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  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Your vocabulary and expressions are quite typical of my experience with group play in FFXIV.
    People using your expressions and vocabulary in WoW would have gotten an infraction in-game very quickly.
    I think you are confusing the two games.
    Except you're not even remotely right. Nobody is going to get on your case for how you play the game. Nobody is going to report you unless you're being a jerk in chat. Since you are claiming people report others for "playing their character the very best they can" shows that you probably got suspended for harassing people about their performance and used DPS meters to shame people. Like people do constantly in WoW.

    As Katchii said, thank you for no longer playing FFXIV

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    And how do you know that's what they were doing and not genuinely bad? Did they tell you that or is that how you convinced yourself that the ban you recieved was actually the victim's fault?
    Why do you think that I got a ban? I was warned before I tried FFXIV that people would try to bait you so they could report you in order to get you a ban. I was very careful tip-toing around the baiters. Some of the baiters were quite creative, if only they had used the same creativity to become better at the game...

    As a social experience FFXIV was most interesting. It reminded me a lot of an old roleplaying game called Paranoia:
    Everyone is supposed to pretend to be happy and like everybody else and you have to pretend not tohave any knowledge of underlying systems/issues.

    If you reveal that you have any knowledge - for example in the case of FFXIV that someone is AFK or only auto-attacking then you reveal that you have knowledge about underlying systems = you are an enemy of the state and the happy, or in case of FFXIV the entitled player(s) will snitch on you as you aren't supposed to have knowledge about others performance = knowledge of the system.

    The exact same experience is to be had in totalitarian states, where everyone knows how the system really is, but if you say it out loud then you will be persecuted.

    I am just giving my opinion on the game, not because I want the game to change, but because if someone who hasn't played the game should read this thread then I want him to have the viewpoint from a player that thinks that it is rude not to do your best when you interact with other people.

  3. #963
    Loading every zone.

  4. #964
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    So you're trying to claim that people who are bad, are actively harassing you because they're not performing to your high standards?
    In WoW a person who makes the in-game experience toxic for the majority in the group by not doing his best can be called out and kicked by the group. That is fully supported by Blizzard.
    Blizzard has the stance that you aren't "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.
    In FFXIV you a "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.

  5. #965
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    In WoW a person who makes the in-game experience toxic for the majority in the group by not doing his best can be called out and kicked by the group. That is fully supported by Blizzard.
    Blizzard has the stance that you aren't "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.
    In FFXIV you a "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.
    Got it. Thank you for clarifying that you're just being an elitist prick about this.

  6. #966
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    In WoW a person who makes the in-game experience toxic for the majority in the group by not doing his best can be called out and kicked by the group. That is fully supported by Blizzard.
    Blizzard has the stance that you aren't "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.
    In FFXIV you a "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.
    So many questions...
    What content did you do that was so hard you had to communicate to others how to play the game to save time?
    This is all very sus
    Last edited by Roanda; 2021-06-10 at 06:47 PM.

  7. #967
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Why do you think that I got a ban? I was warned before I tried FFXIV that people would try to bait you so they could report you in order to get you a ban. I was very careful tip-toing around the baiters. Some of the baiters were quite creative, if only they had used the same creativity to become better at the game...

    As a social experience FFXIV was most interesting. It reminded me a lot of an old roleplaying game called Paranoia:
    Everyone is supposed to pretend to be happy and like everybody else and you have to pretend not tohave any knowledge of underlying systems/issues.

    If you reveal that you have any knowledge - for example in the case of FFXIV that someone is AFK or only auto-attacking then you reveal that you have knowledge about underlying systems = you are an enemy of the state and the happy, or in case of FFXIV the entitled player(s) will snitch on you as you aren't supposed to have knowledge about others performance = knowledge of the system.

    The exact same experience is to be had in totalitarian states, where everyone knows how the system really is, but if you say it out loud then you will be persecuted.

    I am just giving my opinion on the game, not because I want the game to change, but because if someone who hasn't played the game should read this thread then I want him to have the viewpoint from a player that thinks that it is rude not to do your best when you interact with other people.
    Point of order here.

    You are able to point out that people are afk, or that they are performing badly by pointing to things like, they're not moving, they're not casting, they're only auto-attacking. you just can't use exact numbers or any other kind of indicator that highlights that you're using ACT to prove it.

    Being AFK is a valid reason to be kicked from a group in FFXIV.

  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Why do you think that I got a ban? I was warned before I tried FFXIV that people would try to bait you so they could report you in order to get you a ban. I was very careful tip-toing around the baiters. Some of the baiters were quite creative, if only they had used the same creativity to become better at the game...

    As a social experience FFXIV was most interesting. It reminded me a lot of an old roleplaying game called Paranoia:
    Everyone is supposed to pretend to be happy and like everybody else and you have to pretend not tohave any knowledge of underlying systems/issues.

    If you reveal that you have any knowledge - for example in the case of FFXIV that someone is AFK or only auto-attacking then you reveal that you have knowledge about underlying systems = you are an enemy of the state and the happy, or in case of FFXIV the entitled player(s) will snitch on you as you aren't supposed to have knowledge about others performance = knowledge of the system.

    The exact same experience is to be had in totalitarian states, where everyone knows how the system really is, but if you say it out loud then you will be persecuted.

    I am just giving my opinion on the game, not because I want the game to change, but because if someone who hasn't played the game should read this thread then I want him to have the viewpoint from a player that thinks that it is rude not to do your best when you interact with other people.
    Literally nobody does that. Whoever told you that people will bait you is a liar or you are lying about being told that. I've never seen it happen even once. I see the complete opposite. Everyone I encounter is friendly and helpful.

    Nobody has to pretend they're happy and like everyone else. They're just not allowed to be toxic pricks like in WoW. You can get away with being toxic and chastising players for the smallest things in WoW. That doesn't fly in FFXIV. Your examples of people "having knowledge about other's performance" is 100% false. Stop spreading lies, dude. Nobody "snitches" on people who knowing who is or isn't afk. The only people who get suspended are people who are being dicks in the in game chat.

    Grow up and stop comparing a game to a totalitarian state especially when you're 100% wrong. Everything you've said so far proves you've never played the game and just listened to anecdotal comments from your echo chamber friends list.

  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    So many questions...
    What content did you do that was so hard you had to communicate to others how to play the game to save time?
    That's not what he's arguing. He's saying because people aren't playing optimally, in whatever content he was doing, that they're harassing him because he has no recourse. He can't kick them for poor performance, he can't kick them for wasting time, etc...

    But with that said, I won't pretend that the performance of the group doesn't have a pretty significant impact on how long it takes to complete it. @Wrecktangle has been on multiple times showcasing just how different completion times of dungeons can be based on group performance. A fully optimal group doing everything "right" takes ~10-12 minutes to complete a dungeon, whereas an unoptimal group doing a lot of things wrong will take 20+ minutes to finish. That's a significant difference. Is it life changing and enough to get THIS bent out of shape over? Not in my opinion no, for a few reasons. 1) it's minutes of your life spent in a game you're supposedly playing to enjoy. Shouldn't be THAT big of a deal, but most importantly 2) If you're using the RANDOM duty finder you will be placed in a group of random players with random levels of skill, ability, etc... it's a completely unreasonable expectation to think you'll be getting optimal performance from that kind of group consistently.

  10. #970
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    If you're using the RANDOM duty finder you will be placed in a group of random players with random levels of skill, ability, etc... it's a completely unreasonable expectation to think you'll be getting optimal performance from that kind of group consistently.
    AFAIR in Japan DF is only used for competent groups and less skilled players are expected to get their groups from PF, where they can specify that they are not expecting high performance. I think it's a much healthier system.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    That's not what he's arguing. He's saying because people aren't playing optimally, in whatever content he was doing, that they're harassing him because he has no recourse. He can't kick them for poor performance, he can't kick them for wasting time, etc...

    But with that said, I won't pretend that the performance of the group doesn't have a pretty significant impact on how long it takes to complete it. @Wrecktangle has been on multiple times showcasing just how different completion times of dungeons can be based on group performance. A fully optimal group doing everything "right" takes ~10-12 minutes to complete a dungeon, whereas an unoptimal group doing a lot of things wrong will take 20+ minutes to finish. That's a significant difference. Is it life changing and enough to get THIS bent out of shape over? Not in my opinion no, for a few reasons. 1) it's minutes of your life spent in a game you're supposedly playing to enjoy. Shouldn't be THAT big of a deal, but most importantly 2) If you're using the RANDOM duty finder you will be placed in a group of random players with random levels of skill, ability, etc... it's a completely unreasonable expectation to think you'll be getting optimal performance from that kind of group consistently.
    Another important thing that I'd like to note is that the fastest run isn't necessarily the most fun run.
    Talking to people, socializing, helping new players understand the encounters are often the runs where I feel that I had a genuinely good time.
    And then we had E12 that I did today where everyone died except two paladins and a dancer and we watched them take the boss down from 40% to 0%. It took a heck of a long time but it was captivating to watch.

  12. #972
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    AFAIR in Japan DF is only used for competent groups and less skilled players are expected to get their groups from PF, where they can specify that they are not expecting high performance. I think it's a much healthier system.
    I don't disagree, but that's not how it works in pretty much any other geography. the person in question here is not playing in Japan, AFAIK.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Another important thing that I'd like to note is that the fastest run isn't necessarily the most fun run.
    Talking to people, socializing, helping new players understand the encounters are often the runs where I feel that I had a genuinely good time.
    And then we had E12 that I did today where everyone died except two paladins and a dancer and we watched them take the boss down from 40% to 0%. It took a heck of a long time but it was captivating to watch.
    Agreed here. It really all depends on what your goal is, and expecting everyone to have the same goal is another unreasonable expectation.

  13. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    But with that said, I won't pretend that the performance of the group doesn't have a pretty significant impact on how long it takes to complete it. @Wrecktangle has been on multiple times showcasing just how different completion times of dungeons can be based on group performance. A fully optimal group doing everything "right" takes ~10-12 minutes to complete a dungeon, whereas an unoptimal group doing a lot of things wrong will take 20+ minutes to finish. That's a significant difference. Is it life changing and enough to get THIS bent out of shape over? Not in my opinion no, for a few reasons. 1) it's minutes of your life spent in a game you're supposedly playing to enjoy. Shouldn't be THAT big of a deal, but most importantly 2) If you're using the RANDOM duty finder you will be placed in a group of random players with random levels of skill, ability, etc... it's a completely unreasonable expectation to think you'll be getting optimal performance from that kind of group consistently.
    Yep, one of the biggest examples of this would be in Delibrum Reginae or Dalriada. A good group using a good mix of lost actions and essences you're likely to see runs around 20-30 minutes. Get a group of people running bad actions and essences or worse just plainly aren't using them and you'll see runs extending to 50+ minutes.

    But if people are looking for fast runs it's always; ALWAYS, better to PF (Party Finder) it to play with like minded people. Relying purely on DF (Duty Finder) to make your party for you is always a mixed bag.
    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

  14. #974
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    But if people are looking for fast runs it's always; ALWAYS, better to PF (Party Finder) it to play with like minded people. Relying purely on DF (Duty Finder) to make your party for you is always a mixed bag.
    Like in any game that has matchmade content really. It should neither be surprising or infuriating.

  15. #975
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    You're talking to someone who is a WoW diehard. They're used to toxic elitists crucifying anyone who doesn't play 100% optimally. And that's why I love FFXIV. That kind of shit is not only frowned upon but can net you a suspension. As a result, the game pretty much only has helpful players who are willing to give people pointers and be patient with them about getting better. When I first started tanking in FFXIV, pretty much every group I got into would tell me wipes were ok when I told them at the start I was new. They also gave me pointers about what CDs to use when, how best to maintain aggro, and would say things like "No worries, you're learning " if I died and still said it even if it resulted in a wipe. It's been an odd culture shock going from the toxicity of WoW to the wonderful community of FFXIV.
    Uh.... Did you even read my post? It was directed at you...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    "Hey bro, wtf are you doing? this is the 10th time you've f this up tonight. last chance before we gotta remove u bro, sorry" is a childish and toxic thing to say. You didn't say you tried explaining things to them. As a matter of fact, your language implies you expect them to just know what they're doing. In all my years of playing MMOs, I've never seen a person fuck up the same way 10 times if they were given an explanation. I've only seen it happen when the raid leader expected everyone to just know exactly what they were doing and scolded people for asking questions.

    You never once said that the person messing up was told what to do. You led with the toxic comment. And if you're saying something like "hey bro wtf are you doing" then you absolutely have belittled people and were lying when you said you haven't.
    To be fair, the quote you're repeating doesn't sound at all toxic to me...

    But anyway moving on - It depends on the context and the fact that you're not taking that into consideration shows you're not as well versed in this game or community as you think you are. How long have you been playing and what level is your main/level?

    I.e. If we're in a clear party for the new EX, and someone messes up the same mechanic 5x from an earlier phase, the party isn't toxic for calling that player out or removing them. The player who failed is because they didn't respect 7 other players time or effort. This happens EVERY patch.

    If it's a learning party? Try and explain and help, but in a clear or farm it's not the parties responsibility to make sure you know everything, ESPECIALLY if you didn't speak up when you made a mistake the 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd... time.

    If it's matched content if ANYONE dies to ANYTHING 5x in the same pull I will most certainly have questions because the content is so trivial that it means they're doing something egregiously wrong (i.e. something that they shouldn't be doing while doing grouped content IMO).

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Except WoW is actually toxic as fuck. You are pretty much encouraged to harass and belittle people in WoW. Meanwhile, if you're a toxic elitist in FFXIV you get punished. As you should be.
    Interesting. Despite playing WoW for over 10+ years I've never felt encouraged or a desire to harass or belittle someone there? If it's any consolation I've never felt it in FF14 either, but I've come close on a small handful of occasions (Shield Lob Paladin, the person intentionally trolling 24 man raids, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Except you're not even remotely right. Nobody is going to get on your case for how you play the game. Nobody is going to report you unless you're being a jerk in chat. Since you are claiming people report others for "playing their character the very best they can" shows that you probably got suspended for harassing people about their performance and used DPS meters to shame people. Like people do constantly in WoW.

    As Katchii said, thank you for no longer playing FFXIV
    Fun fact, after I had a REALLY annoying experience in a 24 man (a player and his FC were intentionally trolling) I decided to give my own social experiment a shot. I joined a 24 man, and I basically just auto attacked and I deliberately put on gear significantly below the ilvl/mismatched stats.

    2 People called me out for it, I just apologized and said sorry with a . They didn't call me out rudely, they weren't wrong in that I was only averaging 271 DPS (last place) in a level 70 24 man.

    Those players got harassed and accused of running DPS meters, and 1 of them even got kicked and people all said they reported him and consoled me.

    I was a straight fucking villain and yet people praised me and tried to help me by offering tips (tips that were actually wrong for my job). I never did it again because I felt awful for doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Point of order here.

    You are able to point out that people are afk, or that they are performing badly by pointing to things like, they're not moving, they're not casting, they're only auto-attacking. you just can't use exact numbers or any other kind of indicator that highlights that you're using ACT to prove it.

    Being AFK is a valid reason to be kicked from a group in FFXIV.
    I always dislike this rebuttal. It's one thing to stop and watch that (at the cost of my own performance), but it's also hard to make sure other people are noticing it simultaneously and that's a lot of wasted energy/effort to track, something an addon does trivially and without emotional interference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Another important thing that I'd like to note is that the fastest run isn't necessarily the most fun run.
    Talking to people, socializing, helping new players understand the encounters are often the runs where I feel that I had a genuinely good time.
    And then we had E12 that I did today where everyone died except two paladins and a dancer and we watched them take the boss down from 40% to 0%. It took a heck of a long time but it was captivating to watch.
    To be fair I have solo'd EVERY single dungeon boss practically in the end game at some point in an expansion. I'd say that 50% of the time people will get really annoyed if you don't just wipe (and outright harass me over it, but it doesn't bother me) so while you and the other person really enjoyed watching it know, that there are others who don't and it's not fun for them to sit idle for 4 minutes while you guys selfishly fight a boss fight that normally takes half that time to kill from full HP.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2021-06-10 at 08:13 PM.

  16. #976
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I always dislike this rebuttal. It's one thing to stop and watch that (at the cost of my own performance), but it's also hard to make sure other people are noticing it simultaneously and that's a lot of wasted energy/effort to track, something an addon does trivially and without emotional interference
    No disagreement here, just stating that it's possible.

    If the only way to see that someone is not performing optimally is through the use of ACT, then it's going to be somewhat difficult to explain that because of it being against the TOS and the potential for someone to report you over it.

    Maybe I'm just used to it because I didn't use ACT for a LONG time, and still only turn it on occasionally, but it's not that difficult to watch for those things, at least not in random dungeons. In higher end things where there are lots of things to watch out for and move around for, it would absolutely be very difficult if not impossible to do so without impacting your own performance, but those aren't the kinds of things the person we're responding to was commenting about.

  17. #977
    Fun fact, after I had a REALLY annoying experience in a 24 man (a player and his FC were intentionally trolling) I decided to give my own social experiment a shot. I joined a 24 man, and I basically just auto attacked and I deliberately put on gear significantly below the ilvl/mismatched stats.

    2 People called me out for it, I just apologized and said sorry with a . They didn't call me out rudely, they weren't wrong in that I was only averaging 271 DPS (last place) in a level 70 24 man.

    Those players got harassed and accused of running DPS meters, and 1 of them even got kicked and people all said they reported him and consoled me.

    I was a straight fucking villain and yet people praised me and tried to help me by offering tips (tips that were actually wrong for my job). I never did it again because I felt awful for doing it.
    The annoying thing about this is that it's super easy in a 24man to see who is AFK-autoattacking in your group (just your group though)

    First: Ingame Threat Meter
    Second: Watch his character

    Done.

    That being said, I remember calling one guy out too and he got kicked shortly afterwards
    It was in that one alliance raid with "Cid the Thunderlord" or whatever the boss was called, you know, the cool one with the cool voicelines. (can't remember the alliance raid names except for "Void Ark")

    He got into another run later on (I farmed that thing before shadowbringer) and did the same thing.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-06-10 at 08:32 PM.

  18. #978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles Worth View Post
    Loading every zone.
    Which takes literary like 5 secs max.

  19. #979
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Uh.... Did you even read my post? It was directed at you...



    To be fair, the quote you're repeating doesn't sound at all toxic to me...

    But anyway moving on - It depends on the context and the fact that you're not taking that into consideration shows you're not as well versed in this game or community as you think you are. How long have you been playing and what level is your main/level?

    I.e. If we're in a clear party for the new EX, and someone messes up the same mechanic 5x from an earlier phase, the party isn't toxic for calling that player out or removing them. The player who failed is because they didn't respect 7 other players time or effort. This happens EVERY patch.

    If it's a learning party? Try and explain and help, but in a clear or farm it's not the parties responsibility to make sure you know everything, ESPECIALLY if you didn't speak up when you made a mistake the 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd... time.

    If it's matched content if ANYONE dies to ANYTHING 5x in the same pull I will most certainly have questions because the content is so trivial that it means they're doing something egregiously wrong (i.e. something that they shouldn't be doing while doing grouped content IMO).



    Interesting. Despite playing WoW for over 10+ years I've never felt encouraged or a desire to harass or belittle someone there? If it's any consolation I've never felt it in FF14 either, but I've come close on a small handful of occasions (Shield Lob Paladin, the person intentionally trolling 24 man raids, etc.).



    Fun fact, after I had a REALLY annoying experience in a 24 man (a player and his FC were intentionally trolling) I decided to give my own social experiment a shot. I joined a 24 man, and I basically just auto attacked and I deliberately put on gear significantly below the ilvl/mismatched stats.

    2 People called me out for it, I just apologized and said sorry with a . They didn't call me out rudely, they weren't wrong in that I was only averaging 271 DPS (last place) in a level 70 24 man.

    Those players got harassed and accused of running DPS meters, and 1 of them even got kicked and people all said they reported him and consoled me.

    I was a straight fucking villain and yet people praised me and tried to help me by offering tips (tips that were actually wrong for my job). I never did it again because I felt awful for doing it.



    I always dislike this rebuttal. It's one thing to stop and watch that (at the cost of my own performance), but it's also hard to make sure other people are noticing it simultaneously and that's a lot of wasted energy/effort to track, something an addon does trivially and without emotional interference.



    To be fair I have solo'd EVERY single dungeon boss practically in the end game at some point in an expansion. I'd say that 50% of the time people will get really annoyed if you don't just wipe (and outright harass me over it, but it doesn't bother me) so while you and the other person really enjoyed watching it know, that there are others who don't and it's not fun for them to sit idle for 4 minutes while you guys selfishly fight a boss fight that normally takes half that time to kill from full HP.
    First off, did the person making a mistake that many times get directions or were they just expected to know what they were doing? If instead of saying to the person after they mess up 2 times "Hey do you know the mechanics?" you just wait until they mess up 5 times then kick them? That's toxic as fuck. Whether it's a learning group or not. It's about not being a jerk to people. It takes two seconds to ask someone if they know the fight. If they say yes and screw up in the same way AGAIN? Then you kick them because they are absolutely a liar and disrespectful of everyone's time.

    As for the second point about the community, I don't believe you actually play WoW if you're saying that in earnest. The official forums are filled with elitists. These forums are full of them. In game chats are full of them. I have NEVER come across a raider who didn't belittle people every chance they got. For fuck's sake, people will shame you for your dps IN LEVELING DUNGEONS IN WOW. There is no community I have personally come across that is more toxic than WoW.

    As for your 24 man story, I really REALLY don't believe you. I've seen situations like that where someone gets called out for being afk and then when they do it again, nobody says anything. They just boot the person. If someone called you out for being afk in chat, nobody is going to mention damage meters because damage meters weren't posted. And guess what? The people accusing the people of damage meters should have been reported because they were harassing a player that didn't even post meters.

  20. #980
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    To be fair I have solo'd EVERY single dungeon boss practically in the end game at some point in an expansion. I'd say that 50% of the time people will get really annoyed if you don't just wipe (and outright harass me over it, but it doesn't bother me) so while you and the other person really enjoyed watching it know, that there are others who don't and it's not fun for them to sit idle for 4 minutes while you guys selfishly fight a boss fight that normally takes half that time to kill from full HP.
    There's a pretty big difference between a dungeon boss and E12 though.

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