in WoW was much, MUCH bigger.

  13. #833
    My problems with FF XIV were as follows:

    (1) When I first tried it, my computer was inadequate to run it. I was getting just a couple of fps, and immediately gave up. I have a faster computer now , but...

    (2) From what I've heard, the rotations can be complex. I don't want that, even if they are slow.

    (3) And also from what I've heard, it's a slog to get to current end game now, even if they've sped it up some. Not really interested.

    I hope all who are enjoying it continue to do so.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    (2) From what I've heard, the rotations can be complex. I don't want that, even if they are slow.
    Not all. There are some easier ones but they're few and far between. It's also highly individual. A lot of people think Dancer is easy, I don't, a lot of people think that Monk is hard, I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    (3) And also from what I've heard, it's a slog to get to current end game now, even if they've sped it up some. Not really interested.
    Yeah you need to play FFXIV like it's a video game in order to enjoy it. If you play it like it's world of warcraft you're going to have a horrible time all the way up to lvl cap and every time new story patches comes out.
    The journey is the game, endgame is what you do while you wait for the journey to continue.

  15. #835
    I am Murloc! Kuja's Avatar
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    It's hard to say. I have tried it maybe 3 times, and never played for more than a month. And last time I actually made more progress. But I got burned out trying to do all the required quests before I can go into the first expansion, and when I finally was able to, I had lost interest. There's just something there that makes it happen everytime, but I can't quite tell what. Only other bad thing is the over complicated rotations every job has. Always have to google what to press and in what order. Easy to learn, but googling shouldn't be necessary.

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  16. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    My problems with FF XIV were as follows:

    (1) When I first tried it, my computer was inadequate to run it. I was getting just a couple of fps, and immediately gave up. I have a faster computer now , but...

    (2) From what I've heard, the rotations can be complex. I don't want that, even if they are slow.

    (3) And also from what I've heard, it's a slog to get to current end game now, even if they've sped it up some. Not really interested.

    I hope all who are enjoying it continue to do so.
    I'm terrible at most DPS jobs in FFXIV but I've found some success with Dancer, Bard, and Red Mage, so if you ever give FFXIV another try maybe keep those jobs in mind.

    As for "getting to end game being a slog"... if you're main goal is to "get to end game quickly" then I'd say you should pass on FFXIV entirely and never look back. The Main Story IS the game. Rushing through it looking for some sort of mind blowing experience in the endgame will only lead to disappointment in my opinion. There's no reason to rush to endgame in FFXIV. It's not terribly difficult to get into even if you get to that point in the middle of an expansion.

    High quality crafted gear for whatever tier the expansion is in when you hit endgame in FFXIV is a quick and easy option to get you "raid ready." You can buy it, or craft it yourself if you're into crafting, and jump right into the endgame without feeling like you're under geared or being carried (as long as you know how to play whatever job you choose to focus on). Gear matters to a point but the most challenging content in the game awards only cosmetics to show off and no player power. If you clear the hardest content in the game you'll get some shiny glamours (transmog) and a fancy title but you aren't going to be significantly more powerful than most other players at max level.

    The mindset of rushing to endgame is hard to break out of if you've been playing most other MMO's, but if you can, and if you are willing/interested in immersing yourself into the story and not just clicking through all the dialogue without bothering to get into it, then you can have a great time in FFXIV. On the flip side, if you're adamantly in the camp of "the game doesn't start till endgame" then playing FFXIV is going to be a big let down. Doubly so if you're looking for any kind of meaningful pvp.

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Saintlel View Post
    My biggest problems with FF14 is the community, the shit is like a cult, it's insane
    While the FF14 community is very bad in many ways, the cult-like mind is not much different than WoW in that regard. At least in FF14, I can have a conversation with people without them constantly referencing streamers as if they're the body of knowledge for the game. "According to *****, you're doing that wrong" as if that streamer writes the standards lol. That's one reason I don't watch streamers... many people stopped thinking for themselves. I know some people who defend streamers compared them to "the new TV" but even back in the day or today, I never hear people reference people on TV like that.

    How every piece of content they've released in Shadowbringers has catered to the hyper casual (flying in ARR, MSQ rework, Fishing Trawler, Gallery mode for dungeons) and they keep cutting what little content they have for PVE (1 dungeon per patch is pathetic, granted dungeons are just there for tome farming but still)
    Casuals are the bulk of the people who play. While yes, 1 dungeon per patch is pathetic, having less and less devs begins to show. They should make dungeons more meaningful. I can level super fast using PoD as a DPS, so why would I wait 15 min in queue for the same amount of exp.

    and all the harassment that gets swept under the rug for the guise of "Great Community!!!" shit, Scottzone, multiple streamers, etc get targeted harrassed for the smallest shit, death threats, doxxing, the whole nine yards
    I covered this earlier in this thread. The people who sweep it under the rug are either #1) the exact people who do this (harass, berate, etc) #2) still in the new/shiny phase #3) flat-out lying #4) do not pay attention or #5) refuse to view things without rose-tinted glasses.

    Square also doesn't ban bots, so people are botting on their main account 24/7 and never get any kind of ban, I know this from personal experience
    This wouldn't surprise me at all. I recently turned off my subscription to FFXI after returning from a many year break. The amount of botting and use of third party addons that happens is absolutely staggering. All these people who were no-name nobodys or were known to be crap players are now revered as "top tier players". Then you find out that they bot their success and you think "wow, this is what people call "top tier players" now?"

    Sad part is, they've done it for years and even if you report them non-stop, they'll never be banned.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I'm terrible at most DPS jobs in FFXIV but I've found some success with Dancer, Bard, and Red Mage, so if you ever give FFXIV another try maybe keep those jobs in mind.
    It's sad how we see a job and not only does the theme and aesthetic appeal to you... you just end up not being very good at it. It's nice to find a job you end up being good at but not as good when it's not that fun to you.

  18. #838
    I've been playing MMOs for the past 20 years (starting with Anarchy Online back in 2001), tried pretty much all notable ones and enjoyed most of them.
    I should mention that I was never a fan of the Korean/Asian flashy MMOs or the big boobs/butts out styles - they just don't seem right to me, indicating they have to compensate for something else.

    The only one I haven't tried until this year was Final Fantasy... there's a few reasons for it but I won't bore you with that.
    I set aside all my preconceptions, created a trial account and installed the game.

    After playing for a few days, I was actually amazed; some things I thought I wouldn't like, I actually did and other things I just discovered and ended up not liking them but those would have been impossible to predict, unless you play the game.
    I'm currently level 56, playing a Paladin, blue Havok gear and just bought the Augmented Ironworks sword & shield. Just finished the ARR story and heading into the next expansion... if I can make it.

    First of all, my experience with other players in game has been a very good one. At the first glance, the community seems to be much nicer that the WoW one; granted, I only played a few days so far.
    The instances I tanked so far seemed very simple to me, have died once in the last ARR raid (The Praetorium) but that's because I haven't read anything upon it beforehand and the other players were rushing like crazy.
    It was explained to me during the long unskippable cutscenes that they have already done it hundreds of times without the ability to skip the cutscenes. This to me seems incredible obnoxious, to have to go through that every single time. Only makes sense that everyone rushes through it, pulling everything.
    Overall, what I've seen so far in terms of dungeons felt easy... it also took me a bit to get used to the fact that AoE is "imaged" - as in, if you are out of the AoE circle while it's on, you can go back in right after it disappears and you won't take the damage even though that's when the damage actually happens - very weird and unnatural design.

    The graphics - I actually like the engine even if it's older, doesn't bother me at all.
    I do not like the seizure-inducing skill animation lights/effects, over the top.
    The music is very nice for an MMO, especially while leveling.
    The GCD feels weird and makes the fighting feel slow, I can get used to it but it's not ideal, plus you can't "clip" skills at all.
    The questing in general feels very bland: go there, come back; go there again, come back again. Sometimes even without a valid reason as I could have done that action the first time I went there. All allegedly for the story... right...

    What is a deal breaker for me though is the naming convention and the animations - there is no way an adult was in change with those! I mean, I know they were, I just can't believe it; they feel/sound/look ridiculously childish. Limsa Lominsa? Can anyone explain to me this fascination about both names sounding pretty much the same?
    I saw a lot of players in game following the same trend: Luna Paluna, Tiki Latiki .... I must be missing something.

    My character is a 2m tall/big Hyur paladin tank but in cutscenes I have the facial expressions of a 12 year old emo teenager?! Jumping high with my hands up and both my feet in the air like I'm 7 and just got my first puppy?!
    The main story characters in a Japanese anime speaking with British / Scottish accents!? Please....

    I get that FFXIV is all about the main story but after reading everything until lvl 56, I came to the conclusion that a lot of it it's just blah blah and could have been accomplished in much less words, a lot of it is irrelevant and frankly just over explained childish stuff meant to keep you connected when it does completely the opposite. I started to skip it because it's just long, boring and tbh, irrelevant.

    How could anyone take Alphinaud serious as a leader, is beyond me.

    The "mail man" is a chubby eyeless plushy which my little girl would find cute...

    There's an optional questline involving a "detective" and his associate girl which I've tried to see what it's about and from an adult perspective, it's very cringey.

    Overall, it's a nice game, definitely better than I was expecting but it's not my cup of tea and especially the Asian culture is something I cannot understand or get used to. I'm more towards the witty / sarcastic type of humor, maybe I'm just too old for some things.

    Judging by the amounts of people playing it, there's definitely a market for it. Many people enjoy it and that's fine, we all have different opinions and like different things.

    I loved Guild Wars 1 and played it for a long time; GW 2 - not so much... they've done something with it which I didn't like and to date, I'm still not sure what. Looks like there are only some types of Asian themes that I don't get along with.

    Also, having female characters with large boobs, half naked, bunny ears and cat tails but not allowing/designing any sort of romance between your character and an NPC in the main story, is VERY hypocritical and psychologically speaking, points towards forbidden inner desires. Says quite a lot about a society.

    Anyway, I doubt everyone will read my whole post but the conclusion is: FFXIV and WoW are very different MMORPGs having different targets therefore one cannot say which one is better because that would be a very subjective opinion.
    “Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein”
    -------------------------------------------------

  19. #839
    The one thing that really bothers me is getting stopped in the MSQ because I need to do a dungeon and have to farm the tomestones to purchase the required ilvl for it. It really annoys me whenever a dungeon comes up in the MSQ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
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  20. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangris View Post
    The one thing that really bothers me is getting stopped in the MSQ because I need to do a dungeon and have to farm the tomestones to purchase the required ilvl for it. It really annoys me whenever a dungeon comes up in the MSQ.
    Yeah, I've run into this roadblock before. They definitely roll out the content with the expectation that you've caught up a reasonable amount - when you hit the post-game fresh, some hurdles seem pretty insurmountable. That being said... join a guild and/or buy some crafted gear. Eureka and Bozja have more-or-less freebie sets, too, at 70 and 80. Hitting those break points is can be pretty simple once you know where to look.

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