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  1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    Which takes literary like 5 secs max.
    So? Breaks immersion.

  2. #982
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The game doesn't put anyone over anyone else. This is just your ridiculous persecution complex talking.
    No, it really does. Yoshi-P finally gave a straight answer after the thousandth time they were asked about more challenging 4-man content and the response amounted to "we feel like 4-player content puts too much pressure on the individual to succeed" (specifically, healers), and "it's easier to get into larger-groups content."

    That last one sounds *insane* - it's a lot easier to find 3 buddies to consistently log in together and do stuff than 7 or 23 or whatever - until you realize that it's a tacit endorsement of "I can't be bothered to play the game well, carry me." He's not quite literally stating that it's intentional that fights be designed with enough leeway (especially with gear) that you can carry people that are doing the absolute bare minimum or less.

    To me, this is fucking stupid. Normal modes and, arguably, extreme modes already exist for people that don't really want to "git gud." Normals don't have any kind of challenges associated with them, and the DPS checks on extremes are very, very generous. Neither type of mode contains multiple complex mechanics - extremes usually one "big" mechanic per phase (such as the swords on Emerald phase 2) and everything else is very simple. Also, unlike savages, extremes briefly show you AOE markers before the attacks go off. Not for long enough to react to them and move out, but long enough for the players to very clearly see AOEs and effects before they land, whereas in savages and ultimates it's *purely* paying attention to the spell animations (which often aren't as precise as the AOE markers.)

    So there's no reason that they need to be making deliberately challenging content easier for people, nor is it a justification to avoid putting in challenging 4-man content in. But they've cornered the instant gratification playerbase with their game, and they have to stick to it, because if they alienate the "but I want everything without putting in work!" crowd they'll lose a lot of their profits.

    I don't know how this stacks up to retail WoW. But you can see shades of it in TBCC's "boost meta," where players are expecting/demanding the ability to spend real money to buy gold and then pay other players gold in order to quickly level up characters.

    On the topic of learning aids, I think Square-Enix is one of the worst companies I've ever seen for giving a shit about trying to help players improve.

    We already have publicly visible damage boards for PvP, why can't we have them for PvE? At least then players have something to compare different runs and clears to - did I do more damage? Cool, I must be getting better!

    There should also be the option to have the game UI flash/highlight which button you should be pressing next in non-competitive content (normals/anything in Duty Finder.) It wouldn't necessarily teach you your rotation but would help ensure that players are pressing *most* of their buttons, pressing them in the right order, and understand how to weave a single oGCD in between GCD attacks.

    You can't make the horse drink the water, but Square-Enix isn't even bothering to bring them to the water in the first place, the lazy fucks.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2021-06-11 at 12:20 AM.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  3. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    To me, this is fucking stupid.
    To me, doing anything else would be fucking stupid. The purpose of the game is to make money by attracting average customers, not reward the best players with a game designed for them.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    And Yiskah held her, as light and life faded, until there was nothing left.

  4. #984
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    To me, doing anything else would be fucking stupid. The purpose of the game is to make money by attracting average customers, not reward the best players with a game designed for them.
    This. 100% this. FFXIV is fantastic because ANYONE can get into it. It actively doesn't punish you for not no-lifing the game like WoW does. There are still avenues to play difficult high-end activity. But just because they're not 4 player instances doesn't mean they're lazy. The only reason Blizzard even bothers with the amount of bosses raids anymore is because of LFR. If more people weren't seeing the content, there would be shit raids. This is something Blizzard has actually said in the past. There's no point in catering to the elite few. As a matter of fact, it's typically a waste of resources.

  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    No, it really does. Yoshi-P finally gave a straight answer after the thousandth time they were asked about more challenging 4-man content and the response amounted to "we feel like 4-player content puts too much pressure on the individual to succeed" (specifically, healers), and "it's easier to get into larger-groups content."

    That last one sounds *insane* - it's a lot easier to find 3 buddies to consistently log in together and do stuff than 7 or 23 or whatever - until you realize that it's a tacit endorsement of "I can't be bothered to play the game well, carry me." He's not quite literally stating that it's intentional that fights be designed with enough leeway (especially with gear) that you can carry people that are doing the absolute bare minimum or less.

    To me, this is fucking stupid. Normal modes and, arguably, extreme modes already exist for people that don't really want to "git gud." Normals don't have any kind of challenges associated with them, and the DPS checks on extremes are very, very generous. Neither type of mode contains multiple complex mechanics - extremes usually one "big" mechanic per phase (such as the swords on Emerald phase 2) and everything else is very simple. Also, unlike savages, extremes briefly show you AOE markers before the attacks go off. Not for long enough to react to them and move out, but long enough for the players to very clearly see AOEs and effects before they land, whereas in savages and ultimates it's *purely* paying attention to the spell animations (which often aren't as precise as the AOE markers.)

    So there's no reason that they need to be making deliberately challenging content easier for people, nor is it a justification to avoid putting in challenging 4-man content in. But they've cornered the instant gratification playerbase with their game, and they have to stick to it, because if they alienate the "but I want everything without putting in work!" crowd they'll lose a lot of their profits.

    I don't know how this stacks up to retail WoW. But you can see shades of it in TBCC's "boost meta," where players are expecting/demanding the ability to spend real money to buy gold and then pay other players gold in order to quickly level up characters.

    On the topic of learning aids, I think Square-Enix is one of the worst companies I've ever seen for giving a shit about trying to help players improve.

    We already have publicly visible damage boards for PvP, why can't we have them for PvE? At least then players have something to compare different runs and clears to - did I do more damage? Cool, I must be getting better!

    There should also be the option to have the game UI flash/highlight which button you should be pressing next in non-competitive content (normals/anything in Duty Finder.) It wouldn't necessarily teach you your rotation but would help ensure that players are pressing *most* of their buttons, pressing them in the right order, and understand how to weave a single oGCD in between GCD attacks.

    You can't make the horse drink the water, but Square-Enix isn't even bothering to bring them to the water in the first place, the lazy fucks.
    I'll never understand why people pick MMO's to come and try to flex some kind of elite gamer cred. It's quite literally the worst gaming genre for this "waving my dick around" nonsense.

    Go play chess, or a competitive FPS, or a fighting game, or an RTS, or anything else. Whining about how bad a company is because their MMO isn't giving you tough enough bear asses to whack in small group content is patently absurd.

  6. #986
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I'll never understand why people pick MMO's to come and try to flex some kind of elite gamer cred. It's quite literally the worst gaming genre for this "waving my dick around" nonsense.

    Go play chess, or a competitive FPS, or a fighting game, or an RTS, or anything else. Whining about how bad a company is because their MMO isn't giving you tough enough bear asses to whack in small group content is patently absurd.
    Maybe they're not skilled enough to cut it in those types of games but they really like to believe that they are?

  7. #987
    Its ugly graphic style.

  8. #988
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Maybe they're not skilled enough to cut it in those types of games but they really like to believe that they are?
    I don't know, and I wouldn't judge.

    To be honest, I enjoy harder content. I prefer it, really. I was getting server first kills on raid bosses back in Vex Thal and Plane of Time, as stupid as the content was back then. Was I some elite badass for it? Hell no. It was 95% just time investment.

    But I'm not going to throw a tantrum about how the company is bad for not catering to my dick swinging. Or that the company is angering me by attracting players that are bad, scrubby, being carried, "instant gratification types", whatever. It's ridiculous, MMO gameplay is almost entirely just putting time in to things and a minimum of effort.

    Is there harder content? Of course there is. But if the people throwing the tantrums are so worried about it, then go do that content. Go apply to Limit or whatever. Actually do the content in the genre that's designed for people to swing their dicks around. Don't sit in the fucking leveling roulette in FFXIV bemoaning that the game just isn't letting your brilliance shine through or some shit.

  9. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    So many questions...
    What content did you do that was so hard you had to communicate to others how to play the game to save time?
    This is all very sus
    Who said anything about hard? Normal and heroic dungeons aren't hard at all in WoW, but you still will meet people that waste the time of the 4 others in the group.
    In WoW the time and effort of the majority is respected, because Blizzard provides you with the tool of getting rid of toxic people.
    In FFXIV the time and effot of the majority isn't respected, because the developer protects the toxic people.

    If it was a single player game then how anyone plays it is completely irrelevant, but this is a multi-player game and the "philosophical question" here is:
    Do I want to play a game doesn't stop you from removing people that don't respect the time of their fellow gamer or do I want to play a game that actively protects people that waste other people's time.

    One can say that WoW's approach leads to a pressure to become better, while FFXIV leads to a pressure to become as bad as the lowest common denominator.
    Both approaches have their consequences in-game, but I for one know what I prefer.
    And competitive people that consider starting playing FFXIV should know what game entails.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    To me, doing anything else would be fucking stupid. The purpose of the game is to make money by attracting average customers, not reward the best players with a game designed for them.
    You are making the assumption that "average" people don't find it fun to become better at a game.
    You are also making the assumption that "average" people can't accept or find it humiliating that other people are better at a game than them.
    I think you are mistaking entitled gamers for average gamers.

    A good game that entails co-operative competitive elements will have challenging content for people from all skill-levels, time available and play-style.
    And self-aware people, no matter if they are "average" or "good" or whatever label you want to put on them will find people of similar skill and play-style and do the content with them and enjoy the process.
    Entitled people, no matter if they are "average" or "good", yes you can find entitled people amongst the "good" players, are unable to do so.

    Don't confuse average with entitled.
    Last edited by T-34; 2021-06-11 at 07:26 AM.

  10. #990
    Bloodsail Admiral Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Its ugly graphic style.
    De gustibus non est disputandum but I still find it funny to hear this on Wow forums which is ugly as f.... (sorry!)

  11. #991
    I have a few gripes with the game. I have played multiple classes to atleast 60 and 2 to 80 in the current expac. I don't really like how daunting and slow the leveling process is if you want to try something new, having to grind fates for hours upon hours is really daunting.

    I don't really like the reliance on having to do the entire story before being able to progress further, especially when it comes to starting new expac releases. I understand that most people will say that it's a story driven game and that's to be expected. I get that part of it, I just don't really enjoy the story all that much, I did up to a point but then it started to feel like a job to catch up if I had to take time away from the game.

    I used to not like the GCD and slower pace as much but then I kind of got used to it. The main thing I dislike is the inability for me to see if I'm doing well, especially as a DPS, I get that there are 3rd party software that can tell me, but I'd really like an in-game option to see that for myself, even if they make it to where you can't report it to others, so it couldn't be used as tool for bullying, which I'm sure in some situations it would be, but I'd like to see for myself and see how I can improve.

    Honestly, I like the game overall I'm just not sure how I'm going to get back into it should I want to with the next expac. The new Reaper class looks pretty cool and I'd like to try it out, but that goes back to my 2nd point, the Story. Also doesn't help that i don't really have the same friends in the game that I used to play a bunch with, and I find making friends, especially in XIV daunting for some reason.

  12. #992
    Pandaren Monk Cren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    This. 100% this. FFXIV is fantastic because ANYONE can get into it. It actively doesn't punish you for not no-lifing the game like WoW does. There are still avenues to play difficult high-end activity. But just because they're not 4 player instances doesn't mean they're lazy. The only reason Blizzard even bothers with the amount of bosses raids anymore is because of LFR. If more people weren't seeing the content, there would be shit raids. This is something Blizzard has actually said in the past. There's no point in catering to the elite few. As a matter of fact, it's typically a waste of resources.
    Jesus i don't think i've ever seen anyone with such a big "hate-boner" for WoW before. It's almost impressive how you get everything to be about WoW. In a thread about FF14 even.....

  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by Boran View Post
    I have a few gripes with the game. I have played multiple classes to atleast 60 and 2 to 80 in the current expac. I don't really like how daunting and slow the leveling process is if you want to try something new, having to grind fates for hours upon hours is really daunting.
    There are other methods than grinding fates but yeah I agree it's very slow even with the available xp boosts and it's very repetitive.
    I wish that they would expand on the trust system and make it available for all dungeons in the game (a lot of work I know) and maybe up the output of the trusts because they don't do nearly as much damage as an average player so the dungeons take a very long time to complete.
    Also the xp boost for all jobs below your maximum one could easily be doubled and it would still be slow

  14. #994
    I think i would like it, if
    1. they would move away from making every last male cahracter look like a women... seriously what is up with those hips?
    2. Tone down these ridicioulus spell effects. What is up with that? Does anyone actually enjoy that?
    3. Make endgame a bit more challenging without just adding ore dance variables.
    4. Make Healers viable as healers.... not force them to do more damage than healing
    5. And allow addons like damage meters.

    Edit: Give me an option to make every last Lalafell invisible.... whoever designed these things has serious issues...

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    How can anyone improve at the elite end, without being called out for their failures and learning from them?

    Part of being an adult is having thick skin and being able to take any criticism within bounds
    Big difference between leading someone to improve and berating them.

    And no, that’s not part of being an adult. Being an adult is about learning to compose yourself in a mature manner.

  16. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    There are other methods than grinding fates but yeah I agree it's very slow even with the available xp boosts and it's very repetitive.
    I wish that they would expand on the trust system and make it available for all dungeons in the game (a lot of work I know) and maybe up the output of the trusts because they don't do nearly as much damage as an average player so the dungeons take a very long time to complete.
    Also the xp boost for all jobs below your maximum one could easily be doubled and it would still be slow
    Yeah, I knew someone was going to mention this, I thought about that after I wrote it. I know there are other methods, but like you said, it's still very slow, which is my main gripe, especially since leveling isn't the main part of why you play the game really heh

  17. #997
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I'll never understand why people pick MMO's to come and try to flex some kind of elite gamer cred. It's quite literally the worst gaming genre for this "waving my dick around" nonsense.

    Go play chess, or a competitive FPS, or a fighting game, or an RTS, or anything else. Whining about how bad a company is because their MMO isn't giving you tough enough bear asses to whack in small group content is patently absurd.
    I agree with this.

    Reminded me of a guy I humbled in FFXI who loved to toot his own horn and condescend others. I told him I’m sure the bards will be singing tales of his feats for ages to come.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boran View Post
    Yeah, I knew someone was going to mention this, I thought about that after I wrote it. I know there are other methods, but like you said, it's still very slow, which is my main gripe, especially since leveling isn't the main part of why you play the game really heh
    I’m sure they’ll fix this sometime. WoW did and I’m sure it’ll be semi similar. Or not and make it more and more miserable as each expansion comes out and bank on boosts.

  18. #998
    I have never liked the FF games to begin with. The style/art of it all, never been for me. I've seen gameplay trailers of the MMO and heard what content creators say about it, but I dont care. Its not for me and i'll never bother to try it either. Dont care what other people think of it, its my opinion and I wont ever touch it.

    That said - if others like it, cool. Doesnt make me want to play it either way. Feel sorry for streamers being spammed everyday about playing it when many of the just find the game not appealing for X reasons.

    Btw - I dont think Finaly Fantasy is the MMO people are searching for. its gaining traction right now cause wow is in a really bad state and people are waiting for new MMOs. Will the MMORPG fans ever find a game that captures them like wow did? I doubt it. Thats probably for next generation of gamers.

  19. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Players that care about their performance are being persecuted in the game by the developers and they encourage the entitled players to snitch on them.
    It can quite obvious be seen by the fact that players that are competitive and care about their performance have to go "underground" in order to play with like-minded people.

    - - - Updated - - -



    WoW has, in regards to PVE, an official ladders for M+, you also have a thriving out-of-game ladder-tool in the shape of raider.io that is going to be implemented in-game. In regards for raiding you also have an official ladder.
    You also have very well developed performance measuring tools from dps-meters to logs, not "underground freedom tools" like in FFXIV.

    All that means that you can compare yourself to your peers on an individual level to a group level. There can be no competition and competitiveness without a robust system for measuring performance.
    The developers of WoW supports the use of such tools, both in-game and out of game. The developers of FFXIV do nothing of such sort, they actually persecute and encourage those that wont' do their best to snitch and harass those that want to be the best they can be.
    What you call co-op competitive is why I am being pushed away from WoW. The days of working together to take down a powerful boss are gone, and the fan fare to go with it. Now, after a boss is defeated it’s just bullshit whining about their logs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Ff14 players aren’t as toxic as wows for the most part, but they are way more Defensive.

    Say you dislike any part of ff14, and the pitchforks come out

    Example: I don’t personally like the feminine art style, which is fine if someone else does, but because I think it looks dainty and feminine (even by ff or jrpg standards) I’d be crucified in the community
    I dunno, I have many of times said it’s way too weeb for me, including the story, and all I get is normally a “fair enough”.

  20. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    This goes back to the screenshots I posted last week. There are IME nearly 20-35% of players I get matched with who do less damage than simply mashing their 1 key over and over. That should not be OK. I've never once joined a WoW party where I had a player who literally did SO little damage that they did less damage than me spamming a single key over and over. The reason for that is because they would be excluded or called out.
    Hunters doing nothing but autoshot used to be a thing, in the day. Autoshot+pet DPS was enough that it wasn't immediately apparent that they were next to AFK, so they'd often get away with it for a while.

    The difference between a good hunter and a bad one was amazing, not least because hunters used mana and you had to properly manage it to do your best DPS.

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