What problems do you have with Final Fantasy 14?

[T-34]

Again, it just sounds like you just want to be able to harass people over their performance if it doesn't meet your standards and are mad FFXIV doesn't let you do that openly. That's a good thing, IMO. Because it keeps the competitiveness out of the casual stuff, and let's those who want to do, do it. It doesn't have to be some universally applied mindset like you seem to think it is, because the WoW community doesn't even do that.

Funny, I had the exact samme experience when I played FFXIV. Very often you had persons in your groups that activly tried to be as bad as possible and who tried to bait people to call them out so they could report them.
There are a lot of people in FFXIV that just want to harass and make the in-game experience miserable for ordinary players that just want to do their best.

[TheRevenantHero]

It seems that you and I have the exact same opinion You just have that opinion about WoW, I have it about FFXIV.

Except WoW is actually toxic as fuck. You are pretty much encouraged to harass and belittle people in WoW. Meanwhile, if you're a toxic elitist in FFXIV you get punished. As you should be.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny, I had the exact samme experience when I played FFXIV. Very often you had persons in your groups that activly tried to be as bad as possible and who tried to bait people to call them out so they could report them.
There are a lot of people in FFXIV that just want to harass and make the in-game experience miserable for ordinary players that just want to do their best.

There's a word for those people. They're called bored WoW players.

[Echo of Soul]

Funny, I had the exact samme experience when I played FFXIV. Very often you had persons in your groups that activly tried to be as bad as possible and who tried to bait people to call them out so they could report them.

And how do you know that's what they were doing and not genuinely bad? Did they tell you that or is that how you convinced yourself that the ban you recieved was actually the victim's fault?

[T-34]

Except WoW is actually toxic as fuck. You are pretty much encouraged to harass and belittle people in WoW. Meanwhile, if you're a toxic elitist in FFXIV you get punished. As you should be.

Your vocabulary and expressions are quite typical of my experience with group play in FFXIV.
People using your expressions and vocabulary in WoW would have gotten an infraction in-game very quickly.
I think you are confusing the two games.

[Katchii]

Funny, I had the exact samme experience when I played FFXIV. Very often you had persons in your groups that activly tried to be as bad as possible and who tried to bait people to call them out so they could report them.
There are a lot of people in FFXIV that just want to harass and make the in-game experience miserable for ordinary players that just want to do their best.

So you're trying to claim that people who are bad, are actively harassing you because they're not performing to your high standards?

And you're simultaneously trying to say this doesn't happen in WoW?

Seriously?

You're bonkers.

Thank you for not playing FFXIV.

[Tyris Flare]

There's some real Atlas Shrugged going on here.

[TheRevenantHero]

Your vocabulary and expressions are quite typical of my experience with group play in FFXIV.
People using your expressions and vocabulary in WoW would have gotten an infraction in-game very quickly.
I think you are confusing the two games.

Except you're not even remotely right. Nobody is going to get on your case for how you play the game. Nobody is going to report you unless you're being a jerk in chat. Since you are claiming people report others for "playing their character the very best they can" shows that you probably got suspended for harassing people about their performance and used DPS meters to shame people. Like people do constantly in WoW.

As Katchii said, thank you for no longer playing FFXIV

[T-34]

And how do you know that's what they were doing and not genuinely bad? Did they tell you that or is that how you convinced yourself that the ban you recieved was actually the victim's fault?

Why do you think that I got a ban? I was warned before I tried FFXIV that people would try to bait you so they could report you in order to get you a ban. I was very careful tip-toing around the baiters. Some of the baiters were quite creative, if only they had used the same creativity to become better at the game...

As a social experience FFXIV was most interesting. It reminded me a lot of an old roleplaying game called Paranoia:
Everyone is supposed to pretend to be happy and like everybody else and you have to pretend not tohave any knowledge of underlying systems/issues.

If you reveal that you have any knowledge - for example in the case of FFXIV that someone is AFK or only auto-attacking then you reveal that you have knowledge about underlying systems = you are an enemy of the state and the happy, or in case of FFXIV the entitled player(s) will snitch on you as you aren't supposed to have knowledge about others performance = knowledge of the system.

The exact same experience is to be had in totalitarian states, where everyone knows how the system really is, but if you say it out loud then you will be persecuted.

I am just giving my opinion on the game, not because I want the game to change, but because if someone who hasn't played the game should read this thread then I want him to have the viewpoint from a player that thinks that it is rude not to do your best when you interact with other people.

[Biggles Worth]

Loading every zone.

[T-34]

So you're trying to claim that people who are bad, are actively harassing you because they're not performing to your high standards?

In WoW a person who makes the in-game experience toxic for the majority in the group by not doing his best can be called out and kicked by the group. That is fully supported by Blizzard.
Blizzard has the stance that you aren't "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.
In FFXIV you a "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.

[Katchii]

In WoW a person who makes the in-game experience toxic for the majority in the group by not doing his best can be called out and kicked by the group. That is fully supported by Blizzard.
Blizzard has the stance that you aren't "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.
In FFXIV you a "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.

Got it. Thank you for clarifying that you're just being an elitist prick about this.

[Big Thanks]

In WoW a person who makes the in-game experience toxic for the majority in the group by not doing his best can be called out and kicked by the group. That is fully supported by Blizzard.
Blizzard has the stance that you aren't "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.
In FFXIV you a "protected species" if you don't want to respect the time of your fellow gamer.

So many questions...
What content did you do that was so hard you had to communicate to others how to play the game to save time?
This is all very sus

[Katchii]

Why do you think that I got a ban? I was warned before I tried FFXIV that people would try to bait you so they could report you in order to get you a ban. I was very careful tip-toing around the baiters. Some of the baiters were quite creative, if only they had used the same creativity to become better at the game...

As a social experience FFXIV was most interesting. It reminded me a lot of an old roleplaying game called Paranoia:
Everyone is supposed to pretend to be happy and like everybody else and you have to pretend not tohave any knowledge of underlying systems/issues.

If you reveal that you have any knowledge - for example in the case of FFXIV that someone is AFK or only auto-attacking then you reveal that you have knowledge about underlying systems = you are an enemy of the state and the happy, or in case of FFXIV the entitled player(s) will snitch on you as you aren't supposed to have knowledge about others performance = knowledge of the system.

The exact same experience is to be had in totalitarian states, where everyone knows how the system really is, but if you say it out loud then you will be persecuted.

I am just giving my opinion on the game, not because I want the game to change, but because if someone who hasn't played the game should read this thread then I want him to have the viewpoint from a player that thinks that it is rude not to do your best when you interact with other people.

Point of order here.

You are able to point out that people are afk, or that they are performing badly by pointing to things like, they're not moving, they're not casting, they're only auto-attacking. you just can't use exact numbers or any other kind of indicator that highlights that you're using ACT to prove it.

Being AFK is a valid reason to be kicked from a group in FFXIV.

[TheRevenantHero]

Why do you think that I got a ban? I was warned before I tried FFXIV that people would try to bait you so they could report you in order to get you a ban. I was very careful tip-toing around the baiters. Some of the baiters were quite creative, if only they had used the same creativity to become better at the game...

As a social experience FFXIV was most interesting. It reminded me a lot of an old roleplaying game called Paranoia:
Everyone is supposed to pretend to be happy and like everybody else and you have to pretend not tohave any knowledge of underlying systems/issues.

If you reveal that you have any knowledge - for example in the case of FFXIV that someone is AFK or only auto-attacking then you reveal that you have knowledge about underlying systems = you are an enemy of the state and the happy, or in case of FFXIV the entitled player(s) will snitch on you as you aren't supposed to have knowledge about others performance = knowledge of the system.

The exact same experience is to be had in totalitarian states, where everyone knows how the system really is, but if you say it out loud then you will be persecuted.

I am just giving my opinion on the game, not because I want the game to change, but because if someone who hasn't played the game should read this thread then I want him to have the viewpoint from a player that thinks that it is rude not to do your best when you interact with other people.

Literally nobody does that. Whoever told you that people will bait you is a liar or you are lying about being told that. I've never seen it happen even once. I see the complete opposite. Everyone I encounter is friendly and helpful.

Nobody has to pretend they're happy and like everyone else. They're just not allowed to be toxic pricks like in WoW. You can get away with being toxic and chastising players for the smallest things in WoW. That doesn't fly in FFXIV. Your examples of people "having knowledge about other's performance" is 100% false. Stop spreading lies, dude. Nobody "snitches" on people who knowing who is or isn't afk. The only people who get suspended are people who are being dicks in the in game chat.

Grow up and stop comparing a game to a totalitarian state especially when you're 100% wrong. Everything you've said so far proves you've never played the game and just listened to anecdotal comments from your echo chamber friends list.

[Katchii]

So many questions...
What content did you do that was so hard you had to communicate to others how to play the game to save time?

That's not what he's arguing. He's saying because people aren't playing optimally, in whatever content he was doing, that they're harassing him because he has no recourse. He can't kick them for poor performance, he can't kick them for wasting time, etc...

But with that said, I won't pretend that the performance of the group doesn't have a pretty significant impact on how long it takes to complete it. @Wrecktangle has been on multiple times showcasing just how different completion times of dungeons can be based on group performance. A fully optimal group doing everything "right" takes ~10-12 minutes to complete a dungeon, whereas an unoptimal group doing a lot of things wrong will take 20+ minutes to finish. That's a significant difference. Is it life changing and enough to get THIS bent out of shape over? Not in my opinion no, for a few reasons. 1) it's minutes of your life spent in a game you're supposedly playing to enjoy. Shouldn't be THAT big of a deal, but most importantly 2) If you're using the RANDOM duty finder you will be placed in a group of random players with random levels of skill, ability, etc... it's a completely unreasonable expectation to think you'll be getting optimal performance from that kind of group consistently.

[Rogalicus]

If you're using the RANDOM duty finder you will be placed in a group of random players with random levels of skill, ability, etc... it's a completely unreasonable expectation to think you'll be getting optimal performance from that kind of group consistently.

AFAIR in Japan DF is only used for competent groups and less skilled players are expected to get their groups from PF, where they can specify that they are not expecting high performance. I think it's a much healthier system.

[Echo of Soul]

That's not what he's arguing. He's saying because people aren't playing optimally, in whatever content he was doing, that they're harassing him because he has no recourse. He can't kick them for poor performance, he can't kick them for wasting time, etc...

But with that said, I won't pretend that the performance of the group doesn't have a pretty significant impact on how long it takes to complete it. @Wrecktangle has been on multiple times showcasing just how different completion times of dungeons can be based on group performance. A fully optimal group doing everything "right" takes ~10-12 minutes to complete a dungeon, whereas an unoptimal group doing a lot of things wrong will take 20+ minutes to finish. That's a significant difference. Is it life changing and enough to get THIS bent out of shape over? Not in my opinion no, for a few reasons. 1) it's minutes of your life spent in a game you're supposedly playing to enjoy. Shouldn't be THAT big of a deal, but most importantly 2) If you're using the RANDOM duty finder you will be placed in a group of random players with random levels of skill, ability, etc... it's a completely unreasonable expectation to think you'll be getting optimal performance from that kind of group consistently.

Another important thing that I'd like to note is that the fastest run isn't necessarily the most fun run.
Talking to people, socializing, helping new players understand the encounters are often the runs where I feel that I had a genuinely good time.
And then we had E12 that I did today where everyone died except two paladins and a dancer and we watched them take the boss down from 40% to 0%. It took a heck of a long time but it was captivating to watch.

[Katchii]

AFAIR in Japan DF is only used for competent groups and less skilled players are expected to get their groups from PF, where they can specify that they are not expecting high performance. I think it's a much healthier system.

I don't disagree, but that's not how it works in pretty much any other geography. the person in question here is not playing in Japan, AFAIK.

- - - Updated - - -

Another important thing that I'd like to note is that the fastest run isn't necessarily the most fun run.
Talking to people, socializing, helping new players understand the encounters are often the runs where I feel that I had a genuinely good time.
And then we had E12 that I did today where everyone died except two paladins and a dancer and we watched them take the boss down from 40% to 0%. It took a heck of a long time but it was captivating to watch.

Agreed here. It really all depends on what your goal is, and expecting everyone to have the same goal is another unreasonable expectation.

[Echo of Soul]

But if people are looking for fast runs it's always; ALWAYS, better to PF (Party Finder) it to play with like minded people. Relying purely on DF (Duty Finder) to make your party for you is always a mixed bag.

Like in any game that has matchmade content really. It should neither be surprising or infuriating.

[Wrecktangle]

You're talking to someone who is a WoW diehard. They're used to toxic elitists crucifying anyone who doesn't play 100% optimally. And that's why I love FFXIV. That kind of shit is not only frowned upon but can net you a suspension. As a result, the game pretty much only has helpful players who are willing to give people pointers and be patient with them about getting better. When I first started tanking in FFXIV, pretty much every group I got into would tell me wipes were ok when I told them at the start I was new. They also gave me pointers about what CDs to use when, how best to maintain aggro, and would say things like "No worries, you're learning " if I died and still said it even if it resulted in a wipe. It's been an odd culture shock going from the toxicity of WoW to the wonderful community of FFXIV.

Uh.... Did you even read my post? It was directed at you...

"Hey bro, wtf are you doing? this is the 10th time you've f this up tonight. last chance before we gotta remove u bro, sorry" is a childish and toxic thing to say. You didn't say you tried explaining things to them. As a matter of fact, your language implies you expect them to just know what they're doing. In all my years of playing MMOs, I've never seen a person fuck up the same way 10 times if they were given an explanation. I've only seen it happen when the raid leader expected everyone to just know exactly what they were doing and scolded people for asking questions.

You never once said that the person messing up was told what to do. You led with the toxic comment. And if you're saying something like "hey bro wtf are you doing" then you absolutely have belittled people and were lying when you said you haven't.

To be fair, the quote you're repeating doesn't sound at all toxic to me...

But anyway moving on - It depends on the context and the fact that you're not taking that into consideration shows you're not as well versed in this game or community as you think you are. How long have you been playing and what level is your main/level?

I.e. If we're in a clear party for the new EX, and someone messes up the same mechanic 5x from an earlier phase, the party isn't toxic for calling that player out or removing them. The player who failed is because they didn't respect 7 other players time or effort. This happens EVERY patch.

If it's a learning party? Try and explain and help, but in a clear or farm it's not the parties responsibility to make sure you know everything, ESPECIALLY if you didn't speak up when you made a mistake the 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd... time.

If it's matched content if ANYONE dies to ANYTHING 5x in the same pull I will most certainly have questions because the content is so trivial that it means they're doing something egregiously wrong (i.e. something that they shouldn't be doing while doing grouped content IMO).

Except WoW is actually toxic as fuck. You are pretty much encouraged to harass and belittle people in WoW. Meanwhile, if you're a toxic elitist in FFXIV you get punished. As you should be.

Interesting. Despite playing WoW for over 10+ years I've never felt encouraged or a desire to harass or belittle someone there? If it's any consolation I've never felt it in FF14 either, but I've come close on a small handful of occasions (Shield Lob Paladin, the person intentionally trolling 24 man raids, etc.).

Except you're not even remotely right. Nobody is going to get on your case for how you play the game. Nobody is going to report you unless you're being a jerk in chat. Since you are claiming people report others for "playing their character the very best they can" shows that you probably got suspended for harassing people about their performance and used DPS meters to shame people. Like people do constantly in WoW.

As Katchii said, thank you for no longer playing FFXIV

Fun fact, after I had a REALLY annoying experience in a 24 man (a player and his FC were intentionally trolling) I decided to give my own social experiment a shot. I joined a 24 man, and I basically just auto attacked and I deliberately put on gear significantly below the ilvl/mismatched stats.

2 People called me out for it, I just apologized and said sorry with a . They didn't call me out rudely, they weren't wrong in that I was only averaging 271 DPS (last place) in a level 70 24 man.

Those players got harassed and accused of running DPS meters, and 1 of them even got kicked and people all said they reported him and consoled me.

I was a straight fucking villain and yet people praised me and tried to help me by offering tips (tips that were actually wrong for my job). I never did it again because I felt awful for doing it.

Point of order here.

You are able to point out that people are afk, or that they are performing badly by pointing to things like, they're not moving, they're not casting, they're only auto-attacking. you just can't use exact numbers or any other kind of indicator that highlights that you're using ACT to prove it.

Being AFK is a valid reason to be kicked from a group in FFXIV.

I always dislike this rebuttal. It's one thing to stop and watch that (at the cost of my own performance), but it's also hard to make sure other people are noticing it simultaneously and that's a lot of wasted energy/effort to track, something an addon does trivially and without emotional interference.

Another important thing that I'd like to note is that the fastest run isn't necessarily the most fun run.
Talking to people, socializing, helping new players understand the encounters are often the runs where I feel that I had a genuinely good time.
And then we had E12 that I did today where everyone died except two paladins and a dancer and we watched them take the boss down from 40% to 0%. It took a heck of a long time but it was captivating to watch.

To be fair I have solo'd EVERY single dungeon boss practically in the end game at some point in an expansion. I'd say that 50% of the time people will get really annoyed if you don't just wipe (and outright harass me over it, but it doesn't bother me) so while you and the other person really enjoyed watching it know, that there are others who don't and it's not fun for them to sit idle for 4 minutes while you guys selfishly fight a boss fight that normally takes half that time to kill from full HP.