Page 13 of 20 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
14
15
... LastLast
  1. #241
    At this point, the game has had synergies longer than it ever did without em.

    I mean the argument is like saying WoW never having LFR or D3 never having Rifts. The game has had these features far longer than they didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #242
    They pretty much said they’re going to do something after launch in as many words.

    They can just add a separate option to play with modern changes or stay in classic world. It’s not that hard.

    I’d be more interested in playing with modern updates and community wishlists fulfilled. I’ve already played enough D2 in my life as it was. A change of pace sounds good to me.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    They pretty much said they’re going to do something after launch in as many words.

    They can just add a separate option to play with modern changes or stay in classic world. It’s not that hard.

    I’d be more interested in playing with modern updates and community wishlists fulfilled. I’ve already played enough D2 in my life as it was. A change of pace sounds good to me.
    Well, I wouldn't be against that, but just to be clear, CAN and WILL are not married.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2021-09-21 at 06:16 PM.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    Which is a shame, D2 (LoD) is the pinnacle of aRPG game design. It is easy to play, but has enough depth to keep you occupied and glued to the screen for hundreds of hours. PoE is great, but it just isn't as accessible as D2 was/is and also lacks any "soul". When you play Diablo you feel like you join a world full of demons and angels that are in actual eternal war. In PoE you are stranded because of stuff you did in the past, being exiled... lol so epic, right?

    D2 has solved aRPGs and all other after it are trying to improve it but the core design is almost flawless.
    Its not the pinnacle of aRPG design, it has tons of flaws, path of exile is miles ahead for the aRPG genre and vanilla D3 was far superior, D2 was good in its day and it will be a half decent game with a remaster it doesnt hold a candle to current games out now.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its not the pinnacle of aRPG design, it has tons of flaws, path of exile is miles ahead for the aRPG genre and vanilla D3 was far superior, D2 was good in its day and it will be a half decent game with a remaster it doesnt hold a candle to current games out now.
    Yeah, it was a great game if you like banging your head against the wall over and over again
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its not the pinnacle of aRPG design, it has tons of flaws, path of exile is miles ahead for the aRPG genre and vanilla D3 was far superior, D2 was good in its day and it will be a half decent game with a remaster it doesnt hold a candle to current games out now.
    Since you are a D2 expert you can surely name a couple flaws, although if you use "tons" I expect no less than 10 flaws, otherwise you exaggerated a "ton". ;D

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    Since you are a D2 expert you can surely name a couple flaws, although if you use "tons" I expect no less than 10 flaws, otherwise you exaggerated a "ton". ;D
    the stash system, the potion system, the points and class skill system all had plenty flaws, and if you do 2 mins of research you can find numerous other flaws in the games design, so it was far from being the pinnacle of aRPG design it was just a decent game in its time, doesnt hold a candle to the current aRPGs that are available.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-21 at 10:03 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  8. #248
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    4,959
    Vanilla D3 wasn't superior lol. It wasn't as bad as people are making it out to be, but they certainly missed the mark in a lot of key areas. The game was way to linear in gearing design with items being way to rare. D2 used a lot of base items for rune words, crafting, etc, all the while implementing set items and uniques. D3s major problem was that unique and set items completely sucked and there was no "budget" versions of items to go and farm.

    D2 was the pinnacle of aRPG and with mod support it was better than PoE while PoE was still getting off it's feet. As much as I disagree with direction they've taken PoE recently, it's still the front runner (IMO) in regards to how an aRPG should be built.

    Also while I enjoyed Vanilla D2 for what it was, the game really wasn't complete from a fun perspective and grinding perspective until LoD came out. Playing Vanilla D2 was pretty bland IMO. Synergies in a later patch also made way more builds playable and basically made the game a lot more fun, even if they were pretty simplistic.

    The big faults of D2 was rune words basically being most of the end game over everything else and your entire inventory being filled with charms. If I had to pick one, it was probably charm design TBH.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Vanilla D3 wasn't superior lol. It wasn't as bad as people are making it out to be, but they certainly missed the mark in a lot of key areas. The game was way to linear in gearing design with items being way to rare. D2 used a lot of base items for rune words, crafting, etc, all the while implementing set items and uniques. D3s major problem was that unique and set items completely sucked and there was no "budget" versions of items to go and farm.

    D2 was the pinnacle of aRPG and with mod support it was better than PoE while PoE was still getting off it's feet. As much as I disagree with direction they've taken PoE recently, it's still the front runner (IMO) in regards to how an aRPG should be built.

    Also while I enjoyed Vanilla D2 for what it was, the game really wasn't complete from a fun perspective and grinding perspective until LoD came out. Playing Vanilla D2 was pretty bland IMO. Synergies in a later patch also made way more builds playable and basically made the game a lot more fun, even if they were pretty simplistic.

    The big faults of D2 was rune words basically being most of the end game over everything else and your entire inventory being filled with charms. If I had to pick one, it was probably charm design TBH.
    Claiming something is the pinnacle means there is nothing better, if there was nothing better there would be more ppl playing D2 of which only the hardcore players still play it, PoE and D3 beat it by miles of being a better game. Not played lost ark either yet since waiting on the west release but that game also is better than D2.

    D2 is an old game with old systems, its a decent game but doesnt hold up to whats available now.

    Vanilla D3 you had to put effort into the game to get anywhere and it was challenging, you would struggle to push into act 2 on the hardest difficulty in bad gear. D2 just as linear but there is far less options, you just farm certain bosses and areas depending on what item you want.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-21 at 10:17 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Claiming something is the pinnacle means there is nothing better, if there was nothing better there would be more ppl playing D2 of which only the hardcore players still play it, PoE and D3 beat it by miles of being a better game.
    Just because something is the pinnacle doesn't mean it has to be popular.

    Look at movies. Just because some movie is highly rated doesn't always equate to it being a box office smash that outsells all other movies in existence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Just because something is the pinnacle doesn't mean it has to be popular.

    Look at movies. Just because some movie is highly rated doesn't always equate to it being a box office smash that outsells all other movies in existence.
    D2 has a cult following and thats it, dont claim something is the pinnacle of a genre when barely anyone even plays the game, being the pinnacle is being the best, if noone plays it then its not the best and your claim is just a lie.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2 has a cult following and thats it, dont claim something is the pinnacle of a genre when barely anyone even plays the game, being the pinnacle is being the best, if noone plays it then its not the best and your claim is just a lie.
    It's not mutually exclusive.

    Diablo 2 isn't the most popular game, but in terms of an ARPG design, someone can absolutely say it's the pinnacle of the genre since even current ARPG's have not actually topped its gameplay. Games like PoE just taken the formula and added to it, but it has never actually surpassed Diablo 2 in terms of game design.

    Citizen Kane is a pinnacle of movies. Have you even watched Citizen Kane? I bet you haven't. I bet your friends haven't either. More people have watched Star Wars the Last Jedi than Citizen Kane, it doesn't make the Last Jedi a better movie for it.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-21 at 10:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's not mutually exclusive.

    Diablo 2 isn't the most popular game, but in terms of an ARPG design, someone can absolutely say it's the pinnacle of the genre since even current ARPG's have not actually topped its gameplay. They've just taken the formula and added to it, but it has never actually surpassed Diablo 2 in terms of game design.

    Citizen Kane is a pinnacle of movies. Have you even watched Citizen Kane? I bet you haven't. I bet your friends haven't either.
    D2s gameplay is just average its not bad its not great, its hardly amazing gameplay like you think it is, PoE, Lost Ark, and other aRPGs have much better gameplay so yes many games have far surpassed D2s so called pinnacle gameplay.

    Its impossible to claim anything is the pinnacle of anything, there is always something better that comes along eventually, for a short while something may be the best but it gets old and passes the torch.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  14. #254
    As with the other classic games ... why the hell do you want them changed?
    You got modern follow-ups for them .. Diablo 3 and in a few years Daiblo 4. Or plenty of other similar titles.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2s gameplay is just average its not bad its not great, its hardly amazing gameplay like you think it is, PoE, Lost Ark, and other aRPGs have much better gameplay so yes many games have far surpassed D2s so called pinnacle gameplay.

    Its impossible to claim anything is the pinnacle of anything, there is always something better that comes along eventually, for a short while something may be the best but it gets old and passes the torch.
    Then you're shifting goalposts.

    First you say pinnacle is best of the best and how D2 isn't the best because it isn't popular.

    I explain how the best of the best doesn't have to be popular.

    Now you're saying it's impossible to claim anything as pinnacle because something new always comes along.

    Well that hasn't changed Citizen Kane being considered a pinnacle of movie making, has it? It's still up there, regardless of whether new movies come out or if more and more people come into movies having no awareness of its existence. It's still historically and still considered now as the pinnacle of movies.


    I'll give you that PoE has certainly grown vast and taken a strong hold in the ARPG genre, but the torch hasn't actually been passed from Diablo 2 to PoE. It hasn't actually surpassed D2's game design. It's popular because the devs still pour content into the game and continue it's support, keeping it relevant.

    Just like I'd say Starcraft 2 is still the most popular RTS out there because the devs still continue supporting it and having active tournaments, but if we're talking about the pinnacle of RTS games, it would still be SC1, despite it not being as popular. Much harder to play, way higher learning curve and technical bullshit, but overall it's a MUCH more balanced game that holds up to the test of time, and it does not need continued support in order to remain one of the (if not the) best competitive RTS ever made.

    Or let's talk about Puzzle Games. What would you consider to be the pinnacle of Puzzle games? Arguably, I'd personally give that to Tetris or perhaps even Portal 2. Are these popular? Not at all any more. If we're talking about popularity, then Candy Crush beats them both easily. And I'd hardly call Candy Crush the pinnacle of Puzzle games.

    Pinnacle usually refers to the best regarded in terms of design and execution. Diablo 2 is the pinnacle not only because of its design, but because of its execution - it holds up as a timeless game that has near-infinite gameplay value without any new content required. Compared to PoE, imagine if the devs stop tweaking balance or adding content to the game. It'll hold up for a while but really its strengths come from its content, and not as much through its design. It is a high quality game, but arguably not enough to top the level of Diablo 2. It's strength is in its continued content, not in its overall execution. PoE is almost purely action hack and slash that promotes speed running, while Diablo 2 has speed running in it but is built on a completely different goal of having more integrated RPG elements within, making it a much more atmospheric and cohesive experience than simply being purely a loot-based game.

    Hopefully PoE2 will address some of those issues and bring back some of the much needed core ARPG design back into the series. Right now, it's purely all-action with almost zero RPG involved.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-21 at 11:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    You are the one moving goal posts, if something is the pinnacle then it should be the best and most popular, the gameplay is D2 alone is not that great, all other games have vastly superior gameplay.

    You are the one claiming D2 is the pinnacle of the genre when it isnt, if you claim something is the pinnacle of something then there should be nothing that can beat it no matter how old it is, but diablo 3 alone has beat D2, in terms of current player levels and popularity and just being a better game overall, if barely anyone plays it then its not the pinnacle of the genre no matter how hard you think it is.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    As with the other classic games ... why the hell do you want them changed?
    You got modern follow-ups for them .. Diablo 3 and in a few years Daiblo 4. Or plenty of other similar titles.
    Not changed. New content.

    New content doesn't always equate to changing something. And for those who don't want change, there is always not playing any of the new content.

    An example is Age of Empires 2 HD/Remastered having added a new expansion that adds two completely new armies. It's not changing the style or feel of the original games, it's adding new content. And for anyone who doesn't want to play the expansion? They can opt to play the original. It's not like the core systems themselves have changed to play like AoE 3 or AoE4.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You are the one moving goal posts, if something is the pinnacle then it should be the best and most popular, the gameplay is D2 alone is not that great, all other games have vastly superior gameplay.

    You are the one claiming D2 is the pinnacle of the genre when it isnt, if you claim something is the pinnacle of something then there should be nothing that can beat it no matter how old it is, but diablo 3 alone has beat D2, in terms of current player levels and popularity and just being a better game overall, if barely anyone plays it then its not the pinnacle of the genre no matter how hard you think it is.
    Pinnacle does not mean most popular.

    Again, would you consider Candy Crush to be the pinnacle of puzzle games?

    Would you call Diablo 3 the pinnacle of ARPGs because it beat D2 in sales?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-21 at 11:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Not changed. New content.

    New content doesn't always equate to changing something. And for those who don't want change, there is always not playing any of the new content.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Pinnacle does not mean most popular.

    Again, would you consider Candy Crush to be the pinnacle of puzzle games?

    WOuld you call Diablo 3 the pinnacle of ARPGs?
    Pinnacle means the best, if barely anyone plays it then its not the best is it, so its not the pinnacle of aRPG, you cant claim something is the pinnacle when there is nothing to back it up, D3 sold over 12 million copies you could say currently its the pinnacle of the aRPG genre, or PoE could be the pinnacle of aRPG with its active playerbase that far exceeds D2 even in its prime.

    Player numbers do count in determining if something is the best at something or not.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-21 at 11:17 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2s gameplay is just average its not bad its not great, its hardly amazing gameplay like you think it is, PoE, Lost Ark, and other aRPGs have much better gameplay so yes many games have far surpassed D2s so called pinnacle gameplay.

    Its impossible to claim anything is the pinnacle of anything, there is always something better that comes along eventually, for a short while something may be the best but it gets old and passes the torch.
    You only say that because of the benefit of hindsight and 20 fucking years of game evolution.

    Diablo 2 set the standard to which every single ARPG after it has followed. That is what's called the pinnacle of design. It created the mold from which the rest followed.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Pinnacle means the best, if barely anyone plays it then its not the best is it, so its not the pinnacle of aRPG, you cant claim something is the pinnacle when there is nothing to back it up, D3 sold over 12 million copies you could say currently its the pinnacle of the aRPG genre, or PoE could be the pinnacle of aRPG with its active playerbase that far exceeds D2 even in its prime.

    Player numbers do count in determining if something is the best at something or not.
    Of course they count.


    Now easy question then, would you call PoE the best ARPG ever made? Because I wouldn't. It's a great ARPG, and it's the most widely played ARPG, but I would hardly consider it the best ARPG because it's design is really hap-hazard and overly complicated, and highly dependent on constant updates. In my opinion, it is not the best because its execution is lacking. Diablo 3 is in a similar category, despite it being popular it is not very well executed, and requires the Seasons updates and constant GR pushing to keep it alive. It's not well executed and its design would not last without constant support.

    Diablo 2 is a pinnacle of ARPGs because its design is absolutely solid. It is the best ARPG because its design and execution are way better than Path of Exile or Diablo 3, which requires constant updating in order to stay relevant.

    Same reason I'd say Citizen Kane is the pinnacle of movies while End Game and all the Marvel movies can sell gangbusters AND be very high quality and entertaining movies; it doesn't make the Marvel movies a pinnacle of movies in general. Yet if we're talking an alternative standard, like the best 'cinematic universe', then Marvel could absolutely be called the Pinnacle of Cinematic Universes.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-21 at 11:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •