What problems do you have with Final Fantasy 14?

[Daltin]

WoW fights are barely less of "dance" fights than XIV has.

XIV is totally scripted at points, with certain mechanics Always targeting a tank, Always targeting a healer, and Always targeting a DPS. You get some instances where this bucks the trend though, like Savage Titan as an example, with the Orange/Yellow/Blue markers. There was enough variance there that everyone had to know all mechanics, not just their specific role mechanic.

WoW is a dance. Sorry. If it wasn't, DBM/BW wouldn't be a thing. You have fights where everything happens on a strict timer, but of course you have fights where things can be slightly variable or goes into a spell queue (Jaina), and it can cause absolute chaos.

Both games are difficult for different reasons.

WoW has the number of players game, on top of more "busy/tedious" mechanics (Xymox seed running. Someone's gotta do it.) , but can experiment some because of the amount of players in the player space.

XIV has more instant-death/punishing mechanics with more "imaginative" mechanics (seeing your own death in Alexander and how to avoid it), but easier to handle without a boss mod due to how extremely scripted it is 95% of the time.

[Wrecktangle]

I don't think I'm going to that extreme. What would really be the standard anyway?

If we're using say expert roulette as the context, I would argue wall to wall pulls with people pushing AOE buttons and tanks using CDs should be the standard.

I've always advocated that if you're wanting min/max people, creme of the crop, etc... ask for it in your FC, not at randoms.

What if you simply want more than the bare minimum? Should you have to go to FC/LS/statics to get that?

Well like I said the run was a total clusterfuck. And I don't normally have this issue. This was specific to this run. He was constatly ahead of all three of us not even just me. But I think we have devoted him more than enough time. He was just one cunt not thinking of anyone else despite his supposed experience.

Fair enough.

See? I told you guys to never, ever offer up any information about your (potential) failings, problems, shortcomings, whatever. A little quote about how a tank was LoSing you turned into multiple people over multiple pages trying to pick you apart over it.

Just saying it DOES take 2 to LoS and it's not a problem I've ever experienced as a PLD main who's tanked over a thousand dungeons so I was actually curious of the finer details.

Wreck has always been a, "Playing bad in my groups is the TRUE toxic behavior." sort of guy. (I mean, he keeps a folder of DPS meter screenshots!)

This is actually straight up slander! I've never once harassed or called out someone for being bad. For being lazy, deceitful or not trying? Absolutely, but never because they're bad. I don't actually have the folder anymore , had to dig em up from past posts.

It happens in matchmade activity CONSTANTLY and it drives me insane.

Sorry to hear that, but that does provide some clarity as to why my experience is significantly different than yours.

I have seen plenty of nonsense on both sides regarding how they perceive this issue.

Like:

WoW side: FFXIV players are overly sensitive snowflakes who can't take criticism
Also them: LoLL why would anyone play this pedo weeb trash. I sure as hell won't play a single minute

FFXIV side: We are way more welcoming that the WoW community filled with shortsighted blind toxic sheep (oximoron much)
Also them: If you don't like the game, go back to WoW.

WoW side: FFXIV is just as toxic because *anecdotal evidence*

FFXIV side: Everyone who says we are as toxic as WoW she like totally die in a fire for lying. And their dog as well.

This actually made me laugh and is the gist of most of my conversations here. I'm not here to champion WoW and put people down, I'm just here to have discussions about a game that I love and correct misconceptions (hypocrisy and misinformation mostly), or deep dive into discussion points to better understand people.

You'll never hear me say FF14 is better or worse than WoW in a blanket because I genuinely don't believe that. There are aspects of both games that I love and hate and wished both games did better.

But you can turn that around. I watched streams of the Sylvanas heroic fight and you have like five mechanics in total? Coil 9 had more instant death mechanics in the second phase of the fight. It looked unimaginatice and simple. It just depends on what you are used to.

Coil 9 is also an enormous outlier. Did you do progression on it by any chance? Nael was one of the hardest fights I've ever personally done in my raiding career. I would never compare a heroic endboss to Nael.

FF14 and WoW raids both create difficulty through different means. In FF14 figuring out the solution to the obscure mechanics and having all 8 people consistently do them correctly is the challenge.

WoW creates its difficulty through decision fatigue. Overwhelming you with decisions that usually soft wipe you over time (resource strangulation, whether it's DPS, HPS or space, etc.), but generally the insta wipes are relegated to just a few players responsibilities so it's helpful to assign it to the most capable.

I legitimately once had someone say that Ultimate raids in FFXIV are easier than LFR in WoW. The lies people will tell to avoid saying anything negative about WoW is wild.

I would love to have been there. That's just someone baiting you to rile you up because that's an objective inaccuracy.

Utterly irrelevant and I haven't seriously raided since Legion. Compared to the mythic fights I've done and the Extreme fights I've done in FFXIV(which isn't even the highest difficulty), FFXIV fights are more complex and more difficult.

I clear most extremes in less than an hour blind on the first day in pugs. You're argument is that the mythic fights you've done are more complex and difficult does not match my experience in any way. Care to share examples of which EX/savage fights you're referencing?

I've fallen asleep farming some EX trials (fucking Lakshmi). I've never fallen asleep in a mythic raid (I have fallen asleep once in timewalking dungeons, fuck that noise).

For the sake of the discussion I am assuming both assessments are made on day 1 blind progression. If I am mistake please correct me.

WoW actually is fucking garbage. Blizzard doesn't give a shit about quality anymore, something Shadowlands has proven. The gameplay of FFXIV is worlds more interactive than WoW ever has been. I don't need to say FFXIV is better to justify switching. Blizzard does that for me with their absolute garbage they feed the players now lol.

Define interactive? I actually find the gameplay to be one of the few areas that FF14 lacks when compared to WoW, especially with respect to interactivity.

WoW fights are barely less of "dance" fights than XIV has.

XIV is totally scripted at points, with certain mechanics Always targeting a tank, Always targeting a healer, and Always targeting a DPS. You get some instances where this bucks the trend though, like Savage Titan as an example, with the Orange/Yellow/Blue markers. There was enough variance there that everyone had to know all mechanics, not just their specific role mechanic.

WoW is a dance. Sorry. If it wasn't, DBM/BW wouldn't be a thing. You have fights where everything happens on a strict timer, but of course you have fights where things can be slightly variable or goes into a spell queue (Jaina), and it can cause absolute chaos.

Both games are difficult for different reasons.

WoW has the number of players game, on top of more "busy/tedious" mechanics (Xymox seed running. Someone's gotta do it.) , but can experiment some because of the amount of players in the player space.

XIV has more instant-death/punishing mechanics with more "imaginative" mechanics (seeing your own death in Alexander and how to avoid it), but easier to handle without a boss mod due to how extremely scripted it is 95% of the time.

Agreed for the most part, but the only rebuttal I have is that I really hate how every single pull on a savage/ex/ultimate has me at the exact same GCD at the exact same mechanic, at the exact same time, every single pull, with astronomically low variation.

In WoW I never had this issue or if I did, I certainly never felt it.

[Delano]

It's too heavily instanced for my tastes--the lack of variety in overworld content bums me out. Also not enough stuff to jump on and traverse. Other than that, it's great.

[Daltin]

Agreed for the most part, but the only rebuttal I have is that I really hate how every single pull on a savage/ex/ultimate has me at the exact same GCD at the exact same mechanic, at the exact same time, every single pull, with astronomically low variation.

In WoW I never had this issue or if I did, I certainly never felt it.

Can't really argue this; other than offer my own small rebuttal.

There are minimal instances where your GCDs can change, depending on those very few fights where abilities aren't locked into Role, or are somewhat randomized, such as ES8 Light's Rampart. Depending on the strategy used, you may actually lose uptime, depending on if you got chained, or if you have to do the first set of towers. There was one PF strat I believe (I don't use PF), that required extremely heavy kiting on the outside of the arena. I'm not sure which region that was, or even what that particular strategy was called. We used a Japanese method ourselves that probably had chained people missing 1 or 2 GCDs, 0 if they were exceptionally greedy.

99% of the time, you're absolutely right. You're locked into rotation. I do wish there was more variance, or even fights with adds. Not really since Alexander has there been a fight that I can recall that had waves of constant adds to deal with. Shiva had that very small add phase that lasted 30 seconds of a 12 minute fight. Give me a Darmac fight in XIV where we deal with adds constantly. Let us use our AOE toolkit again in something other than mega-dungeon-pulls during roulettes.

[Tenjen]

people keep making "weeb" comments as a criticism as if it wont just make us glaze over anything they have to say or follow up with.

Its final fantasy. The "accusation" is on level with the idiots who said "WoW is bad cause its cartoony"

These post seem to have the primary intent of just saying it for its own sake, as if its a meme.

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I'm sure this one has been beaten more than a dead horse but the biggest problem I have is that final is in the name but it never is the final one.

its either they were worried the first game would be the swansong for the company at the time but it ended up being a huge success so they managed to keep going or they just wanted a fancy name as long as it let them use FF initials which fit in well with roman numerals.

Its sorta fitting now given how it combines essentially all genre's of fantasy together so its a "final fantasy"

[Kikoku]

Years back I think before the current expansion they gave away the base game via Twitch for fellow prime members. I played the hell out of my free time to the point I maxed everything to 50 within the base game and I mean EVERYTHING, Combat/Crafting/Gather. With that being said all my criticisms about the game only go up to 50.

Before starting I just want to say crafting was by far my favorite thing about XIV and I considered playing more just for it. When it comes to MMORPGs I like playing the economy and making my gold/gil. So I enjoyed making my sales, however I did not like the fact that you could increase your cap of market listings by adding more retainers via the cash shop. I'm all for capped listings, but that fact you put a paywall on listings to the point where if you want to post more you had to shell out real money. I would slightly be okay with it if it was a one time deal, but it was a monthly billing per extra retainer. If everyone had the same amount of listings then okay I understand, but this little thing annoyed me and ultimately this was the big thing that turned me away from XIV.

The next thing was the combat. People kept telling me, "Combat is much better at the higher levels" and perhaps they are right, but for me combat was so boring 1-50. Remember I only played the base game, so all my combat sampling was from 1-50. It didn't feel fluid enough for me and lacked. I can't honestly think of one class I enjoyed, considering I played them all to 50. The only little neat thing I do recall is the BRD able to play instruments which I admit was super fun to play songs in the city.

Lastly was the shit ton of story you had to do. I'm not even sure if I finished it, but omg was it tedious. I hate story being forced on me. I'm okay with getting some story, but I honestly feel like they should just let you skip the story without having to buy it.

TLDR; Crafting GOOD. Market listing limited for basic sub without having to pay for more retainers monthly is stupid. Combat MEH. Story TOO LONG - let me skip it for free.

[Wangming]

Coil 9 is also an enormous outlier. Did you do progression on it by any chance? Nael was one of the hardest fights I've ever personally done in my raiding career. I would never compare a heroic endboss to Nael.

FF14 and WoW raids both create difficulty through different means. In FF14 figuring out the solution to the obscure mechanics and having all 8 people consistently do them correctly is the challenge.

WoW creates its difficulty through decision fatigue. Overwhelming you with decisions that usually soft wipe you over time (resource strangulation, whether it's DPS, HPS or space, etc.), but generally the insta wipes are relegated to just a few players responsibilities so it's helpful to assign it to the most capable.

.

I hear you, but we ARE talking about Sylvanas. One of the central characters of the game. I know she is not an end boss but her fight should be as epic as Arthas. Don't you think?

[infinitemeridian]

I'm only level 30, so I know things will get better, but the combat leaves a lot to be desired. I know this isn't wow, but a lot of the abilities just feel downright unresponsive - as an ARC, I have to press raging strikes or leg graze multiple times for them to activate. Not sure if the game has inherent lag or if they are being locked behind animations finishing, but it usually happens with off-GCD abilities. The animations, while flashy, don't really feel very grounded or realistic for the abilities, and they're pretty bland, so it's really hard to tell what class someone is playing if I'm watching a stream.

This is a minor gripe, but I really like that in WoW, you can immediately tell what spec / class someone is playing just from their hotbars - the UI / Art is clean and simplistic and the animations / spell effects feel more grounded in the fantasy of the spell. It would go a long way for me at least if the ability icons were spruced up to be a bit cleaner and the animations given a second pass, but I doubt that is likely at this point. The classes themselves, while it's cool that they have unique stories, seem to be missing a lot in terms of playstyle customization and flavor (talents, trinkets, tier sets, abilities that aren't simply used for combat and have edge scenarios like Eyes of the Beast, Ritual of Doom, Death Gate, Ghost Wolf, etc.).

Also, the glamour system, while impressive in its options, seems overly complicated and limited compared to WoW's transmog system. With so many jobs and styles, why can you only store 400 pieces to use? Why do they have to be physical objects? I don't even mind the need for consumables to mog at all, but it would go a long way to have a collection window that simply stored all looted pieces you've acquired and you never have to worry about running out of space or having to reacquire pieces.

Finally, the world is pretty impressive in the cities / towns - they feel alive and full of bustle, but the open fields out in at least the ARR zones feel generic and ugly. Not to mention you can't swim and there's invisible walls everywhere really brings things down. The mobs just kind walk around, they don't do anything interesting or special, and most of them look super out of place. I know it's FF, but man seeing giant ladybugs and those ugly-ass octopus things with the buggy eyes everywhere is pretty immersion breaking. I know WoW isn't super stellar in this regard, but recent expacs at least make an attempt to have enemies that make sense for the area and wildlife that looks like it lives there.

[Hyral]

Did it stop producing the content that you enjoy?

Yes, actually. ShB has been cut content left and right. Seeing the focus on Bozja while everything else suffers killed a lot of my interest as well.

[Echo of Soul]

Also, the glamour system, while impressive in its options, seems overly complicated and limited compared to WoW's transmog system. With so many jobs and styles, why can you only store 400 pieces to use? Why do they have to be physical objects?

I'm sure it's in their backlog and it's simply a case of resources. They have a pretty strict schedule with certain things that have to go into certain patches. Rebuilding existing systems would likely cost us a piece of experimental content that they tend to include each expansion.

However now that the game is growing rapidly they may be able to grow the team and rebuild some of the annoyances, we can only hope.

[Wangming]

I'm sure it's in their backlog and it's simply a case of resources. They have a pretty strict schedule with certain things that have to go into certain patches. Rebuilding existing systems would likely cost us a piece of experimental content that they tend to include each expansion.

However now that the game is growing rapidly they may be able to grow the team and rebuild some of the annoyances, we can only hope.

Yeah. I mean even Yoshi-P acknowledges that the glamour system is shite. He just doesn't have the same funding as WoW so he has to make do with what he was.

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Yes, actually. ShB has been cut content left and right.

Might have something to do with covid and Soken's cancer.

[Rogalicus]

at least the ARR zones feel generic and ugly

In retrospective ARR zones are the most detailed and beautiful in the game. Starting from HW you'll be looking at much bigger empty shit with late PS2-early PS3 textures.

[Stardrift]

Fake open world. Loading screens for entering zones. Invisible walls everywhere.

And that intro, man. God damn that intro has got to be the worst thing I've ever experienced in a video game, ever.

[TidalConflux]

Not to mention you can't swim and there's invisible walls everywhere really brings things down.

Swimming and deep water diving more comes out in Stormblood.

[Wrecktangle]

I hear you, but we ARE talking about Sylvanas. One of the central characters of the game. I know she is not an end boss but her fight should be as epic as Arthas. Don't you think?

What makes a fight epic? Why was the LK fight epic to you? I know why it was to me, but I'm more curious to you. I did watch some heroic PTR testing of Sylvanas and it certainly looked like there were more than 5 mechanics and multiple transition phases/room changes, but hard to tell from the video I saw what they were or what they did.

Yeah. I mean even Yoshi-P acknowledges that the glamour system is shite. He just doesn't have the same funding as WoW so he has to make do with what he was.

How do you know this to state this so matter of factly? Is this publicly available information I wasn't aware of? We do know factually that FF14's had a larger dev team than WoW's for several expansions, although they have historically had less battle designers, a constraint that Yoshi P has complained about significantly, not that he doesn't want to hire more, simply that there aren't anymore to hire who speak Japanese apparently.

[Echo of Soul]

We do know factually that FF14's had a larger dev team than WoW's for several expansions, although they have historically had less battle designers, a constraint that Yoshi P has complained about significantly, not that he doesn't want to hire more, simply that there aren't anymore to hire who speak Japanese apparently.

Really? Where can I read about these facts? I always thought that Blizzard had a lot more resources but since I hadn't seen any numbers it was just guess work.

[Wangming]

What makes a fight epic? Why was the LK fight epic to you? I know why it was to me, but I'm more curious to you. I did watch some heroic PTR testing of Sylvanas and it certainly looked like there were more than 5 mechanics and multiple transition phases/room changes, but hard to tell from the video I saw what they were or what they did.



How do you know this to state this so matter of factly? Is this publicly available information I wasn't aware of? We do know factually that FF14's had a larger dev team than WoW's for several expansions, although they have historically had less battle designers, a constraint that Yoshi P has complained about significantly, not that he doesn't want to hire more, simply that there aren't anymore to hire who speak Japanese apparently.

That was kinda my original point. If you are used to FFXIV fights, WoW fights look boring. If you are used to WoW fights, FFXIV fights look boring. Look being the important part. Both of them are pretty fucking hard when you are inside them but in diffferent ways.

I guess my problem with the Sylvanas fight is that the mechanics don't seem all that creative.

As for the second part: He said so in an interview. Like they flat out asked why we don't have a transmog log like WoW. And he said he would love to do that if he had the same resources as WoW. Either funding or resources, don't remember the exact wording. There are a lot of things he wants to do but cant.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Besides the RNG in WoW fights, one big design thing I've noticed is that in WoW boss fights, both tanks are almost always tanking something, be it the boss or adds. Whereas in FFXIV, for 90% of the fight you have one tank not tanking anything. He just occasionally helps mitigate for the other tank. Otherwise he's useless.

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As for "epic boss fights", I think Steps of Faith, is pretty memorable, though it is admittedly a more WoW-esque boss fight and FFXIV never really did anything like it again.

Otherwise, I think the "epicness" of FFXIV fights comes less down to design, and more of the presentation in terms of graphics, music timing, and cutscenes. Susano and Varis have the cool spectacle where you have a tank standing up and holding back the boss' sword with all of their might while the DPS race to burn down the add. Tsukiyomi has a pretty nice intermission phase for storytelling purposes/atmosphere. Emerald Weapon has a really cool intermission cutscene where you pretty much flashback to the conquest of Terncliff 20 years ago, with the second phase of that boss fight taking place in the flashback with the whole scene tinged gold and there are buildings on blue cerlueam fire. It would have been more atmospheric if you had to run through this village to reach the boss at the end. Hades has a dramatic second phase where the screen turns black and the music fades out... and then wham, the chorus kicks in and the darkness is sucked up and the true final boss emerges. Seat of Sacrifice has a decent intermission cutscene. Again, none of this is really fight design stuff, just presentation.

The only WoW fight I can think of that had similar dramatic presentation comparable to a FFXIV fight was Garrosh (where occasionally you are sucked into one of Garrosh's visions) and Killrogg (where you get sucked into a vision of your own death. Sadly that never happened in Legion. You lied to me Blizzard!). That said, WoW fights also have voice acted dialogue which makes the fights feel more climatic (it's very hard to read the dialogue boxes in FFXIV while also trying to look at the AoEs on the ground and your rotation).

[Polybius]

PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY SAID THAT?! Holy shit. I hope the people that say that stretched before all those mental gymnastics.

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I don't see how you can say this in earnest. the raid design in WoW is child's play compared to everything I've experienced in FFXIV.

You need good memory in xiv, but you need to be good at reacting in WoW. One has RNG built in mechanics, guess which.

[Echo of Soul]

You need good memory in xiv, but you need to be good at reacting in WoW. One has RNG built in mechanics, guess which.

I agree that FFXIV encounters are definitely more taxing mentally, it's almost like doing math. I've gotten through WoW encounters on pure adrenaline some times, but I find that more exhausting. After a progression night in WoW I feel more exhausted physically, in FFXIV it's more the brain that runs out of juice.
But I don't think that the FFXIV encounters are harder. Equal maybe but definitely not harder. They're difficult in different ways to it's hard to compare them really.