What problems do you have with Final Fantasy 14?

[Katchii]

I always dislike this rebuttal. It's one thing to stop and watch that (at the cost of my own performance), but it's also hard to make sure other people are noticing it simultaneously and that's a lot of wasted energy/effort to track, something an addon does trivially and without emotional interference

No disagreement here, just stating that it's possible.

If the only way to see that someone is not performing optimally is through the use of ACT, then it's going to be somewhat difficult to explain that because of it being against the TOS and the potential for someone to report you over it.

Maybe I'm just used to it because I didn't use ACT for a LONG time, and still only turn it on occasionally, but it's not that difficult to watch for those things, at least not in random dungeons. In higher end things where there are lots of things to watch out for and move around for, it would absolutely be very difficult if not impossible to do so without impacting your own performance, but those aren't the kinds of things the person we're responding to was commenting about.

[KrayZ33]

Fun fact, after I had a REALLY annoying experience in a 24 man (a player and his FC were intentionally trolling) I decided to give my own social experiment a shot. I joined a 24 man, and I basically just auto attacked and I deliberately put on gear significantly below the ilvl/mismatched stats.

2 People called me out for it, I just apologized and said sorry with a . They didn't call me out rudely, they weren't wrong in that I was only averaging 271 DPS (last place) in a level 70 24 man.

Those players got harassed and accused of running DPS meters, and 1 of them even got kicked and people all said they reported him and consoled me.

I was a straight fucking villain and yet people praised me and tried to help me by offering tips (tips that were actually wrong for my job). I never did it again because I felt awful for doing it.

The annoying thing about this is that it's super easy in a 24man to see who is AFK-autoattacking in your group (just your group though)

First: Ingame Threat Meter
Second: Watch his character

Done.

That being said, I remember calling one guy out too and he got kicked shortly afterwards
It was in that one alliance raid with "Cid the Thunderlord" or whatever the boss was called, you know, the cool one with the cool voicelines. (can't remember the alliance raid names except for "Void Ark")

He got into another run later on (I farmed that thing before shadowbringer) and did the same thing.

[Vasilisa]

Loading every zone.

Which takes literary like 5 secs max.

[TheRevenantHero]

Uh.... Did you even read my post? It was directed at you...



To be fair, the quote you're repeating doesn't sound at all toxic to me...

But anyway moving on - It depends on the context and the fact that you're not taking that into consideration shows you're not as well versed in this game or community as you think you are. How long have you been playing and what level is your main/level?

I.e. If we're in a clear party for the new EX, and someone messes up the same mechanic 5x from an earlier phase, the party isn't toxic for calling that player out or removing them. The player who failed is because they didn't respect 7 other players time or effort. This happens EVERY patch.

If it's a learning party? Try and explain and help, but in a clear or farm it's not the parties responsibility to make sure you know everything, ESPECIALLY if you didn't speak up when you made a mistake the 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd... time.

If it's matched content if ANYONE dies to ANYTHING 5x in the same pull I will most certainly have questions because the content is so trivial that it means they're doing something egregiously wrong (i.e. something that they shouldn't be doing while doing grouped content IMO).



Interesting. Despite playing WoW for over 10+ years I've never felt encouraged or a desire to harass or belittle someone there? If it's any consolation I've never felt it in FF14 either, but I've come close on a small handful of occasions (Shield Lob Paladin, the person intentionally trolling 24 man raids, etc.).



Fun fact, after I had a REALLY annoying experience in a 24 man (a player and his FC were intentionally trolling) I decided to give my own social experiment a shot. I joined a 24 man, and I basically just auto attacked and I deliberately put on gear significantly below the ilvl/mismatched stats.

2 People called me out for it, I just apologized and said sorry with a . They didn't call me out rudely, they weren't wrong in that I was only averaging 271 DPS (last place) in a level 70 24 man.

Those players got harassed and accused of running DPS meters, and 1 of them even got kicked and people all said they reported him and consoled me.

I was a straight fucking villain and yet people praised me and tried to help me by offering tips (tips that were actually wrong for my job). I never did it again because I felt awful for doing it.



I always dislike this rebuttal. It's one thing to stop and watch that (at the cost of my own performance), but it's also hard to make sure other people are noticing it simultaneously and that's a lot of wasted energy/effort to track, something an addon does trivially and without emotional interference.



To be fair I have solo'd EVERY single dungeon boss practically in the end game at some point in an expansion. I'd say that 50% of the time people will get really annoyed if you don't just wipe (and outright harass me over it, but it doesn't bother me) so while you and the other person really enjoyed watching it know, that there are others who don't and it's not fun for them to sit idle for 4 minutes while you guys selfishly fight a boss fight that normally takes half that time to kill from full HP.

First off, did the person making a mistake that many times get directions or were they just expected to know what they were doing? If instead of saying to the person after they mess up 2 times "Hey do you know the mechanics?" you just wait until they mess up 5 times then kick them? That's toxic as fuck. Whether it's a learning group or not. It's about not being a jerk to people. It takes two seconds to ask someone if they know the fight. If they say yes and screw up in the same way AGAIN? Then you kick them because they are absolutely a liar and disrespectful of everyone's time.

As for the second point about the community, I don't believe you actually play WoW if you're saying that in earnest. The official forums are filled with elitists. These forums are full of them. In game chats are full of them. I have NEVER come across a raider who didn't belittle people every chance they got. For fuck's sake, people will shame you for your dps IN LEVELING DUNGEONS IN WOW. There is no community I have personally come across that is more toxic than WoW.

As for your 24 man story, I really REALLY don't believe you. I've seen situations like that where someone gets called out for being afk and then when they do it again, nobody says anything. They just boot the person. If someone called you out for being afk in chat, nobody is going to mention damage meters because damage meters weren't posted. And guess what? The people accusing the people of damage meters should have been reported because they were harassing a player that didn't even post meters.

[Echo of Soul]

To be fair I have solo'd EVERY single dungeon boss practically in the end game at some point in an expansion. I'd say that 50% of the time people will get really annoyed if you don't just wipe (and outright harass me over it, but it doesn't bother me) so while you and the other person really enjoyed watching it know, that there are others who don't and it's not fun for them to sit idle for 4 minutes while you guys selfishly fight a boss fight that normally takes half that time to kill from full HP.

There's a pretty big difference between a dungeon boss and E12 though.

[Biggles Worth]

Which takes literary like 5 secs max.

So? Breaks immersion.

[PizzaSHARK]

The game doesn't put anyone over anyone else. This is just your ridiculous persecution complex talking.

No, it really does. Yoshi-P finally gave a straight answer after the thousandth time they were asked about more challenging 4-man content and the response amounted to "we feel like 4-player content puts too much pressure on the individual to succeed" (specifically, healers), and "it's easier to get into larger-groups content."

That last one sounds *insane* - it's a lot easier to find 3 buddies to consistently log in together and do stuff than 7 or 23 or whatever - until you realize that it's a tacit endorsement of "I can't be bothered to play the game well, carry me." He's not quite literally stating that it's intentional that fights be designed with enough leeway (especially with gear) that you can carry people that are doing the absolute bare minimum or less.

To me, this is fucking stupid. Normal modes and, arguably, extreme modes already exist for people that don't really want to "git gud." Normals don't have any kind of challenges associated with them, and the DPS checks on extremes are very, very generous. Neither type of mode contains multiple complex mechanics - extremes usually one "big" mechanic per phase (such as the swords on Emerald phase 2) and everything else is very simple. Also, unlike savages, extremes briefly show you AOE markers before the attacks go off. Not for long enough to react to them and move out, but long enough for the players to very clearly see AOEs and effects before they land, whereas in savages and ultimates it's *purely* paying attention to the spell animations (which often aren't as precise as the AOE markers.)

So there's no reason that they need to be making deliberately challenging content easier for people, nor is it a justification to avoid putting in challenging 4-man content in. But they've cornered the instant gratification playerbase with their game, and they have to stick to it, because if they alienate the "but I want everything without putting in work!" crowd they'll lose a lot of their profits.

I don't know how this stacks up to retail WoW. But you can see shades of it in TBCC's "boost meta," where players are expecting/demanding the ability to spend real money to buy gold and then pay other players gold in order to quickly level up characters.

On the topic of learning aids, I think Square-Enix is one of the worst companies I've ever seen for giving a shit about trying to help players improve.

We already have publicly visible damage boards for PvP, why can't we have them for PvE? At least then players have something to compare different runs and clears to - did I do more damage? Cool, I must be getting better!

There should also be the option to have the game UI flash/highlight which button you should be pressing next in non-competitive content (normals/anything in Duty Finder.) It wouldn't necessarily teach you your rotation but would help ensure that players are pressing *most* of their buttons, pressing them in the right order, and understand how to weave a single oGCD in between GCD attacks.

You can't make the horse drink the water, but Square-Enix isn't even bothering to bring them to the water in the first place, the lazy fucks.

[Osmeric]

To me, this is fucking stupid.

To me, doing anything else would be fucking stupid. The purpose of the game is to make money by attracting average customers, not reward the best players with a game designed for them.

[TheRevenantHero]

To me, doing anything else would be fucking stupid. The purpose of the game is to make money by attracting average customers, not reward the best players with a game designed for them.

This. 100% this. FFXIV is fantastic because ANYONE can get into it. It actively doesn't punish you for not no-lifing the game like WoW does. There are still avenues to play difficult high-end activity. But just because they're not 4 player instances doesn't mean they're lazy. The only reason Blizzard even bothers with the amount of bosses raids anymore is because of LFR. If more people weren't seeing the content, there would be shit raids. This is something Blizzard has actually said in the past. There's no point in catering to the elite few. As a matter of fact, it's typically a waste of resources.

[Echo of Soul]

I'll never understand why people pick MMO's to come and try to flex some kind of elite gamer cred. It's quite literally the worst gaming genre for this "waving my dick around" nonsense.

Go play chess, or a competitive FPS, or a fighting game, or an RTS, or anything else. Whining about how bad a company is because their MMO isn't giving you tough enough bear asses to whack in small group content is patently absurd.

Maybe they're not skilled enough to cut it in those types of games but they really like to believe that they are?

[enigma77]

Its ugly graphic style.

[T-34]

So many questions...
What content did you do that was so hard you had to communicate to others how to play the game to save time?
This is all very sus

Who said anything about hard? Normal and heroic dungeons aren't hard at all in WoW, but you still will meet people that waste the time of the 4 others in the group.
In WoW the time and effort of the majority is respected, because Blizzard provides you with the tool of getting rid of toxic people.
In FFXIV the time and effot of the majority isn't respected, because the developer protects the toxic people.

If it was a single player game then how anyone plays it is completely irrelevant, but this is a multi-player game and the "philosophical question" here is:
Do I want to play a game doesn't stop you from removing people that don't respect the time of their fellow gamer or do I want to play a game that actively protects people that waste other people's time.

One can say that WoW's approach leads to a pressure to become better, while FFXIV leads to a pressure to become as bad as the lowest common denominator.
Both approaches have their consequences in-game, but I for one know what I prefer.
And competitive people that consider starting playing FFXIV should know what game entails.

- - - Updated - - -

To me, doing anything else would be fucking stupid. The purpose of the game is to make money by attracting average customers, not reward the best players with a game designed for them.

You are making the assumption that "average" people don't find it fun to become better at a game.
You are also making the assumption that "average" people can't accept or find it humiliating that other people are better at a game than them.
I think you are mistaking entitled gamers for average gamers.

A good game that entails co-operative competitive elements will have challenging content for people from all skill-levels, time available and play-style.
And self-aware people, no matter if they are "average" or "good" or whatever label you want to put on them will find people of similar skill and play-style and do the content with them and enjoy the process.
Entitled people, no matter if they are "average" or "good", yes you can find entitled people amongst the "good" players, are unable to do so.

Don't confuse average with entitled.

[Vasilisa]

Its ugly graphic style.

De gustibus non est disputandum but I still find it funny to hear this on Wow forums which is ugly as f.... (sorry!)

[Boran]

I have a few gripes with the game. I have played multiple classes to atleast 60 and 2 to 80 in the current expac. I don't really like how daunting and slow the leveling process is if you want to try something new, having to grind fates for hours upon hours is really daunting.

I don't really like the reliance on having to do the entire story before being able to progress further, especially when it comes to starting new expac releases. I understand that most people will say that it's a story driven game and that's to be expected. I get that part of it, I just don't really enjoy the story all that much, I did up to a point but then it started to feel like a job to catch up if I had to take time away from the game.

I used to not like the GCD and slower pace as much but then I kind of got used to it. The main thing I dislike is the inability for me to see if I'm doing well, especially as a DPS, I get that there are 3rd party software that can tell me, but I'd really like an in-game option to see that for myself, even if they make it to where you can't report it to others, so it couldn't be used as tool for bullying, which I'm sure in some situations it would be, but I'd like to see for myself and see how I can improve.

Honestly, I like the game overall I'm just not sure how I'm going to get back into it should I want to with the next expac. The new Reaper class looks pretty cool and I'd like to try it out, but that goes back to my 2nd point, the Story. Also doesn't help that i don't really have the same friends in the game that I used to play a bunch with, and I find making friends, especially in XIV daunting for some reason.

[Cren]

This. 100% this. FFXIV is fantastic because ANYONE can get into it. It actively doesn't punish you for not no-lifing the game like WoW does. There are still avenues to play difficult high-end activity. But just because they're not 4 player instances doesn't mean they're lazy. The only reason Blizzard even bothers with the amount of bosses raids anymore is because of LFR. If more people weren't seeing the content, there would be shit raids. This is something Blizzard has actually said in the past. There's no point in catering to the elite few. As a matter of fact, it's typically a waste of resources.

Jesus i don't think i've ever seen anyone with such a big "hate-boner" for WoW before. It's almost impressive how you get everything to be about WoW. In a thread about FF14 even.....

[Echo of Soul]

I have a few gripes with the game. I have played multiple classes to atleast 60 and 2 to 80 in the current expac. I don't really like how daunting and slow the leveling process is if you want to try something new, having to grind fates for hours upon hours is really daunting.

There are other methods than grinding fates but yeah I agree it's very slow even with the available xp boosts and it's very repetitive.
I wish that they would expand on the trust system and make it available for all dungeons in the game (a lot of work I know) and maybe up the output of the trusts because they don't do nearly as much damage as an average player so the dungeons take a very long time to complete.
Also the xp boost for all jobs below your maximum one could easily be doubled and it would still be slow

[VinceVega]

I think i would like it, if
1. they would move away from making every last male cahracter look like a women... seriously what is up with those hips?
2. Tone down these ridicioulus spell effects. What is up with that? Does anyone actually enjoy that?
3. Make endgame a bit more challenging without just adding ore dance variables.
4. Make Healers viable as healers.... not force them to do more damage than healing
5. And allow addons like damage meters.

Edit: Give me an option to make every last Lalafell invisible.... whoever designed these things has serious issues...

[Necromantic]

How can anyone improve at the elite end, without being called out for their failures and learning from them?

Part of being an adult is having thick skin and being able to take any criticism within bounds

Big difference between leading someone to improve and berating them.

And no, that’s not part of being an adult. Being an adult is about learning to compose yourself in a mature manner.

[Boran]

There are other methods than grinding fates but yeah I agree it's very slow even with the available xp boosts and it's very repetitive.
I wish that they would expand on the trust system and make it available for all dungeons in the game (a lot of work I know) and maybe up the output of the trusts because they don't do nearly as much damage as an average player so the dungeons take a very long time to complete.
Also the xp boost for all jobs below your maximum one could easily be doubled and it would still be slow

Yeah, I knew someone was going to mention this, I thought about that after I wrote it. I know there are other methods, but like you said, it's still very slow, which is my main gripe, especially since leveling isn't the main part of why you play the game really heh

[Necromantic]

I'll never understand why people pick MMO's to come and try to flex some kind of elite gamer cred. It's quite literally the worst gaming genre for this "waving my dick around" nonsense.

Go play chess, or a competitive FPS, or a fighting game, or an RTS, or anything else. Whining about how bad a company is because their MMO isn't giving you tough enough bear asses to whack in small group content is patently absurd.

I agree with this.

Reminded me of a guy I humbled in FFXI who loved to toot his own horn and condescend others. I told him I’m sure the bards will be singing tales of his feats for ages to come.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, I knew someone was going to mention this, I thought about that after I wrote it. I know there are other methods, but like you said, it's still very slow, which is my main gripe, especially since leveling isn't the main part of why you play the game really heh

I’m sure they’ll fix this sometime. WoW did and I’m sure it’ll be semi similar. Or not and make it more and more miserable as each expansion comes out and bank on boosts.