Faction imbalance a social issue? Requiring a social solution?

[Kehego]

Classic: yeah
TBC: nope, illidan was never alliance. Yes he is a member of a race. But that was before there even where humans. And you must have missed the blood elves and orcs we fought and saw everywhere ( and some alliance broken members)
Cata: agree
MoP: BS. It started out balanced. But quickly become Garrosh this, Garrosh that. Vol'jin this. had a troll rebellion patch and a god damm raid in the horde capitol.
WoD: they wanted it to be balanced. but it was orc orc orc.
Legion: euhhhh did you even play legion. val shara was night elf...AND druid zone. Horde has druids. Aszuna yes was alliance. Valheim was neutral. High mountain was horde ( and allied race), and the biggest content of the whole expansion was around a futured horde allied race!! Argus was less content then suramar. Big driving characters....you forget the new lich queen sylvanas, or a certain orc named gul dan? or all those nightborn....
BFAeuuuhhh Horde burned 3 zones a lot of pre quest around it. We fight a battleground there. No real answer how it ended ingame. Like a cinametic etc. Horde city raid vs alliance city dungeon. Raid drops a HORDE themed mount from a alliance boss :S:S. Story about evil sylvanas and brave baine. Ohhh and anduin was somewhere around 2. and Jaina was missing. yes lorderaon was sacked. All the horde story's about saurfang, and the quest. Where you got to pick sides etc. Things we did not even see.
Only pro alliance thing bee mount and i must say mechagone was epic. only win for us. raids in BFA where in Horde zone, horde city, ( 2boss) allaince raid and 2 neutral raids. So a heavy win for horde again.
And if you count Azshara as night elf....holy crap. then we can count all night elf story's as troll. Since they where once trolls.

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Nope i am not. I did say emo elf right? And yes they are. And yes they look nice. For blue smurfs. And nope, we wanted high elves. Not a race of void addicts from a race of former fell addicts.

And i agree nightborne are also piss poor.

And yes mechagnomes have a very strong racial. https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._2020_edition/
most other sources put them behind on them 2. And if they where so OP they would be played by a lot of raiders and pvp players.

And yes , if pvp was played SOOOOO much. but its not. On top of that, because of the broken pve racials most of the best players went horde. So less pvp players to fight with against the horde.

So about facts.
Numbers show horde is more favorite,
1 or 2 racials does not draw/eqaul a lot of broken ones. On top of that, if alliance racials are so OP. The top raiders would change to alliance for it.

And other fact:
WoD is horde centric. Orc raid, Orc raid and Orc raid. Most of the questing and story and mid to late game progression was all around ...ORCS. Also: Garrosh, Thrall, Guldan, Iron HORDE. we got a NEUTRAL khadgar and a alliance crazy dreanei women.

top players went horde for the players, not the racials
orc =! horde. Blackrock spires wasn't a horde instance.

Proof that you don't know/understand anything, M+ on tournament realms are always done with full alliance characters.
Proof that you don't play, void elf customization.

just shut up, please.

[Cazze]

Are these books outside the game? If so, I cannot fathom why Blizzard does this. I'm left confused and disappointed because half the story seems to be written in books or short stories you have to buy in addition to the box game and subscription in order to understand why things are happening at all.

The stories are on the WoW site, you can read them for free.

[huth]

Ah so basically the writers give the unchecked alliance aggression a pass. Gotcha.

No, it's simply that neither side was there on official business and they'd rather not talk about it. Sylvanas' ploy like would have been uncovered much earlier otherwise.

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No, the horde and alliance did not stop the legion. The whole idea was that they both fail to do exactly that, so class halls emerged to stand against the legion.

Which only makes the whole faction barrier = core to the game claim all the more ridiculous.

[Cazze]

Which only makes the whole faction barrier = core to the game claim all the more ridiculous.

Yes, they even have cross faction for pvp, I don't know what stops them from doing it for pve. If you have wm off why not be able to play with the filthy alliance.

I agree that Horde and Alliance factions are the core of the game, but the grouping restriction doesn't make sense in 9/10 situations.

[Coldkil]

It's a social aspect just because you need people to do endgame content. Be it through PUGs or guilds. It's just normal to have people flock toward the most populated servers, on the most populated faction because it's just how it works. More people means better chances at finding groups and guilds and so on.

Players always look at the easier and faster way to get things done. They roll the meta classes, they search for best builds, and they go in the places with most people to be able to play better and in an easier way. The group finder tool made things much easier, yet one side is completely unbalanced.

It may have started for any reason - racials, uniqueness, etc - but the fact is that it's not just a matter of initial choices, it's a continuous flow of people joining the "more successful" side.

The only real way to solve it is to take down the grouping wall between factions for PvE content. It's literally the only way to make it happen - no people would reroll from Horde to Alliance because they're the more popular side, with more players. It's only Alliance going Horde for this reason - much easier to find groups and get things done.

Blizzard is adamant on their stance of not doing this, so the faction imbalance is going to stay and actually only get worse until they make something so OP world first guilds will transfer and with them a lot of followers, basically inverting the trend but not solving the issue.

[baskev]

top players went horde for the players, not the racials
orc =! horde. Blackrock spires wasn't a horde instance.

Proof that you don't know/understand anything, M+ on tournament realms are always done with full alliance characters.
Proof that you don't play, void elf customization.

just shut up, please.

They went there for the racials , and because of that many top players went there. So also for the players. 1 caused the other to happen. Many went there for the troll and orc racials. 2 mini inrage/timewarps.

And i agree, BS was not horde. But seeing as other stuff is also counted as alliance. We can count anything with a orc as horde content right?

Yes, and mythic tournaments are so big...oohh wait they are not. And yes, there are some things alliance is good at. Not denying that. WQ stuff alliance is also a bit better. But raiding in my eyes seeing the numbers is the biggest thing.

Proof that you don't play, void elf customization.? what do you want here? proof that i play, proof that i do not play void elf, proof that i dislike void elf? what is the question here?

And nope. And why? because i am right abouw WoD?

[Yriel]

I do agree in my eyes ( i know not everyone agrees do not start a qoute war please) that the game is more horde focussed. No that does not mean the hord always wins etc. But more that most of the story, cool moments etc are centered around the horde.

What are the cool moments that are centered around the horde?

[baskev]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on some of those as it's a matter of perspective, but some of your pendulum swings still don't validate the idea that the game is "Horde centric" as OP says. Like I said, I personally main Horde to escape from the overarching narrative and enjoy some more grounded experiences, so if "a lot that you do doesn't really matter" qualifies it as being "centric", then I guess I am wrong.

Ohh no, i agree. Some of the OP stuff is not completely correct. I do not think its just the story or the racials. Its a sum of its parts.
And allaince overaching narrative. We have no narrative ( almost non). BFA we had more horde narrative then alliance storylines.

And you are not wrong, you have a opinion. I have a different one.
But from story , focus of raids/dungeons, racials, gear wise, allied race wise. Alliance in my eye's draws the short straw. But would agree there are some minor idiot things at the horde side to.

I don't buy the Azshara is as much related to Night Elves as Night Elves are to Trolls. We have no stories of Night Elves being connected to or embracing those roots, or transitional characters that elaborate on the cultural shift. A majority of who we know Azshara to be, her characterization and motivations are defined by her existence as Queen Azshara of the Night Elves, and she lies at the center of world defining events as such. After she became Naga, her story was one thing - servant of Old Gods making trouble for mortals until we saw her again in BfA. Even in her zone Nazjatar they made a whole section that revolved around historical Night Elf lore.

Ohh yes, but i just pointing out that if you work like this there are ways we can do it the otherway around. Iron horde? Gul dan? Shadowlands is a horde ( former) leader being a big bad again? More pointing out that saying Azshara is alliance is silly. 10.000 years since she was a night elf. She would kill and fight ( and she does) night elves.
Its like saying the lich king was horde and alliance because of arthas and ner zhul.

That said, I'm not sure that I can agree with you that Alliance showing up and owning Horde cities necessarily qualifies as Horde-centric content. I feel for something that revolves around victories and succeeding at warfare, it's actually the opposite.

It does if the story revoles around the raids. We can be replaced by a other force ( mogu, scourge etc). But you as defenders can not. For the horde the raid was there to drive the zandalari to the horde, kill the king etc.
What was our narative? we invade the city to talk to the king?

Let me put it this way. Winning or losing battles does not matter. It's who the story is about. Harry potter does not always win in the books. But still the book is about harry potter.
Saurfang is a good example. He lost/died. But a good part of BFA story was around him fighting sylvanas. What did anduin do? stand still in boralus and open the door for saurfang.


But let me ask you and other people a question we say: there is faction imballance
blizzard also states this. So both alliance and blizzard are wrong? They just made this up for what? brownie points?

and yes maybe i am wrong. But for me faction balance has several causes. Better racials, better stuff like allied races ( yes some where good for alliance to like DI dwarfs and gnomes), better story focus ( or more) and because of many of the previous more player.

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What are the cool moments that are centered around the horde?

Before we start: cool i mean heavy , omg look moments. So they can be not positive to. But they are big epic moments.

Suramar city, saurfang ( most of it) in bfa ( a lot of cool quests) , Iron horde ( big strong army, alliance weak space goats in WoD). etc
I will say: people will have other opinions. This is just mine. What was BFA for instance for the alliance. Searching for Jaina, freeing her death brother and that was it. For the horde it was finding a deeper story. vol'jin ( death of him, muzala etc), sylvannas, saurfang, zandalar etc.


And again i ask people: if we say it, blizzard says it. Why do you think we say it? because we are both wrong? there is no faction imbalance?

[huth]

They went there for the racials , and because of that many top players went there. So also for the players. 1 caused the other to happen. Many went there for the troll and orc racials. 2 mini inrage/timewarps.

Your point being? It's still a social issue now. Solving what caused it back then didn't fix it.

And i agree, BS was not horde. But seeing as other stuff is also counted as alliance. We can count anything with a orc as horde content right?

No.

[baskev]

Your point being? It's still a social issue now. Solving what caused it back then didn't fix it.



No.

Its become in part a social issue. But racials , content is still a part the problem ( story etc). But yeah the problem is now with to many people at one side.

and did you not read the previous stuff. I was making a comparison. And you can. If you think someone who was a night elf 10.000 years ago is still alliance. Then it that logic anything Orc is horde. I myself do not agree with this. But its the logic that is used. So yes in that regard.

[Yriel]

Before we start: cool i mean heavy , omg look moments. So they can be not positive to. But they are big epic moments.

Suramar city, saurfang ( most of it) in bfa ( a lot of cool quests) , Iron horde ( big strong army, alliance weak space goats in WoD). etc
I will say: people will have other opinions. This is just mine. What was BFA for instance for the alliance. Searching for Jaina, freeing her death brother and that was it. For the horde it was finding a deeper story. vol'jin ( death of him, muzala etc), sylvannas, saurfang, zandalar etc.

But on the other side you have Jaina in MoP purging Horde from Dalaran or basically anything else from Jaina where she is super overpowered and saves the day or stuff like genn greymane undoing sylvanas plan in Legion.
If you define that as cool moments both sides have them.

And what do you mean with Saurfang in Bfa, i only saw him in the video sequence, i never saw any "a lot of cool quests" with him. Do you mean the Sylvanas quests?

[Akibaboy]

I do not think its just the story or the racials. Its a sum of its parts.

If I had to personally postulate on why, and probably be wrong, I think it's all due to a decades long snowball effect of some kind.

Since Vanilla, we've had the narrative that "Horde is PvP". Racials are a factor in that for sure, but I also think that 98% of the playerbase (me included) don't play at a level where they're losing because of their racials... but because they read on a forum post or saw a YouTube video from a popular person that "Horde racials are OP", that became their reality too.

I also personally feel that in 2004 or so, that if you were the type of player who saw WoW and was excited to play the game to PvP - compete against, murder, embarrass other actual human beings that there's a predisposition to want to play as a big, green murder machine or a shadows skulking corpse. Someone looking to soak up the environments and quaint stories of (Vanilla) WoW would probably find the wildly more polished environment and quest flow/design of the Alliance lands preferable, and they're likely to be the kind of player that dabbles in PvP for the most part.

So there was nothing inherently bad or disadvantageous about raiding as Horde and you got the benefit of strong, active PvP environments. That created some early mantras that live on and define faction choice to this day. Blizzard could remove all racials and make everything 100% congruent and people would still gravitate Horde regardless because of that understanding about its community.

The same goes for server choice - hop on Twitter and look at some of the big streamer's Faction / server: Horde (Area 52). Why does everyone play on Area 52? Because they heard that everyone plays on Area 52. The idea of maximizing opportunity is what drives people to gravitate towards on partition of the game. It's why in Classic PvE, there's a congregant server for those that want to play Alliance (Pagle), and one for Horde (Mankrik)... you'd be limiting your own opportunity to do otherwise.

Blizzard would have to limit our ability to choose and gravitate towards opportunity to remove imbalance, or make the distinctions superfluous altogether. Sure you can play Horde on X server, but all servers are dynamically shared and you can group with any faction... so "Horde" is just a fun badge you wear that doesn't really do anything.

[Rhlor]

the alliance is the dominant faction in RP! RP is not the problem.

[Kehego]

They went there for the racials , and because of that many top players went there. So also for the players. 1 caused the other to happen. Many went there for the troll and orc racials. 2 mini inrage/timewarps.

And i agree, BS was not horde. But seeing as other stuff is also counted as alliance. We can count anything with a orc as horde content right?

Yes, and mythic tournaments are so big...oohh wait they are not. And yes, there are some things alliance is good at. Not denying that. WQ stuff alliance is also a bit better. But raiding in my eyes seeing the numbers is the biggest thing.

Proof that you don't play, void elf customization.? what do you want here? proof that i play, proof that i do not play void elf, proof that i dislike void elf? what is the question here?

And nope. And why? because i am right abouw WoD?

Because you read and comprehand at a grade 2 level, a lot of things pass you by.

Alliance racials are (and have been better) for both pvp and pve for some time now. Tournament realm race distribution (a place where community doesn't matter, as you go with your own team and play what is 100% the best) is always skewed towards alliance.

The racials have not been any major contribution/detriment to progression, as since vanilla, horde, with inferior pve racials (and sans paladins) got wf kills before alliance counterpart guilds.

Its not and never been a numbers issue. Its been a community issue.
People who want to raid just don't play the faction that wants to dick around in goldshire. Good thing that the factions *aren't* imbalanced, as in population is still 50/50.

Blizzard has been constantly spoonfeeding alliance everything they wanted. If people take it to go roleplay, so be it.

[Ennalorsilvertongue]

do you buy that?

Sounds to me a self created social issue

Analysis: The faction imbalance is, at its core, a mechanical problem before a social one. It's a complex issue that's been exacerbated by a number of factors, but ultimately the solution is simple. People, by nature, are drawn to things that are aesthetically pleasing to them, or fit with their personality/ideals. For example, I prefer the noble/lawful good archetypes that don't routinely pursue genocide; so, I choose Alliance for most characters - that's my first pick. Others might prefer the more rugged, savage brute archetype that struggles with their inner demons; they may be drawn to Orcs, over everything else. Both are perfectly fine choices.

Despite these preferences though, there are those playing for the literal gameplay, and not just the story or aesthetics. These are people who will sacrifice what they'd prefer in favor of a situation that provides a strategic advantage. In other words, people are willing to abandon the races they are initial drawn to in order to join a faction that will give them better chances at succeeding at the game itself.

Solution: Allowing players to have the best of both words is a simple and non-complex fix: eliminate cross faction barriers. We can argue about the highly specific narrative implications re: Teldrassil, sure, but when looking at the faction imbalance as it pertains to the raiding/pvp populations, this is the way to fix it. There is no longer any reason to keep the factions separate; we're way past it on the technology front, and the narrative lends itself to it now anyways.

Let players go with their first pick on aesthetic/ethics/personality traits (race/faction), and ensure that they have access to the competitive guilds/player groups regardless of what they choose. Coupled with free faction changes/race changes, things will balance out.

[Kehego]

Analysis: The faction imbalance is, at its core, a mechanical problem before a social one. It's a complex issue that's been exacerbated by a number of factors, but ultimately the solution is simple. People, by nature, are drawn to things that are aesthetically pleasing to them, or fit with their personality/ideals. For example, I prefer the noble/lawful good archetypes that don't routinely pursue genocide; so, I choose Alliance for most characters - that's my first pick. Others might prefer the more rugged, savage brute archetype that struggles with their inner demons; they may be drawn to Orcs, over everything else. Both are perfectly fine choices.

Despite these preferences though, there are those playing for the literal gameplay, and not just the story or aesthetics. These are people who will sacrifice what they'd prefer in favor of a situation that provides a strategic advantage. In other words, people are willing to abandon the races they are initial drawn to in order to join a faction that will give them better chances at succeeding at the game itself.

Solution: Allowing players to have the best of both words is a simple and non-complex fix: eliminate cross faction barriers. We can argue about the highly specific narrative implications re: Teldrassil, sure, but when looking at the faction imbalance as it pertains to the raiding/pvp populations, this is the way to fix it. There is no longer any reason to keep the factions separate; we're way past it on the technology front, and the narrative lends itself to it now anyways.

Let players go with their first pick on aesthetic/ethics/personality traits (race/faction), and ensure that they have access to the competitive guilds/player groups regardless of what they choose. Coupled with free faction changes/race changes, things will balance out.

no.

go erp in goldshire.

[Advent]

no.

go erp in goldshire.

Good rebuttal. Can you refute his conclusion at all?

[Kehego]

Good rebuttal. Can you refute his conclusion at all?

I didn't refute his conclusion, i refuted his solution.

M+ and raiding is thriving on one side, ganking and roleplaying on the other side.
Make your pick.

the reason to keep factions separate is idk, the entire premise of the IP.

[Advent]

I didn't refute his conclusion, i refuted his solution.

M+ and raiding is thriving on one side, ganking and roleplaying on the other side.
Make your pick.

the reason to keep factions separate is idk, the entire premise of the IP.

I think that's a pretty terrible reason to keep the factions completely separate, especially at this point in time.

[Kehego]

I think that's a pretty terrible reason to keep the factions completely separate, especially at this point in time.

to you, sure.

It's a roleplaying game still, and the idea of cross faction grouping which is something that's paramount to the entire game's identity being demolished because one faction doesn't like doing content?

I'll pass, and a lot of people will also pass.