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  1. #101
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    They're making up excuses to cover up for the real reason why...plain and simple. They've show favoritism with Horde racials and obtainable items for years...who wants a weak racial when you can have a strong one? Who wants a dozen horses when you can have a variety?

    This Blizzcon was really weak and saddening for WoW...
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  2. #102
    You can always rely on Blizzard to do the right thing, after they've exhausted all other alternatives...

    Joining horde and alliance is inevitable. The issue is simply that WoW is not maintainable. Changes we've seen added are relatively minor. We couldn't even have a login screen mail indicator.

    Every excuse they make is to deflect from this.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    They're making up excuses to cover up for the real reason why...plain and simple. They've show favoritism with Horde racials and obtainable items for years...who wants a weak racial when you can have a strong one? Who wants a dozen horses when you can have a variety?

    This Blizzcon was really weak and saddening for WoW...
    Why is oceanic alliance dominated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    OP your point is dead by the end of your first paragraph.

    Alliance and Horde total population being roughly equal but high-end massively skewing Horde shows the issue is not that 'Horde has all the cool stuff and no one new will ever join Alliance'. Because in that case the total pop would skew Horde.

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    Its region speific because it has nothing to do with the actual faction.
    The issue is not Horde or Alliance.
    The issue is that one side is bigger and therefor has an easier time finding people for activities, and over time more and more people make the switch to access this larger pool, which makes the drought on the other side all the greater causing more to switch ect ect and it snowballs along.
    This is 100% it.

    Hard to stop a positive feedback loop.

  4. #104
    It's a social issue now. It started out as a game balance issue though. Most of the top end players are already Horde so if you want to do high end raiding you have to go Horde because that's where the players are.

    Blizzard could perfectly balance racials or remove them completely and it wouldn't fix the issue since at this point it's no longer a game balance issue. Basically, Blizzard took so fucking long to try to fix the issue that it's now not fixable.

    The only real solution is allowing cross-faction raiding.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    pfffff.
    alliance had the humans op for how many years? 8? infact until legion all pvp was basically alliance. still pve was dominated by horde
    No, one alliance race with a powerful PvP racial didn't make up for essentially an entire faction with powerful PvP racials.

  6. #106
    This discussion is interesting, but I honestly don't think Acti-Blizz cares one way, or another if the community didn't complain about it enough for them to make an official statement.
    The design team seems content with their particular vision of the Alliance being the way it is in juxtaposition to the story-writing team keeping everything in the place of Alliance & Horde being "equal forces". Of course, the people who want to take the game's nuances more seriously are going to pick the mathematically better choices which have been mostly on the Horde for quite a while.
    Years of this problem has snowballed, and a fix is currently not efficient work...therefore, they pass the problem onto the player, call it a social issue, and give a vague promise to do something to placate the community frustrations surrounding this issue. It's actually not that big of an issue anyway.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You're missing the actual issue. Horde is now so populous in the high-end organised gameplay areas that it isn't flipping anymore because losing access to that player pool isn't worth the gains from stronger racials.
    The population issue I understand is the greater concern. I'm stating that initially what started these migrations was for power reasons, not population reasons because initially it was skewed the other way. Nobody bothered swapping until racials demanded it, but once racials became the driving factor AND the population was there it became a compounded issue. That's why I'm saying it's a social issue. Because racial balance just tips it the other way again - small shift, then increasing population slide again. To balance it out there needs to be other incentives, possibly social, to be on a less populated faction. Racials cannot be the answer again it just perpetuates the problem.

  8. #108
    The Lightbringer SinR's Avatar
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    its funny that the first time in forever that Alliance racial abilities would be good (Stoneform), they nerf the fuck out of them in the next build by changing the DOT from being a Bleed to something else.
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I Have Shadowlands Beta. Woo?
    Let me know when Transfers are on Beta

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    The population issue I understand is the greater concern. I'm stating that initially what started these migrations was for power reasons, not population reasons because initially it was skewed the other way. Nobody bothered swapping until racials demanded it, but once racials became the driving factor AND the population was there it became a compounded issue. That's why I'm saying it's a social issue. Because racial balance just tips it the other way again - small shift, then increasing population slide again. To balance it out there needs to be other incentives, possibly social, to be on a less populated faction. Racials cannot be the answer again it just perpetuates the problem.
    Read that again. You're still missing the point. Racials no longer matter at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    its funny that the first time in forever that Alliance racial abilities would be good (Stoneform), they nerf the fuck out of them in the next build by changing the DOT from being a Bleed to something else.
    Alliance racials are still overall superior, and that was only for very specific dots that would completely trivialise an encounter mechanic if you could just dispel them.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Read that again. You're still missing the point. Racials no longer matter at all.
    So are we ignoring Goblins on KJ or Dwarfs for even this last raid? Dwarfs got patched, but racials can still impact the competitive environment because of the differing perks and powers they grant (which is why they got patched). Please don't ignore the history of racial relevance in raid tiers, it's important to keep these things in mind when considering why the teams swap to these factions for competitive progress reasons.

    It's disengenuous to say it no longer matters when entire guilds will swap servers and all race change to make use of one benefit, like Rocket Jump, or Stoneform, and so on. Each expansion has had different racial metas for different reasons. Consider the impact these choices have on raid teams please.

  11. #111
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    The issue is that if you attempt to solve the high-end imbalance, you end up with an overall imbalance. Keep in mind that despite the EXTREME imbalance in population at the higher level of play, the overall player base is still evenly divided between Horde and Alliance. If you attempt to move the high-end over to Alliance, you end up with a higher overall Alliance population compared to Horde.

    I think it's fine as-is. Alliance is for casual and ERP-ers, and Horde is for those who want to challenge themselves at harder content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  12. #112
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    So are we ignoring Goblins on KJ or Dwarfs for even this last raid? Dwarfs got patched, but racials can still impact the competitive environment because of the differing perks and powers they grant (which is why they got patched). Please don't ignore the history of racial relevance in raid tiers, it's important to keep these things in mind when considering why the teams swap to these factions for competitive progress reasons.

    It's disengenuous to say it no longer matters when entire guilds will swap servers and all race change to make use of one benefit, like Rocket Jump, or Stoneform, and so on. Each expansion has had different racial metas for different reasons. Consider the impact these choices have on raid teams please.
    Yeah and it only took them like what? 10 years to nerf arcane torrent...I'm surprised Shadowmeld didn't get nerfed because guilds liked to use it in mythic+ competitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    The issue is that if you attempt to solve the high-end imbalance, you end up with an overall imbalance. Keep in mind that despite the EXTREME imbalance in population at the higher level of play, the overall player base is still evenly divided between Horde and Alliance. If you attempt to move the high-end over to Alliance, you end up with a higher overall Alliance population compared to Horde.

    I think it's fine as-is. Alliance is for casual and ERP-ers, and Horde is for those who want to challenge themselves at harder content.
    Alliance is for casual and ERP-ers....yeah no bias there. Why don't you be honest and say you like the imbalance and you don't want it to change...honesty would be refreshing.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  13. #113
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Yeah and it only took them like what? 10 years to nerf arcane torrent...I'm surprised Shadowmeld didn't get nerfed because guilds liked to use it in mythic+ competitions.

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    Alliance is for casual and ERP-ers....yeah no bias there. Why don't you be honest and say you like the imbalance and you don't want it to change...honesty would be refreshing.
    Nearly even 50/50 overall WoW population split between Horde/Alliance. It's fine for one side to be associated with casual players and another with more determined players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Nearly even 50/50 overall WoW population split between Horde/Alliance. It's fine for one side to be associated with casual players and another with more determined players.
    We can always talk about the difference of M+ in higher keys between ally/horde.................... it's dramatic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    No, one alliance race with a powerful PvP racial didn't make up for essentially an entire faction with powerful PvP racials.
    oh yes, it maked up. who care about "powerful" racial, when another has the most powerful by very very very faaaaaar.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    I mean, he's right. Blizzard basically gave the most popular potential alliance race, which was traditionally always alliance and in WC3 even part of the Alliance human faction, and gave it to the Horde. They also made most iconic Alliance heroes friendly towards the Horde and therefore neutral.

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    BArely anyone plays Orcs outside of a fringe minority. The Horde only has a population at this point due to Blizzard giving them Alliance races.
    blizzard wanted to balance the total population. which is not the important thing in this debate, the total population of players is balanced. what is debated here is about the guilds that make endgame content, they go to the horde not because khadgar or anduin are friendly with the horde. They leave because they want to kill a boss faster.

  17. #117
    It started with
    Racial and bgs being horde favored. (Vanilla)

    Then the raids became horde favored due to no racial balancing. (TBC)

    and then the problem started becoming bigger and stretching to quality in questing and experience for the alliance since they where clearly not prioritized by the devs. (Cata+) Why cata is unliked most likely due to the alliance where treated so badly and alot of Alliance players quited.

    Since this point alliance has been dying and it has been supported by the devs.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    oh yes, it maked up. who care about "powerful" racial, when another has the most powerful by very very very faaaaaar.
    Sorry, no. It wasn't the "most powerful by very faaar." And as someone who main'd Alliance Priests and Warlocks since vanilla, the Horde (made up mostly of undead) always had an equivalent of "EMFH". They've always had essentially two PVP trinkets against us. Orcs made it a extremely difficult for our rogues. Tauren were the only race that had a stun CC racial, and only the Horde had racials that actually contributed to DPS. Then TBC came around and Blood Elves (the future most popular race) were given an AoE silence. Horde for a very long time were given all the offensive and PVP oriented racials while Alliance consistently got lame defensive racials. That's a fact.
    Last edited by Amunrasonther; 2021-02-25 at 01:12 PM.

  19. #119
    Cross-faction gameplay should be, exclusively, a gameplay feature.
    Never a lore direction.

  20. #120
    NOTHING is going to attract the masses from Horde to Alliance, simply because a larger pool of players makes things a lot easier.

    Blizz should suck it up, the people against it to stfu, and bring in Cross Faction... strictly for gameplay's sake just like they did for PvP with Mercenaries. They can still retain their Alliance vs Horde lore, and those wanting the player division can turn on War Mode.

    I am getting tired of whiny Alliance players against the idea of Cross Factions, as though they expect a miracle to happen...

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