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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Does D2R have abilities and talents? Or is it just right and left mousbutton?

    I played D3 free version and kinda liked the game play, but hated the graphics; everything looked so happy-toony. D2R seems to nail the horror aspect but I'm wondering about the game play.
    Only the mousebuttons, which can be changed with F-keys. Alternatively, with a controller, you can use multiple buttons.

    Just one of hundred QoL-change that makes you wonder why they haven't been implemented.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Only the mousebuttons, which can be changed with F-keys. Alternatively, with a controller, you can use multiple buttons.

    Just one of hundred QoL-change that makes you wonder why they haven't been implemented.
    Controller? Can you move around with the thumbsticks? Or do you use the stick as an arrow to point and click?
    success comes in the form of technical solutions to problems, not appeals to our emotional side

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    As I said, all gaming companies making ARPG's use D2 as their reference. There is no such thing as D2 not being the pinnacle of the ARPG genre.
    They dont use D2 as a reference you do realise D2 just copied previous games, D2 is just an evolution of D1 and used gameplay features from previous games. Diablo didnt create the genre on loot based RPG games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    Pinnacle means being the most successful, the game on the highest peak, Diablo 2 is not that game no matter how you try and spin things, every other aRPG available currently beats diablo 2s ass every day of the week in just being a better game.

    Currently as it stands, either PoE or lost ark are probably the best games of a similar style to diablo, D2 is for a 100% fact not the pinnacle of anything, the meaning of pinnicle itself has no place in games, every single game in existance can be improved upon, no game will ever be the best forever.

    I have played the game multiple times throughout and the gameplay is terribly average, i have spent hundreds of hours in PoE and over a thousand of hours in D3, and D2 gameplay is just plain bad compared to a modern game.

    You will never win this argument, D2 is just not the best game of its genre, and only the die hard D2 cultists would even think it was remotely even close to being the best.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-23 at 12:53 AM.
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  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You will never win this argument, D2 is just not the best game of its genre, and only the die hard D2 cultists would even think it was remotely even close to being the best.
    I'll give you that PoE is highly popular and may also be considered the pinnacle, consider its relevancy and how it's pushed the genre.

    But in terms of being the best ARPG ever made? PoE is not perfect either, and not better than D2 when it comes to actually being an ARPG.

    PoE is a great game, but it is not really the best of the best ARPG out there. It has great gameplay and a lot of depth, but very little atmosphere, and its replayability is tied to constant additions of content and updates. It hinges on it, without which it'd likely be as mediocre as Diablo 3 is. What PoE has in its favour is the full support of GGG continuing its content and progress.

    You can go look yourself. Find any comments on 3rd party ARPGs and you'll still find people commenting that D2 is better, and how PoE is great but still flawed and middling in comparison. That you personally don't like D2 is what you're projecting in the argument, while you haven't done a lick of research into what the ARPG community says about the games.

    And the community is the one that defines the pinnacle, the best of the best. As I explained, it's not just a case of you not liking it therefore it can not be the best. I'm not the one who defines D2 being the pinnacle ARPG, it's not even my favourite ARPG considering I'm much more of a Monster Hunter fan than I am of Diablo series.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #285
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    No way there's any kind of expansion for Diablo 2. I'd imagine largely because, as like with all the remasters, they are not going to hold onto their playerbase for long. I also don't think Blizzard wants Diablo 2 to really be competing with Diablo 4, although that game appears to still be far into the future.

    Some balance patches or QoL changes is the best you can hope for. And in my opinion, Diablo 2 could use some patches. There are some annoyances I've always had with the game. Like how multiplayer is he-who-grabs-the-loot-the-fastest, which is not great (I like how Diablo 3 does it). It's bullshit, really. Or Immune monsters, which can be removed through some very specific items, or skills that only like 2 classes have. Now that's a design choice I just can't get behind.
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  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'll give you that PoE is highly popular and may also be considered the pinnacle, consider its relevancy and how it's pushed the genre.

    But in terms of being the best ARPG ever made? PoE is not perfect either, and not better than D2 when it comes to actually being an ARPG.

    PoE is a great game, but it is not really the best of the best ARPG out there. It has great gameplay and a lot of depth, but very little atmosphere, and its replayability is tied to constant additions of content and updates. It hinges on it, without which it'd likely be as mediocre as Diablo 3 is. What PoE has in its favour is the full support of GGG continuing its content and progress.

    You can go look yourself. Find any comments on 3rd party ARPGs and you'll still find people commenting that D2 is better, and how PoE is great but still flawed and middling in comparison. That you personally don't like D2 is what you're projecting in the argument, while you haven't done a lick of research into what the ARPG community says about the games.

    And the community is the one that defines the pinnacle, the best of the best. As I explained, it's not just a case of you not liking it therefore it can not be the best. I'm not the one who defines D2 being the pinnacle ARPG, it's not even my favourite ARPG considering I'm much more of a Monster Hunter fan than I am of Diablo series.
    You lost the argument the moment you said it was the pinnacle of the genre, its not for you or the community to decide if a game is the best or not.

    Compared to current games D2 is very average, PoE blows it out of the water on every aspect, D2 has very little playablitily especially compared to PoE which has tons of gameplay options, even vanilla versions of D3 and PoE are just better than D2 in its prime.

    i have not once claimed any game was perfect, im just stating a simple fact that PoE and such are just better games than D2, if D2 was the best game why does barely anyone but hardcore fans even play it, if a games the best of its genre why play PoE.

    D2 is an old game it just cant compete with the new aRPG games available.
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  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You lost the argument the moment you said it was the pinnacle of the genre, its not for you or the community to decide if a game is the best or not.
    I lost the argument the moment you said nothing can be a pinnacle.

    I'm completely aware that I'm arguing with someone who doesn't understand what pinnacle actually means.

    Compared to current games D2 is very average, PoE blows it out of the water on every aspect, D2 has very little playablitily especially compared to PoE which has tons of gameplay options, even vanilla versions of D3 and PoE are just better than D2 in its prime.
    Not mutually exclusive.

    Citizen Kane is the pinnacle of movies, general concensus of it being one of the best movies in history. That there can be movies that have greater scope or better entertainment value or better acting or better music can all be true, and it doesn't take away from Citizen Kane being the pinnacle. All of the above can be true. Other movies can have better financial sales, or be shown to more people in the world, or have more sequels and brand recognition. It doesn't take away from Citizen Kane being the pinnacle.

    What you're looking at are the strengths of PoE and comparing them to D2, but you're not actually looking areas where PoE is lacking and would not be considered a pinnacle either, and you're choosing not to because you intentionally do not believe a pinnacle exists. So you're really just making a non-argument. You're not actually addressing the only factor in defining a pinnacle - how the community regards these games and which one is better designed as an ARPG.

    Again, that's the only definition that matters. General concensus. If you're not willing to regard it, then so be it. Yet I will say again and again, despite your own personal beliefs of one game being better, it's still wide-spread regard that defines D2 as being the pinnacle of ARPGs, and not your personal opinion nor my personal opinion.

    Again, I've told you that I'm more of a Monster Hunter player than Diablo 2. I've probably sunk more hours into D3 than D2 as well, all things considered. It doesn't mean I'm going to intentionally blind myself from the definitions being used here, and how pinnacle is actually defined.

    There are different things that things can be successful at. If we're talking about the most-played ARPG or the most financially successful ARPG, then sure, Diablo 2 isn't either of those. Yet if we're talking about the best ARPG in general, which means design and execution, then D2 is arguably the pinnacle, if not PoE coming in very close depending on who you talk to. These are the top most mentioned ARPGs in any conversation on the genre. And as a whole in the community? Generally people have more regard for the Diablo series than PoE; thus the terminology 'Diablo clones'. You never really hear that being associated to PoE as being the DEFINING ARPG which every other ARPG is compared to; sometimes it is, but Diablo 2 is moreso used as that standard.

    If your argument is simply 'Pinnacle does not exist' then that's just conjecture. You're choosing not to acknowledge the topic. Imagine me saying 'Doesn't matter what you think about PoE or D3 being better, ARPGs are dead, you lost the argument'. It's nonsense. Ridiculous, right?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-23 at 03:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #288
    I don’t have faith in the Diablo and Warcraft franchise since Activision Blizzard is still working on their lawsuits and PR. I hope it works well for the victims and the company gets reformed.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    They dont use D2 as a reference you do realise D2 just copied previous games, D2 is just an evolution of D1 and used gameplay features from previous games. Diablo didnt create the genre on loot based RPG games.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_Exile
    Gameplay
    The player controls a single character from an overhead perspective and explores large outdoor areas and caves or dungeons, battling monsters and fulfilling quests from non-player characters (NPCs) to gain experience points and equipment. The game borrows heavily from the Diablo series, particularly Diablo II.[8]

    Suck it, boi.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    Nothing can be the pinnacle of anything, there is always something better, all you have is an opinion that you are stating as a fact.

    Everything has proven you to be wrong about D2, its a decent game but its not the pinnacle or best at anything.

    You do enjoy massive paragraphs without actually saying anything do you.

    Citizen Kane is also not the pinnacle of anything, it was maybe the best movie of its time and thats it, as time moves on whats best in that time gets replaced with something better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_Exile
    Gameplay
    The player controls a single character from an overhead perspective and explores large outdoor areas and caves or dungeons, battling monsters and fulfilling quests from non-player characters (NPCs) to gain experience points and equipment. The game borrows heavily from the Diablo series, particularly Diablo II.[8]

    Suck it, boi.
    Diablo 2 is a copy of previous games, just like every other game copies each other in some way shape or form, simple fact is PoE is better than D2 and thats a fact. So you need to suck it.

    You are claiming D2 to be the pinnacle of a genre when in fact there are many games that are just far superior to it.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-23 at 04:09 PM.
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  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Nothing can be the pinnacle of anything, there is always something better, all you have is an opinion that you are stating as a fact.
    "Nothing can be the pinnacle of anything" is also an opinion, dudebro.

    It's opinion stated as opinion. Discussions of pinnacles and best-of-the-best are always going to be subjective.

    You're just making a bogus argument that opinions about what is best of the best can't exist. I'm sure you can see how unreasonable that logic is. The reasonable assessment is that best-of-the-best is subjective and everyone can have their own opinion on what is better or what is best. In terms of evaluating Diablo 2 as the pinnacle, it's in context to the widespread regard of ARPGs and how many players in the community value it as being the standard for which all other ARPGs are compared to. PoE can also be that standard. Or D3 if you'd like.

    In context to why I'm particularly arguing in favour of D2? It's purely because your argument was PoE and D3 as definitively 'better' than D2, when I'm explaining that your reasonings don't diminish the value of Diablo 2. People are still regarding it as being the pinnacle, therefore it can be considered one. Even now, if you look deeply enough, most of comparisons of the best aspects of PoE come directly from Diablo 2. It's not a 'best of its time' situation, it's completely relevant today considering PoE is built on similar framework as D2, and frankly has taken many steps to expand on it but have only managed to be different, not exactly better. I'd make the same comparison to various Diablo 2 Mods like Path of Diablo, SigmaXL and Project D2 which expand on D2's gameplay and progression, but none are exactly 'better' than the original; just different.

    And again, I'm not talking about individual value such as between me and you, I'm considering the widespread community regard - the General Consensus. I don't think you've addressed this point at all, which is why I feel like a broken record having to spell it out to you so many times.

    There is no validity to saying 'pinnacles do not exist'. Again, it's the same as if I were to dismiss your entire argument on the basis of 'ARPG's are dead' and list out how small the ARPG community is in general compared to any other popular gaming genre like MOBAs or Battle Royales and whatnot. It's just conjecture.

    Citizen Kane is also not the pinnacle of anything, it was maybe the best movie of its time and thats it, as time moves on whats best in that time gets replaced with something better.
    Then you're contradicting yourself here. How could it be the best of its time if you are arguing that the best does not exist?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-23 at 05:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    Its not an opinion its a fact, if something is the pinnacle of something nothing can be better than it, it can be the pinnacle of its time but it can never always remain that way.

    Diablo 2 was just a stepping stone, all games evolve and get better in time, all games are copies of each other and take good aspects from them and improve on them.

    You are contradicting yourself, you claim something is the pinnacle of its genre but that means its always going to be the best, nothing can remain the best as time always changes that.

    Its pretty simple if something is the pinnacle it means its the best, D2 is not the best of its genre so that means its not the pinnacle of anything.
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  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its not an opinion its a fact, if something is the pinnacle of something nothing can be better than it
    How is the term 'better' evaluated? Is it based on factual evidence?


    No. It's opinion. It's subjective. Therefore the entire basis of a pinnacle being 'the best' is absolutely an opinion.

    The only Fact here is that Pinnacle means Best; otherwise the actual evaluation of what is better or best is absolutely subjective. Pinnacle does not mean *insurmountable*.


    There is no *factual* evidence that Citizen Kane was the best movie of its time; that is purely subjective and based on popular opinion. Someone could easily say Gone with the Wind was the best movie of its time instead. Or, someone could use your argument, and say neither can be the best because it doesn't exist because 'Way Down East' was the best movie of 1920. Again, just opinion.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-23 at 05:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Quick question - how is the term 'better' evaluated? Is it based on factual evidence?
    A games whole point is to be played, if nearly noone plays it that game is not considered the best is it, it fails at a game if all others of the genre have far larger playerbases. Thats how a game is evaluated by the amount of active playerbase it actually has.

    D2 is old, it has old gameplay systems and not many players find that enjoyable because its an old game, also it does not get updates with new content, its no different to a single player game once you complete the story there is no reason to play it.
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  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    A games whole point is to be played, if nearly noone plays it that game is not considered the best is it, it fails at a game if all others of the genre have far larger playerbases. Thats how a game is evaluated by the amount of active playerbase it actually has.

    D2 is old, it has old gameplay systems and not many players find that enjoyable because its an old game, also it does not get updates with new content, its no different to a single player game once you complete the story there is no reason to play it.
    But no one is talking about the *most played* game when we talk about best ARPG.

    Discussion of Best Game is contextualized by Design and Execution. If you look in a magazine and look up what is the Best Game of the Year, then it's not just rated based on most active players or financial success or best combat mechanics alone. It's an evaluation of the design and intent as a whole. That is why even a Puzzle Game can be best game of the year.

    If we're talking about ARPG designs as a whole, then we have to look at what defines the ARPG genre. And that's what I feel is missing from your own interpretation of a 'better game', because you're not looking at ARPGs, you're just looking purely at combat and progression.

    ARPGs are more than just flash combat and action.


    And being old means nothing. Again, Citizen Kane is absolutely touted as the pinnacle of movies, and still is held in that regard now. That you don't agree or don't believe it to be true is just your opinion; it doesn't mean Citizen Kane hasn't been put in that regard. There's nothing to dispute as 'Wrong' because it's ultimately a subjective evaluation.


    Again, look at my argument here. Not once have I said 'You're WRONG!'. Why? Because I regard your argument is an opinion, even though you don't acknowledge that it is. You're trying to push the pinnacle angle as being fact, but it's simply not. No definition of a pinnacle of entertainment is insurmountable or undefinable because there will always be better options. That's just not how pinnacles or best-of-the-best are defined. It's the opposite, where Best-of-the-best is constantly being evaluated, and best-of-all-time is also an evaluation which is purely based on subjective recognition. Any argument to say it doesn't exist or that it's invalid is simply conjecture. It's not wrong, but it's based on an incomplete assessment of the definition.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-23 at 05:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    You claimed D2 is the pinnacle of the genre, it is in fact not, pinnacle simply means it cant be improved upon, games are all about being improved upon, nothing in the D2 design is the best, it was just another stepping stone to find what works in that type of game.
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  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You claimed D2 is the pinnacle of the genre, it is in fact not, pinnacle simply means it cant be improved upon
    Bullshit.

    Pinnacle doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. If that's what you were using to define a pinnacle of entertainment, then your definition is flat out wrong.

    D2 being a pinnacle means it is the best of its type. Just as Citizen Kane being a pinnacle is the best of its type. There's absolutely no definition stating being a pinnacle means it can't be improved upon, it simply means the best of the best. And again, this is a collectively subjective definition since 'best' is absolutely subjective, and not based on fact. Pinnacle does not only apply to static factual things like Mountains. There is a much broader definition that indeed applies to non-factual things.

    Such as if you got a job you were very proud of, that could be the pinnacle of your career. That doesn't mean the pinnacle can't change or is static, it's absolutely relative to your success in life. It means no other job that you've had comparatively is as good as that one point, not that any future point can't surpass it. Find a better job that you considered the height of your achievements, and the pinnacle changes. That's how it's defined.


    When applied to design, pinnacle can also be used to define the most critical achievements in the genre. So Diablo 2 is considered a pinnacle for having the most innovative designs, whereas games like D3 and PoE are much more derivative designs which use what D2 has outlined, and taken it farther or in a different direction, but may not have innovated as much on their own terms. And as such, Starcraft 1 is a pinnacle of design in that respect, for being a critical achievement in RTS game design and balance, even if it may be lacking features such as unlimited unit selection, auto-queues and more. The critical success is relative in terms of achieving global recognition and redefining the RTS genre for all RTS that have come after it, making it a standard of achievement.

    There are multiple ways to define the variable of 'success'. So if you were to say D2 isn't the most popular/played or financially successful game, that is absolutely valid and correct. But it doesn't take away from its critical achievements in the genre, and being considered a pinnacle of ARPG design. Games like PoE and D3 have not actually evolved the formula, it's only progressed the same formula forward and bases their success directly on the design put forth by Diablo 2.

    It's like addressing the Star Wars Sequel trilogies having made WAY MORE MONEY and being seen by millions more people around the world than the original trilogy, but they are not pinnacles because they didn't do anything groundbreaking or new to the Star Wars or Science Fantasy genre. The original trilogy would be considered the pinnacle because it was groundbreaking, and it still hold the test of time as being the one that defines that genre and the movies for which all others happen to be compared to.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-23 at 06:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    snip
    Do you even understand the meaning of pinnacle, it means something that has reached its peak, meaning you cant get any better, thats why its so stupid to even use it to explain anything especially with games. The definition i use is the oxford dictionary so its you that is wrong about it.

    D2 is not the best of its type and thats just fact, its a decent game yes but not a game many would spend hundreds of hours on let alone thousands like PoE and D3 along with others.

    Your use of pinnacle is just wrong.
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  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You lost the argument the moment you said it was the pinnacle of the genre, its not for you or the community to decide if a game is the best or not.

    Compared to current games D2 is very average, PoE blows it out of the water on every aspect, D2 has very little playablitily especially compared to PoE which has tons of gameplay options, even vanilla versions of D3 and PoE are just better than D2 in its prime.

    i have not once claimed any game was perfect, im just stating a simple fact that PoE and such are just better games than D2, if D2 was the best game why does barely anyone but hardcore fans even play it, if a games the best of its genre why play PoE.

    D2 is an old game it just cant compete with the new aRPG games available.
    See I would HARD DISAGREE, as I find PoE to be complete shit game, the combat was crap, the talent tree/system is convoluted bullshit, the story is non-existent, and the graphics are meh at best. I would only consider it pinnacle if you mean the pinnacle of shit games. The only way I would play that game again would be if they paid me 10,000s of dollars per an hour.
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  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Your use of pinnacle is just wrong.
    I disagree with your opinion and your argument. I think we can leave it at that since we're both going nowhere with this, since neither of us agree on each other's definitions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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