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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangris View Post
    The one thing that really bothers me is getting stopped in the MSQ because I need to do a dungeon and have to farm the tomestones to purchase the required ilvl for it. It really annoys me whenever a dungeon comes up in the MSQ.
    I stopped playing at the end of Stormblood and picked the game back up a month ago. I had capped tombstones so I picked up some gear and doing the MSQ, the gear rewards kept me where I needed to be for the dungeons and that's playing a tank.

  2. #842
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Eh. We're both in the wrong, here. It's actually pretty comparable, erring on the side of WoW, but still with considerable overlap.

    .
    Eyyy ninja at the top as it should be. Unsurprisingly the most fun I've had in WoW was with a brewmaster. I'm seeing a pattern here. Then again for me class fantasy helped alot. Ninjutsu for the former, fire breathing and keg smashes for the latter.

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It's sad how we see a job and not only does the theme and aesthetic appeal to you... you just end up not being very good at it. It's nice to find a job you end up being good at but not as good when it's not that fun to you.
    I stay away from games where I can work around an apparent design intent that doesn't appeal to me. Those games tend to later change to squash the workarounds.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

  4. #844
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I stopped playing at the end of Stormblood and picked the game back up a month ago. I had capped tombstones so I picked up some gear and doing the MSQ, the gear rewards kept me where I needed to be for the dungeons and that's playing a tank.
    I think they are getting better at this. For all the things HW got right (still the best expansion when it comes to content) it was pretty anal how level requirements were spaced out. Like you end a quest with Y'shtola in Idillyshire and you have to grind a level before you can talk to her again outside the city gates. Like what the actual fuck? And you have like two more talk quests before you even have to go into the next dungeon so why the level gap there? It was fucking retarded. They are a lot better at it now. Granted if you sometimes let you sub laps for months, like me (financial reason, I love the game) it can take some time to get back on track.

  5. #845
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretorian View Post
    What is a deal breaker for me though is the naming convention and the animations - there is no way an adult was in change with those! I mean, I know they were, I just can't believe it; they feel/sound/look ridiculously childish. Limsa Lominsa? Can anyone explain to me this fascination about both names sounding pretty much the same?
    I saw a lot of players in game following the same trend: Luna Paluna, Tiki Latiki .... I must be missing something.

    The main story characters in a Japanese anime speaking with British / Scottish accents!? Please....
    How could anyone take Alphinaud serious as a leader, is beyond me.
    The childish naming conventions are mostly used by lalafell who look like potato children, so it's kinda fitting

    If you'd like, set the voices to japanese. I'm sure the english voice actors try their best, but I feel the Japanese are just better at this. Specially for a japanese game

    And yes, Alphinaud as a leader is laughable
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  6. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    The whole point of Ultimate raids are challenge and prestige. That is where the fun and adrenaline come in. The numerical rewards are inconsequential.
    To be fair there are other ways to introduce challenge other than raw duration. I hated 16+ minute fights in WoW and I hate them even more in FF14. It's why I don't like to do the Ultimates. I love that they're hard, I hate how long they are. It's also the reason why the old gatekeeper fights were my favorite, Exdeath, Kefka, etc. It was 4 and a half minutes of enjoyably challenging mechanics at a rapid pace. In both scenarios I enjoyed their gatekeeps much better than their full halfs (although God Kefka would have won, if the fight actually had a second half and didn't just repeat again to a free kill at 50%).

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    WoW follows faster paced fights but with WAAAAAAY less mechanics in terms of numbers but has the element of rng where often times you need to play reactively and adjust to a situation.
    Definitely less, but way less? I'm surprised it was this close comparing Mythic Shriekwing to Ramuh Savage (last raid I did):

    • I count in the journal 11 total unique mechanics for Shriekwing.
    • I count for 14 unique mechanics for Ramuh.
    • For Mythic Denathrius I counted almost 40 unique mechanics.
    • For Shiva Savage I counted 42 unique mechanics.

    This isn't the best comparison though. Denathrius is a opening raid and Shiva is a second tier raid. Denathrius is an 11 minute fight and Shiva is a 14 minute fight, but I think it does highlight interest topic points if anyone wants to look into it more. Here are the sites I used for reference since I do not have an active sub at the moment:

    Ultimates are also very difficult fights and there are no addons to assist you in XIV.
    Most players who progress or do Ultimates now use addons to clear it more quickly. My group did it, my friends groups did it, and most I know did it. Most top groups literally program it while progressing on it adding the steps and phases and callouts.

    Ultimates are still stupid hard though.

    The average boss in WoW does not last 16 minutes so its not the same argument.
    Very true, but there have been bosses that long and even longer so I'd think they're likely identical in the scope of things given the infrequency of ultimates over the years. I.e. If we wiped soaking spirits on H25 LK (and we did) that was 16 minutes down the drain.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    lmfao that's utterly false. Ultimate Alexander has 4 bosses, Weapon's refrain has 5, and unending coil of bahamut has three.
    That's not how that works. If there's no new checkpoints, it's one continuous encounter. It has different adds across different phases, but they're not unique bosses. It's one boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Casuals are the bulk of the people who play. While yes, 1 dungeon per patch is pathetic, having less and less devs begins to show.
    What do you mean less and less devs? Their team has been growing consistently expansion over expansion?

  7. #847
    I don't like losing abilities when it downlevels you for content.

    The lack of damage meters means I don't know if I'm doing well or terrible. Just some sort of "par" DPS indicator for my level and whether I'm above or below it would be good. I don't care about others damage.

  8. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    And yes, Alphinaud as a leader is laughable
    Which (SPOILERS!) is ultimately the point of his entire arc in ARR...

    Alphinaud is the embodiment of everything I hate about JRPGs. Yet... he is one of my favourite characters in fiction, now. That speaks to the strength of this story. In most MMOs, the character you're introduced to is the character you're going to see for decades - no growth, no development (unless they go crazy for X plot reason). Alphinaud started as this typical, grating wunderkind and the writers took pains to show why that kind of archetype doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    I don't like losing abilities when it downlevels you for content.

    The lack of damage meters means I don't know if I'm doing well or terrible. Just some sort of "par" DPS indicator for my level and whether I'm above or below it would be good. I don't care about others damage.
    The threat meter is generally a good indicator if you're against using ACT.

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    What do you mean less and less devs? Their team has been growing consistently expansion over expansion?
    I'm sorry but I do not believe this.

  10. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    If you wipe on a boss in Ultimate raids in FFXIV, you have to start all over again. So if you beat two bosses and wiped on the third, you have to defeat those two bosses AGAIN. There is nothing like that in WoW.
    Garrosh, in the day. Long fight, many phases, and it was common to wipe on the last phase and have to do the whole damned thing over again. I'd say Arthas/Lich King in the day too, but he tended to wipe raids in any phase.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    XIV's UI is functional but it does feel dated.

    I don't think the lack of WeakAuras, DBM, BigWigs, etc is a negative, though. I think those mods fucking **RUIN** WoW and force the developers into an uncomfortable position of either "assume everyone uses these mods and design mechanics that will be almost incomprehensible without them" or "assume everyone uses vanilla UI and design mechanics that will be a complete joke with mods active." The horse broke out of the barn ages ago, and really who gives a shit about retail WoW in the first place, but I do think they should have put their foot down and ruled out those kinds of mods back when. I think XIV's total lack of such mods (yeah yeah cactbot and ACT plugins exist but they're generally frowned upon by most players) is a huge mark in its favor.

    From a pure raiding perspective, I think XIV utterly crushes WoW. But there's just not very much of that raiding content (four fights every six months...), and their rigid game design ethics and outdated server architecture seemingly force them to copy-paste a number of mechanics from fight to fight. So while the overall experience is good, the moment to moment gameplay can feel lackluster at times.
    My issue with the UI isn't with the lack of raid assists like BigWigs and DBM. I agree that allowing them has made life quite difficult for Blizzard's devs, and everyone would probably be better off if they didn't exist.

    My issue is with how you have to target players to cast spells on them. Now, as of the last time I played FFXIV (early BfA I think - probably when it became clear that flying was actually being gated again, despite being told it wasn't) macros allowing mouseover casting existed in FFXIV but my research suggested that they weren't considered very effective and it was recommended that you not use them. Maybe that was bad advice, or maybe it's changed since then, but that's what my research told me.

    In WoW I use Clique+Grid, to let me mouseover a character or their raid frame and do something like Ctrl+LMB to cast Healing Surge (for example). Addons like Vuhdo work in much the same way. Not being able to do that in FFXIV, or only being able to do so with a bazillion macros that I was given to understand are a poor solution was a game-killer when considered on top of the way the game always felt a little laggy (possibly because I'm in New Zealand, though in WoW I play on NA servers and it doesn't feel laggy) and a few other things. Also, I didn't like the way my character's main DPS job (Summoner) seemed to have changed from 'traditional affliction walrock' (DoT everything, manage DoTs, plus a few other things) to 'build, spend, some of the things are DoTs'. Also, with the relatively short DoT duration this went from being an active but not too hasty rotation to something altogether more fiddly, fussy, and timing critical. And a fair number of the spells seemed to exis just to give button bloat without adding anything to the game play.

    I tried some other jobs, but didn't have it in me to level them enough to see how they were at high level, but what I saw at lower levels didn't fill me with confidence - everything seemed to be build-spend. WoW, at least once upon a time, had many different styles of rotation (though Legion made everything into build-spend and there's still some of that in the current designs), which meant there was likely something for everyone.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It's sad how we see a job and not only does the theme and aesthetic appeal to you... you just end up not being very good at it. It's nice to find a job you end up being good at but not as good when it's not that fun to you.
    I do agree that is sad. I am fortunate that I enjoy the healing role most and excel at it in FFXIV so my main job (White Mage for now but looking at Sage in Endwalker) is both fun to play and performs well. For the DPS role I really do like Red Mage a lot. I'm not necessarily the best at it, but I perform adequately enough that I don't get kicked. And while it was a surprise to me, I also enjoy and perform well with Dancer far more than I expected to. Bard is ok. I don't dislike it, but I don't jump for joy over it either. I just find it easy to play.

    Black Mage... ugh. I despise how that job plays. It almost feels almost like a WoW arcane mage and boomkin had a baby.

    @Kalisandra
    My issue is with how you have to target players to cast spells on them. Now, as of the last time I played FFXIV (early BfA I think - probably when it became clear that flying was actually being gated again, despite being told it wasn't) macros allowing mouseover casting existed in FFXIV but my research suggested that they weren't considered very effective and it was recommended that you not use them. Maybe that was bad advice, or maybe it's changed since then, but that's what my research told me.
    I use mouseover macros to heal in FFXIV and basically emulate the Clique addon from WoW since that's what I use to heal there. I can heal just as effectively in FFXIV using mouseover macros as I do in WoW. So you might want to at least give them a try yourself to see how it feels. Trying to use macros for your dps rotation though, yea that doesn't tend to work out well in most cases. I

    If you're like me and are older and have issues with your hands, certain macros that combine oGCD skills with a spammed ability can improve your performance and you can even perform at a mediocre level with them, but they will never do as well as doing it manually. Still for me it makes an improvement in my performance with certain dps jobs so I am better off using them than not.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-06-08 at 05:09 PM.

  12. #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I think they are getting better at this. For all the things HW got right (still the best expansion when it comes to content) it was pretty anal how level requirements were spaced out. Like you end a quest with Y'shtola in Idillyshire and you have to grind a level before you can talk to her again outside the city gates. Like what the actual fuck? And you have like two more talk quests before you even have to go into the next dungeon so why the level gap there? It was fucking retarded. They are a lot better at it now. Granted if you sometimes let you sub laps for months, like me (financial reason, I love the game) it can take some time to get back on track.
    I'm a little tempted to re-sub (but I'm still playing retail WoW with my guild, I'm levelling a character in Classic TBC, and I finally bought Cyberpunk 2077, so it might not be the best time...), but I have a feeling my character is on a boat, and to progress the have to do an instance, and I'd have to leave said boat and go and do a bunch of side quests to re-learn how to play first, which seems a bit immersion-breaking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I use mouseover macros to heal in FFXIV and basically emulate the Clique addon from WoW since that's what I use to heal there. I can heal just as effectively in FFXIV using mouseover macros as I do in WoW. So you might want to at least give them a try yourself to see how it feels. Trying to use macros for your dps rotation though, yea that doesn't tend to work out well in most cases.
    When I look at XIV again (I say 'when' because it's almost certain Blizz will do something to piss me off and I'll try abandoning the WoW ship once again) I'll look into them then. I'm not interested in them for DPS, so them not working well there isn't a problem.
    If you're like me and are older and have issues with your hands, certain macros that combine oGCD skills with a spammed ability can improve your performance and you can even perform at a mediocre level with them, but they will never do as well as doing it manually. Still for me it makes an improvement in my performance with certain dps jobs so I am better off using them than not.
    My eyes have started showing their age these past few years, but my hands are still okay (for now).

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangris View Post
    The one thing that really bothers me is getting stopped in the MSQ because I need to do a dungeon and have to farm the tomestones to purchase the required ilvl for it. It really annoys me whenever a dungeon comes up in the MSQ.
    Yeah, there has always been an issue with item level gating at certian points in the MSQ - especially if you're a new/returning player mid-expansion.

    I remember bringing it up regarding a certain point in...Stormblood MSQ?...I think. There was a point where the last trial in the patch required an item level far higher than any of the previous MSQ content came close to dropping - much less requiring.

    It's jarring and frustrating to be having fun in a story only to be yanked out of it by the game saying, "Now go farm gear, lol!" even if it wasn't terribly difficult to do.

  14. #854
    What problems do I have with it? It's a weeb game. Fuck weeb games.

  15. #855
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Which (SPOILERS!) is ultimately the point of his entire arc in ARR...
    Oh, I absolutely agree!
    While Im not the biggest fan of Alphinaud, I can appreciate the growth of his character
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  16. #856
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Oh, I absolutely agree!
    While Im not the biggest fan of Alphinaud, I can appreciate the growth of his character
    The fact that I can even tolerate him is a feat unto itself. The fact that I actually felt something for him during the most recent story developments... that's a downright miracle.

    I'm old and bitter these days, so very rarely am I actually moved by any media. FFXIV is the rare game that finally has this power over me. And it had to work for it - for the better part of a decade! - to get me this invested and keep me invested. When I see throwbacks to events that happened in 2.0, it evokes the same feeling I get when I meet up with an old friend I haven't spoken with for a decade or two.

  17. #857
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I'm a little tempted to re-sub (but I'm still playing retail WoW with my guild, I'm levelling a character in Classic TBC, and I finally bought Cyberpunk 2077, so it might not be the best time...), but I have a feeling my character is on a boat, and to progress the have to do an instance, and I'd have to leave said boat and go and do a bunch of side quests to re-learn how to play first, which seems a bit immersion-breaking.
    That is very true. But unless you are a tank or a healer you shouldn't just be stuck on that boat. I think you might be at the first Stormblood dungeon by the way. If you already got that far I would recommend going till 6.0. See it to the end. With 6.1 a new story arc will begin. Hell it might even be considered a new myth arc. My involvement later depends on my satisfaction with the ending but I definitely will do 6.0

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That's an utterly asinine thing to say. Lots of people watching doesn't mean the quality of the content is actually good. Asmongold gets viewers all the time despite the fact he's a tremendous troll with shit tier streams. Reality television has massive viewership numbers despite it being garbage television.

    So saying WoW gets lots of people watching proves that it's a better designed and more difficult game is ridiculous. Because WoW definitely isn't a more difficult game by a longshot.
    Quality is completely subjective. Popularity and market appeal is not.

    There is a market for competitive wow that does not exist for FF or any other similar game. That does not mean other games are bad - someone may believe (subjectively) that it's better for the game to not appeal to that crowd. That's their opinion and that's fine.

    But objective fact is that FF does not have the same competitive scene or viewer appeal, otherwise gaming organizations would move to play it instead since it would get more views.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    get more views.
    This is the very sad and cold truth. Views are where the money is at. It doesn't matter if it's quality or not. This is the reason why people who should not be famous get famous. Bhad Bhabie, Asmongold, etc...

    Some people gain fame through infamy. Even if someone is watching you because they hate you and just wanna make a nasty comment, they're still watching you and building your traffic.

    Haters get so caught up in their hate that they do not realize they're contributing.

  20. #860
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Quality is completely subjective. Popularity and market appeal is not.

    There is a market for competitive wow that does not exist for FF or any other similar game. That does not mean other games are bad - someone may believe (subjectively) that it's better for the game to not appeal to that crowd. That's their opinion and that's fine.

    But objective fact is that FF does not have the same competitive scene or viewer appeal, otherwise gaming organizations would move to play it instead since it would get more views.
    There's also the fact that the reason there's no competitive scene is that the content just isn't up to par. Even without the big organizations and competitive scene and such, guilds generally clear the newest raid content in XIV within a day or so. (And that's just calendar time, it's even less actual playtime. Granted, some of that is due to how XIV handles wipes and repulls, but it's still relatively much less time.)

    You just can't have a big hyped up "Race to World First!" with large organizations and extremely hardcore people with content of that caliber. It'd be like an even worse Emerald Nightmare all over again, every single tier.

    (In before, "but Coil took...!")
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2021-06-08 at 04:53 PM.

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