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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by hydrium View Post
    You only say that because of the benefit of hindsight and 20 fucking years of game evolution.

    Diablo 2 set the standard to which every single ARPG after it has followed. That is what's called the pinnacle of design. It created the mold from which the rest followed.
    D3 is vastly different and superior to D2s gameplay design, D2 just copied and slightly improved from D1 so the design is not even from D2, it didnt create a mold for anything as there were a few aRPGs before the first diablo even released so its just a copy of a copy.

    D2 is a decent game but its far from being a pinnacle of anything, its gameplay alone is just acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Of course they count.


    Now easy question then, would you call PoE the best ARPG ever made? Because I wouldn't. It's a great ARPG, and it's the most widely played ARPG, but I would hardly consider it the best ARPG because it's design is really hap-hazard and overly complicated, and highly dependent on constant updates. In my opinion, it is not the best because its execution is lacking. Diablo 3 is in a similar category, despite it being popular it is not very well executed, and requires the Seasons updates and constant GR pushing to keep it alive. It's not well executed and its design would not last without constant support.

    Diablo 2 is a pinnacle of ARPGs because its design is absolutely solid. It is the best ARPG because its design and execution are way better than Path of Exile or Diablo 3, which requires constant updating in order to stay relevant.
    Only the cultist fans would claim D2 was the pinnacle of anything, the truth is the game is just average as a game and its gameplay systems were just copied and modified from previous aRPGs.

    The best aRPG is the one with the most active playerbase which is probably lost ark currently.

    Simple fact is D3, PoE, Lost Ark, Grim Dawn and other aRPGs are far superior in actual gameplay, so claiming D2 is the pinnacle of anything is just lying to yourself.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-21 at 11:32 PM.
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  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2 is a decent game but its far from being a pinnacle of anything, its gameplay alone is just acceptable.
    Then you probably haven't actually played Diablo 2 correctly :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then you probably haven't actually played Diablo 2 correctly :P
    I played the game many many years ago so i have played it correctly, the gameplay it offers is just not interesting enough for it to last much more than one full playthrough of the story on all difficulties for the remaster, the potion system alone in the game is very tedious.
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  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D3 is vastly different and superior to D2s gameplay design
    In terms of combat, control and minute-to-minute gameplay (action), yes. But as a game overall? No.

    Loot and gearing is a big part of that conversation, and that's where D3 falls flat. Your progression is completely based on getting the higher-stat version of whatever set/legendary gear you already obtained. Your skills amount to nothing if you are not using the right sets/legendaries to boost the bonus, meaning your progress is completely tied to your gear rather than to your character choice or build. If you swap out a piece of your set gear and break the bonus? You completely cease to function. That is not good game design, that is not compelling character customization. The core design of your class should come from your class, while gear simply accents on the power of your character, not drive it completely. That is one of the things they're fixing with Diablo 4 and having power scaled back from gear while focusing more on your skills directly. Hopefully they continue with it, because the current D3 design is so build-centric that you're literally tied to cookie cutter builds rather than have a flexible choice of playing however you wish to.

    Even if Diablo 2 has certain builds that you should stick to to perform effectively, there are still builds that are fun and viable at the end game, because the end game is simply a matter of effective grinding and RNG. You could choose to stack damage and kill fast, or you could stack Magic Find with a slower-kill build to guarantee better drops, or anything in between. That is choice-driven gameplay. For D3, it's completely RNG and grinding tons of legendaries while obtaining materials to reroll a red-outline version of the gear you already have, or reroll an item into it. The lack of flexible design hurts replayability, and it highly affects the replayability. The minute-to-minute gameplay is more action oriented and fun, but the nature of the endless-dungeon grind and having no real alternative gets tedious very quickly. Diablo 2 has multiple avenues of obtaining BIS gear, including a thriving Trading scene, which Diablo 3 omits completely. In D3, if you're missing out on a Primal Ancient weapon, your DPS will be capped at a certain point, and that completely statistically limits the level of GR that you can do. Your buddy who lucked out with a Primal Ancient weapon will easily be 10+ GR levels above you with the exact same build and gear. There is no disparity like this in D2, since the content progress doesn't actually get *harder* in order for you to obtain better items; you can simply put on some shitty blue +Magic Find gear and still be considered useful in the group or in solo. That's absolutely a viable build and playstyle.

    As a full game, D2 is far superior to that of D3 in how it executes its design. It's a far better ARPG. It doesn't rely on flashy mechanics and endless grind to sustain its end-game, because even if you're a noob who only runs hell at your own pace or you're a speedrunner who blazes through, you have the same chances of getting real good end-game loot, and it's a much more flexible play-at-your-own-pace system. The amount of combinations you can get with gearing in D2 is near-infinite, and a well rolled Rare item or Crafted item can often rival or outperform Legendaries and Runewords. No two playthroughs of Diablo 2 are ever the same, even if you play the same build every time. Diablo 3 is literally capped by absolute statistics and your progress is based on getting better rerolls of the exact same gear you're already using. Diablo 3's gameplay is the same every time you play the same character, same build, because you end up reaching the same endpoint and hitting the same level caps until you obtain the right combination of gear and find the right Primal Ancient weapon in order to progress further. So in terms of replayability, D2 is far more diverse and open and the RNG keeps the game feeling fresh, while D3 is literally made to be played until you hit a wall and the RNG will just make you bored.

    Only the cultist fans would claim D2 was the pinnacle of anything
    You realize you are arguing this in the temple of Diablo fandom right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    I played the game many many years ago so i have played it correctly, the gameplay it offers is just not interesting enough for it to last much more than one full playthrough of the story on all difficulties for the remaster, the potion system alone in the game is very tedious.
    So you've confirmed my suspicions. You haven't actually played it correctly at all if you were relying on potions.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-22 at 02:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #265
    D2 (when I reference D2, I mean D2:LOD) is the pinnacle of the ARPG genre. IS. There is nothing that has surpassed it. Nothing. PoE had the basics, but once you play the game and learn about the game, you know why it deviates from that path. PoE is good, but it can never replace the perfection that is D2.

    PoE has mechanics that were put in to counter player power. Getting one-shot by effects that you can't see or that come from outside the screen, is implemented to keep players in check. D2 never had to do that, because the systems all interact perfectly with each other. Everything was balanced. Even though D2 is a power fantasy, much like PoE is, it never required unfair systems to cull player power. Even though the player was essentially stronger than any mob, any character could be killed by any mob in the game, if the situation was disadvantageous. A situation the player put himself in, willingly, knowingly. In PoE, the player is placed in a situation beyond his control and the only thing you do is cross your fingers and hope for the best. It's the core flaw of PoE that is nested into game mechanics, that make it an imperfect game.

    D3 can't even come close to the perfection of D2. Instead of following the D2 model, with various builds for various regions, diverse viability through skills, the only way to keep the game interesting, was through set bonusses and endless dungeon. Without endless, D3 would have died in a few years. And Endless, is the exact opposite of power fantasy. Endless is a crutch to compensate for the lack of interacting systems.

    Diablo 2: LOD is perfect. Oh sure, stash size, inventory size, the fact that charms don't have their own inventory space, that's all legit criticism, but all game systems interact with each other perfectly. Difficulty is incredibly well adjusted and is purely based on player action, rather than inevitability. It scales with you for a time, until you outscale it, but even when you become the hypothetical god, you can still be cornered, surprised, or simply be too careless and die. D2 may not have been perfect at launch and some abilities could still use tweaks to make even more builds viable, but patch 1.10, the addition of synergies and (patch?) the addition of runewords made the game absolutely legendary to play. It added strong options to farm for, without instant gratification, without endless dungeon to compensate for a lack of progression.

    PoE is a good attempt at stealing that crown, but its economy is a complex obtuse mess and hyper-punishing gameplay nullifies its extensive skill tree, resulting in the issues D2 originally had, before LOD, in which only very few strict builds are end-game ready.

    D3 isn't even in the same ballpark. It's a consolized "my first ARPG for dummies", has overall less choice for the player, less diversity, both in options and in gameplay and didn't even manage to replicate the atmosphere of its predecessor.

    Edit:
    That's also the reason why I fear for any modern changes or even additions to D2, because people simply aren't capable of replicating that energy.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2021-09-22 at 11:10 AM.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    You are obviously just clueless, D3 is a far superior game compared to D2 alone, better combat systems, better game systems, better enhancement systems, better stat system since it was pointless in D2 anyway since you always done the same thing.

    I have played D2 in its day and compared to other games available now it is not even close to being the pinnacle of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    D2 (when I reference D2, I mean D2:LOD) is the pinnacle of the ARPG genre. IS. There is nothing that has surpassed it. Nothing. PoE had the basics, but once you play the game and learn about the game, you know why it deviates from that path. PoE is good, but it can never replace the perfection that is D2.
    Its a simple fact many games such as PoE has far surpassed D2 as a game, only D2 cultists would think its better than anything available currently, even the remaster is just a gimmick because the graphics alone in D2 will stop many from even trying the game, the gameplay will make many get bored very fast and its back to just the D2 cultists playing the game.

    Its ok to think the game is good, but to say its the pinnacle of a genre is just stupid, nothing can be the pinnacle of anything because something better always comes along.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-22 at 04:01 PM.
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  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You are obviously just clueless, D3 is a far superior game compared to D2 alone, better combat systems, better game systems, better enhancement systems, better stat system since it was pointless in D2 anyway since you always done the same thing.

    I have played D2 in its day and compared to other games available now it is not even close to being the pinnacle of anything.



    Its a simple fact many games such as PoE has far surpassed D2 as a game, only D2 cultists would think its better than anything available currently, even the remaster is just a gimmick because the graphics alone in D2 will stop many from even trying the game, the gameplay will make many get bored very fast and its back to just the D2 cultists playing the game.

    Its ok to think the game is good, but to say its the pinnacle of a genre is just stupid, nothing can be the pinnacle of anything because something better always comes along.
    It's fair to have that opinion, but you are wrong. So far you have been unable to name anything that is a better game mechanic that elevates the genre within either poe or D3. The only argument you seem to have is graphics, but those have nothing to do with game play. And it's clear you never actually played d2 beyond the first difficulty.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    It's fair to have that opinion, but you are wrong. So far you have been unable to name anything that is a better game mechanic that elevates the genre within either poe or D3. The only argument you seem to have is graphics, but those have nothing to do with game play. And it's clear you never actually played d2 beyond the first difficulty.
    D2 terrible potion system, pointless stat system where you dont have a choice anyway, very limited amount of builds that are actually good, only access to 2 abilities, boring basic combat, bad skill system, very limited content.

    PoE is far superior, better content, better gameplay, vast variety of builds, crafting system, skill system, vast amounts of activities to work through, its all just nostalgia, you think D2 is better when its just an average game at best compared to current aRPG titles, you will never win this argument, because its a simple fact aRPGs have evolved into better games than D2 ever could be.

    Dont just claim D2 is the pinnacle of aRPG when you are 100% wrong, it was good in its time, its no longer that time so move on.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-22 at 04:39 PM.
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  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    I hope the remaster is successful and they add content/changes.

    The game desperately needs it. People seem to forget you can only kill one or two bosses on Hell because of immunities and no one is getting an infinity polearm without dupes like back in the day.
    why would they? this is a remaster...the game is done as it is. If you people want new game content you will have to wait for diablo 4. Because thats what they want you to play. Obviously.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2 terrible potion system, pointless stat system where you dont have a choice anyway, very limited amount of builds that are actually good, only access to 2 abilities, boring basic combat, bad skill system, very limited content.
    Literally none of those are true.

    - Potions are fail saves. You will use them more early on and much less in the end.
    - There is no basic combat.
    - Stat system is actually not pointless, it's to deliberately force you to make a choice between survival and gear. You can only equip heavier armor and thus be more durable, if you sacrifice stats elsewhere. Stat points are not the end all be all, but they do actually matter a lot. My soon to be Thundergods Vigor + Stormshield Sorceress will be testimony to that.
    - You have access to 12+1 abilities, as long as you put the points in. And I believe the QoL added more keybinds.
    - The skill system is still unchallenged in terms of greatness. Synergies gave it the kick it needed. There hasn't been a better skill system since. Some synergies could be improved to allow even more builds.
    - D2 has much more content than D3 and PoE, or if you want to mince words, PoE might have about as much content as D2.

    And clearly the fact that you reference basic combat and potions, just means you've most likely not even set foot in Act 2 normal. You simply haven't even realized that you won't be using any basic combat from about A2.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2021-09-22 at 04:51 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2 terrible potion system, pointless stat system where you dont have a choice anyway, very limited amount of builds that are actually good, only access to 2 abilities, boring basic combat, bad skill system, very limited content.
    D3 also has a pointless stat system, potions system that is arbitrary, and limited content. The only thing going for it is the moment-to-moment gameplay, and that's completely marred by the fact that you're absolutely stuck to the build you've chosen once you go down the route of gearing the character. There's zero flexibility to take up any other build without having to completely regear and find the exact items that complement the set, since all of your power comes directly from gear.

    D2 is way more flexible in gameplay, and you're not stuck to any one style of play. If you were playing a Blizzsorc and decide to branch out to Lightning because you found a really good lightning item, then you can absolutely make the jump without swapping out all your gear. Just reset the skill tree and jump right in.

    PoE is far superior, better content, better gameplay, vast variety of builds, crafting system, skill system, vast amounts of activities to work through
    Sure, it does. And certain people can consider it a pinnacle of ARPGs too, since the definition is validly applicable to wide-spread regard, and PoE is definitely up there. Diablo 3 not as much. It's more than just an individual's regard of what is 'best of the best', it's also a widespread recognition, and I would say PoE is one of those games. However PoE is much more of an action-oriented lootfest that has foregone a lot of its ARPG roots, and even the devs acknowledge this as they're addressing many of those issues in PoE2 and trying to bring back more of the pace and atmosphere of the ARPG genre. It's almost completely absent of any tangible Role Playing.

    I would say that PoE can be seen as a better game, but as a pinnacle ARPG it is not. It doesn't execute well on all the qualities that define an ARPG genre, it simply has a very complex progression system with a lot of depth, and a fast paced action combat system. The rest is almost negligeable in terms of atmosphere and roleplay.

    As I said, simply being more entertaining and flashy and popular doesn't make it a pinnacle product of its kind. Often the best movies are ones that don't make as much money as the typical Hollywood Blockbuster, unless you're the type who thinks the Transformer movies are better than Citizen Kane because it has sequels and more people have watched it.

    Dont just claim D2 is the pinnacle of aRPG when you are 100% wrong, it was good in its time, its no longer that time so move on.
    Except it's not wrong when it is the pinnacle of ARPGs.

    As others have said, those other games haven't actually done things better than D2. They simply did them differently. When it comes to the scope of Diablo 2's progression systems and replayability, it doesn't rely on artificial means of expanding content in order to retain its replay value, and it doesn't sacrifice its RPG roots to have compelling gameplay. Being older hasn't changed its core design, while modern games are always being designed for modern sensibilities, and that means designing games that appeal to the player who has very little attention span and gets bored real easily. That is why combat is flashier, much more complex and has much more depth even though it generally has a lot less substance to it. Design of D2 is simple and elegant, even if it technically come off as old and clunky. Yes, you don't have a dozen buttons to press - but that's not a bad thing because you aren't getting Carpal Tunnel from a 2-hour gaming session, whereas you'd wear out your arm doing the same button rotations in D3 at a speed-runner pace since GR's are all timed. It's a flexible system where your builds are centered around 1-2 main abilities, and if you feel like you want to change it up, you can and just play a different style with that same character. Or roll a new one and grandfather down the loot and just focus on leveling up, without having to 'template' a particular build and path and gather all the specific socket items that make your intended build viable. Complexity comes at a cost. It's not a better system, it's a different system.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-22 at 05:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Literally none of those are true.

    - Potions are fail saves. You will use them more early on and much less in the end.
    - There is no basic combat.
    - Stat system is actually not pointless, it's to deliberately force you to make a choice between survival and gear. You can only equip heavier armor and thus be more durable, if you sacrifice stats elsewhere. Stat points are not the end all be all, but they do actually matter a lot. My soon to be Thundergods Vigor + Stormshield Sorceress will be testimony to that.
    - You have access to 12+1 abilities, as long as you put the points in. And I believe the QoL added more keybinds.
    - The skill system is still unchallenged in terms of greatness. Synergies gave it the kick it needed. There hasn't been a better skill system since. Some synergies could be improved to allow even more builds.
    - D2 has much more content than D3 and PoE, or if you want to mince words, PoE might have about as much content as D2.
    They are all true, the potion system is bad, the class skill system is not good, the stat system is pointless because there is only 1 ideal way to spend the points, you can only use 2 abilities at a time, the stash system is way too limited but they have made it slightly better in the remaster, and it lacks content all other aRPGs have.

    Its very obvious at this point you would blatently lie to try and prove your point, the story alone in PoE has more content than the whole of D2, content is having options, D2 has very limited options in what to do, farming the same boss over and over in D2 is not considered content. D3 has more content than D2 as it has everything D2 had and added rifting into the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    You are wrong plain and simple, D2 is just a normal game it was never the pinnacle of aRPG design.

    You can think it is, but that does not actually make it true, so you have really low standards on aRPG design if you think D2 is the pinnacle of that design.

    You are not stuck into one type of gameplay in D3 or PoE as there is tons of builds you can use, D2 had very limited storage space so you would have to have multiple chars to use different specs otherwise you would have no space for anything, so you would have 2 builds at most to properly use.

    You have already lost when you stated D2 was the pinnacle of aRPG, no game is ever the pinnacle of anything, it might be the best for a short while but something always surpases it, you are just a D2 die hard fan who doesnt realise the game is just average at best.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-22 at 05:10 PM.
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  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    They are all true, the potion system is bad, the class skill system is not good, the stat system is pointless because there is only 1 ideal way to spend the points, you can only use 2 abilities at a time, the stash system is way too limited but they have made it slightly better in the remaster, and it lacks content all other aRPGs have.

    Its very obvious at this point you would blatently lie to try and prove your point, the story alone in PoE has more content than the whole of D2, content is having options, D2 has very limited options in what to do, farming the same boss over and over in D2 is not considered content. D3 has more content than D2 as it has everything D2 had and added rifting into the game.
    Even if I would go deep and admit that potion system is annoying on your first character (and if you properly do it, only your first character) and I ignore your vision of the skill tree, because that's personal preference, then I would still call you a liar, because no, you can't just use two skills at a time. You just need to select a skill before you use it. Stash, inventory, all those, have nothing to do with the core mechanics, besides forcing you to make choices, which is actually good design.

    And just so we're on the same level. You are entirely entitled to your opinion. I, we, just think that no game has managed to dethrone D2. That's all. You won't convince us otherwise, so it basically becomes a circle-jerk.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2021-09-22 at 05:20 PM.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Even if I would go deep and admit that potion system is annoying on your first character (and if you properly do it, only your first character) and I ignore your vision of the skill tree, because that's personal preference, then I would still call you a liar, because no, you can't just use two skills at a time. You just need to select a skill before you use it. Stash, inventory, all those, have nothing to do with the core mechanics, besides forcing you to make choices.
    The so called pinnacle of aRPG design where you would have to constantly click to restock potions, change skills, and have no space to store your items, it actually removes most of the choice a game would give a player, stash/inv is very important in an aRPG because the whole game is based around obtaining items, thats the whole point in an aRPG.

    Just admit that D2 is not the pinnacle of aRPG, there are far too many flaws in the game itself for it to be considered even a great game.

    Pinnacle would mean you think D2 is currently still the best aRPG available, when fact alone proves thats not the case, if the gameplay was that good it would have 10s of thousands of players even now, PoE is 8 years old and has more players now than ever before.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-22 at 05:26 PM.
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  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The so called pinnacle of aRPG design where you would have to constantly click to [..]change skills,
    But you don't...

    And pinnacle means that all ARPG's are still looking at D2 as their comparison. That is what pinnacle means. Which will be for at least another 10 years, now that the remaster is coming
    Last edited by Vespian; 2021-09-22 at 05:31 PM.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You are wrong plain and simple, D2 is just a normal game it was never the pinnacle of aRPG design.

    You can think it is, but that does not actually make it true, so you have really low standards on aRPG design if you think D2 is the pinnacle of that design.

    You are not stuck into one type of gameplay in D3 or PoE as there is tons of builds you can use, D2 had very limited storage space so you would have to have multiple chars to use different specs otherwise you would have no space for anything, so you would have 2 builds at most to properly use.
    But you're comparing to a game that you've never gone deep into exploring. You played it back in the day, probably as a noob kid who didn't really know how to play games correctly (since you keep mentioning Potions as being a problem), then you're applying years of learned experience from other games to D3 and PoE, and you've never had any interest in going back to apply that same level of experience and knowledge to digging deep into D2. So all you're comparing is your surface-level knowledge of D2.

    You probably don't even know what a Torch is. How could you ever understand the depth of D2 if you never explored it? It sounds like you're one of those types who simply get too bored with game mechanics to jump into the depth of the game, like a modern RTS player unable to grasp the depth of Starcraft 2 because you don't have Unlimited Unit Selection. Again, I'll say that Starcraft 2 is a very good modern RTS, and perhaps the most popular one played. But if we're talking about a pinnacle of RTS, then that still goes to the original Starcraft+Broodwar.

    You have already lost when you stated D2 was the pinnacle of aRPG, no game is ever the pinnacle of anything, it might be the best for a short while but something always surpases it, you are just a D2 die hard fan who doesnt realise the game is just average at best.
    Then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, like saying there's no such thing as a President because others will take up that title and role in the future so that position doesn't exist. Well, sure, if you believe that you can, and I'm just going to continue to say 'yes, a President is a real thing and X person is the current President' rather than submit to any twisted headcanon that it's a completely fictional definition.

    Pinnacle means top. So we're just talking about what the game at the top is. And if you don't believe anything can be topped or ever stay at the top, it doesn't mean nothing is ever on the top; it means many things were at the top and the definition can be shifting or ever-changing; that's all. When we look at the ARPG genre as a whole, we have to take in more than just the combat systems and stat systems. Have you ever been invested in POE's lore or storyline as much as Diablo? Its music? It's atmosphere? If not, then it's not a better game overall. We have to look at the entire package, because that's what defines the genre, and not just better Combat mechanics.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-22 at 05:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, like saying there's no such thing as a President because others will take up that title and role in the future so that position doesn't exist. Well, sure, if you believe that you can, and I'm just going to continue to say 'yes, a President is a real thing and X person is the current President' rather than submit to any twisted headcanon.
    Pinnacle means the best simple as that, is D2 the best of its genre and the answer to that is 100% no, the game is flawed and has terrible gameplay systems in it so to even mention it as the pinnacle of aRPG is ridiculus, it was good in its time nothing else, even the remaster it will quickly fall back into a place where barely anyone plays it.

    You are the one claiming something to be the best of its genre, so obviously someone will point out that you are wrong. Nowhere does it state anywhere that D2 is considered the best in it genre, its just your own opinion.
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  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Pinnacle means the best simple as that, is D2 the best of its genre and the answer to that is 100% no, the game is flawed and has terrible gameplay systems in it so to even mention it as the pinnacle of aRPG is ridiculus, it was good in its time nothing else, even the remaster it will quickly fall back into a place where barely anyone plays it.
    As I said, all gaming companies making ARPG's use D2 as their reference. There is no such thing as D2 not being the pinnacle of the ARPG genre.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Pinnacle means the best simple as that, is D2 the best of its genre and the answer to that is 100% no, the game is flawed and has terrible gameplay systems in it so to even mention it as the pinnacle of aRPG is ridiculus, it was good in its time nothing else, even the remaster it will quickly fall back into a place where barely anyone plays it.

    You are the one claiming something to be the best of its genre, so obviously someone will point out that you are wrong. Nowhere does it state anywhere that D2 is considered the best in it genre, its just your own opinion.
    But you admit yourself that pinnacle doesn't exist. You're admitting the best doesn't exist as a definition at all. So you're kind of making no point at all by explaning a definition of pinnacle, and in the same breath saying it doesn't matter.

    Best does not mean Perfect or Flawless. Best is a relative term meaning the one that is better than the (comparable) rest. And when it comes to overall design as an ARPG? Diablo 2 is better than the rest as a full package. It is not flawless or perfect, but as a full package ARPG it is much better than PoE and D3 in terms of capturing and literally DEFINING the ARPG genre.

    And when anyone is talking about Pinnacles and Best as relative terms? Fuck yes it's opinion, that's exactly what it is. A General Concensus is even a widely-acknowledged opinion. That's how we're terming things, and yes they do exist. That you choose to live ignorant of the ARPG community at large and what opinions there are on these games doesn't mean "the best of the best' does not exist.

    Original Star Wars Trilogy is the best trilogy. This isn't some *factual* statement that the original trilogy is completely perfect and flawless. It's a statement that the original trilogy is *better* than the prequels or sequels, and stated as a matter of opinion; one that is collectively agreed upon amongst most fans. And it's not a statement that applies universally to everyone, since someone can have a different opinion; but it doesn't change the consensus as a whole. The Original Trilogy is widely regarded by the audience as being the best Star Wars trilogy, and that's by defined by popular opinion.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/co...the_best_arpg/

    Here's a thread on someone who wishes to define PoE as the best ARPG. There are many valid points, and in the comments, also many valid criticisms. Whether someone defines it as being the pinnacle ARPG is literally based on opinion. So when you come here saying D2 can't be a pinnacle ARPG because it has flaws, I'm here literally telling you that's not how that word is used or defined. It's not based on flawlessness, it's based on collective opinions and wide-spread regard.

    Just like if someone were to talk about who the best Baseball player is, there can be an absolute discussion on the various players that people think are the Best of the Best. There does not have to be any singular unified answer, since it is opinion, but it doesn't mean 'Pinnacle does not exist' either. So you can absolutely point out flaws in Diablo 2, absolutely disagree that Diablo 2 is the best ARPG because it has shitty combat system, absolutely criticize the game for having terrible Potions system. None of that actually prevents or counters the general concensus of Diablo 2 being the best ARPG on the market. That you are not aware of the general concensus among ARPG fans does not mean it does not exist. It just means you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-22 at 06:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  20. #280
    Does D2R have abilities and talents? Or is it just right and left mousbutton?

    I played D3 free version and kinda liked the game play, but hated the graphics; everything looked so happy-toony. D2R seems to nail the horror aspect but I'm wondering about the game play.
    success comes in the form of technical solutions to problems, not appeals to our emotional side

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