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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Being the best for a while and being the pinnacle of a genre is two completely different things.

    The combat is an evolved form of other aRPGs so you are just insulting D2 gameplay because all hack and slash games play the same at the core, what makes them different is the choices available to the player.

    Story ingames means nothing, diablo is just the standard angel and demon stuff nothing special and the games dont really tell that much of a story to begin with, its just to fill the game out a little more.
    Every great game is the pinnacle of “something” when it releases, it becomes the new “paragon” for a while and then time passes by and something similar but newer and with coolest graphics/ideas/mechanics/gameplay/whatever takes its place.

    First Doom was a pinnacle at that time, today is ridiculous, but when it came out was a pinnacle nonetheless. You can substitute Doom with whatever iconic title of the past.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It wasnt the pinnacle of anything and thats a simple fact
    It's kinda funny how you're trying to state that as fact, yet no one has agreed with you on this point whatsoever.

    So far 4 different people have pointed out what pinnacle means and how it can be applied to anything simply being the best of the best at any given time. So far, no one has agreed with your assessment that a pinnacle can not exist. And I've even pointed out how Oxford dictionary contradicts your own statement, which you just snipped and ignored and continued with the same bogus definition as though repeating it would somehow make it more true.

    I mean, who exactly agrees with your statement here? You can believe it all you want, but frankly whatever definition you are choosing to stand by is only defined by you alone. No one else recognizes your 'facts' as being valid whatsoever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's kinda funny how you're trying to state that as fact, yet no one has agreed with you on this point whatsoever.

    So far 4 different people have pointed out what pinnacle means and how it can be applied to anything simply being the best of the best at any given time. So far, no one has agreed with your assessment that a pinnacle can not exist. And I've even pointed out how Oxford dictionary contradicts your own statement, which you just snipped and ignored and continued with the same bogus definition as though repeating it would somehow make it more true.

    I mean, who exactly agrees with your statement here? You can believe it all you want, but frankly whatever definition you are choosing to stand by is only defined by you alone. No one else recognizes your 'facts' as being valid whatsoever.
    The only ones who would argue against it is hardcore D2 fans claiming D2 is the best game, plus you are the only one claiming pinnacle to mean something else, other than its actual oxford dictionary meaning.

    Pinnacle means something has reached its peak/most successful point when something has reached its peak it means it cant go any further. You need to accept you have lost the argument, D2 is not the pinnacle of anything.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-24 at 09:30 PM.
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  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Pinnacle means something has reached its peak, when something has reached its peak it means it cant go any further. You need to accept you have lost the argument, D2 is not the pinnacle of anything.
    Sure, you can assume that all you want.

    No one agrees, and it will just stay that way. We all agree to disagree with your statement, and that's really all that needs to be said.


    Honestly, it has nothing to do with being hardcore D2 anything. Everyone's pointed out how 'pinnacle' applies to anything else, like movies or the Doom example above. Not quite sure why you think it has anything to do with D2 fans at all, really. We're pointing out how your defintion doesn't make sense, since you even admit you use the Oxford dictionary and it's pretty fucking clear that pinnacles exist, while you've been arguing that pinnacles can't exist at all. Hell, I never even said I agreed with the statement that D2 is the pinnacle ARPG; I've simply been arguing that D2 CAN BE regarded as a pinnacle and that pinnacles can exist, period. Just like if I personally don't believe in a singular benevolent God, I can still point out that religion and faith in God exists, and that religion and faith are tangible concepts that can be discussed and regarded despite any lack of proof that an actual God exists.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-24 at 09:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Well can't the same be said of you? You're denying it only because you're a D2 hater. What's the difference here? You're not exactly proving yourself to be very objective, nor are your definitions regarded by any common standard.

    Again, no one even agrees with your definition of pinnacle, and people aren't even applying that to D2. We're all saying a pinnacle can exist for practically anything, like movies, other games and so forth. I don't see how being a 'hardcore D2' fan has to do with anything. It's clear that you just can't handle the truth and you've dug yourself too deep to backtrack and logically think 'Oh yeah, you know what? Pinnacles can exist after all and new things can become the new peak level of success'. You don't want to admit it, so you have to dig deeper, and as more people point out how flawed your definition is, all you have left is to make excuses and assume that anyone who disagrees with you must be a hardcore white-knight
    Im not a D2 hater, you are trying to prop the game up for some reason when the game is just not that great, i own and have been playing D2R and over the years tried many times to go back and play D2 LoD but its just not that good of a game, i have played tons of aRPG games and put hundreds and thousands of hours into them, D2 only holds a special place for a small select playerbase mostly for nostalgia reasons, not because of how good or bad the game actually is.

    My definition is oxford dictionary, and you are the only one claiming im using it wrong, when in actual fact you are using the definition the wrong way.
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  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    My definition is oxford dictionary, and you are the only one claiming im using it wrong, when in actual fact you are using the definition the wrong way.
    Except it's not.

    Oxford Dictionary defines Pinnacle as any peak achievement. You're arguing that peak achievements do not exist because other games come along and surpass that peak; and rather than acknowledging that the peak achievement can change or be updated, you've made a wide assumption that a peak simply can't exist.

    Yet the Oxford dictionary clearly states what a pinnacle is, and there is no clause to say it's an unachievable state. All of the examples of the word in use implies that it can be updated to reflect a new peak.

    pinnacle of something the most important or successful part of something

    Example - Formula One is the pinnacle of motor racing.

    Well what if some new form of motor racing comes out that is better than Formula One? Does that mean a new pinnacle of motor racing can not exist then, because Formula One can not be surpassed? No. The definition does not work in that way at all. Formula One is the current peak of motor racing, as simply regarded in this Oxford Dictionary example. There's no further clause to say the pinnacle does not exist just because some new form of Motor Racing could be invented that is better than Formula One. It's not a static factual statement.

    So even if you say you're using the Oxford Dictionary meaning, you're interpreting it wrong. And the sad fact is, you're dismissing anyone who cares to point this out to you on the basis that you think they're just defending D2, when it's a matter of correcting you.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-24 at 09:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Except it's not.

    Oxford Dictionary defines Pinnacle as any peak achievement. You're arguing that peak achievements do not exist because other games come along and surpass that peak; and rather than acknowledging that the peak achievement can change or be updated, you've made a wide assumption that a peak simply can't exist.

    Yet the Oxford dictionary clearly states what a pinnacle is, and there is no clause to say it's an unachievable state. All of the examples of the word in use implies that it can be updated to reflect a new peak.

    So even if you say you're using the Oxford Dictionary meaning, you're interpreting it wrong. And the sad fact is, you're dismissing anyone who cares to point this out to you on the basis that you think they're just defending D2, when it's a matter of correcting you.
    Meaning of pinnacle in English:

    pinnacle
    Pronunciation /ˈpɪnək(ə)l/
    See synonyms for pinnacle

    Translate pinnacle into Spanish
    noun

    1The most successful point; the culmination.
    ‘he had reached the pinnacle of his career’

    2A high, pointed piece of rock.
    ‘As we chugged along the vivid green Wuyang River towards Dragon King Gorge, thickly forested crags and pinnacles of rock rose high above.’

    2.1A small pointed turret built as an ornament on a roof.
    ‘The structure reminded Manda of a creepy haunted mansion she'd often seen in movies, the grouped chimneys and pinnacles, the sloping roof, the parapets and the oriel and quatrefoil windows.’

    verb
    [with object] literary

    1Form the culminating point or example of.

    2Set on or as if on a pinnacle.

    Origin

    Middle English from Old French, from late Latin pinnaculum, diminutive of pinna ‘wing, point’.

    That is the oxford dictionary meaning of pinnacle, not the nonsense you are posting above. Something being the pinnacle is not just any achievement, its the highest possible achievement that can be obtained by something or a person.

    Pinnacle is the highest possible achievement to obtain, nothing can surpass something being the pinnacle of something, in gaming things can always be improved so pinnacle has no meaning because something can always be made to surpass previous games.
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  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Pinnacle is the highest possible achievement to obtain, nothing can surpass something being the pinnacle of something, in gaming things can always be improved so pinnacle has no meaning because something can always be made to surpass previous games.
    That bolded part? Not in the Oxford Dictionary at all.

    Again, you're personally misinterpretting the defintion, and passing it off as a fact. Where in the Oxford dictionary say that Pinnacle means insurmountable?

    You're implying the defintiion an entirely different word. Insurmountable is not in the defintion of Pinnacle. Pinnacle means highest point of success, but there is no clause to say there is only one mutually exclusive peak that can not be surpassed. Again, nothing in the defintion you listed says this. Absolutely nothing saying it can not be surpassed.


    "The most successful point; the culmination." is a statement that applies to any standard of progression. If the highest mark you ever got on a math test was 85%, then that's the most successful point you have; your pinnacle achievement. If you studied harder to get 90%, then that would become the new pinnacle achievement. Nothing implies that the 85% being a pinnacle of success would not be able to be surpassed; the definition of Pinnacle simply applies to the peak achievement. Pinnacles and 'Best' are relative values; not absolutes. You're implying that calling something a pinnacle means it must be an absolute, but the truth is the pinnacle simply adapts itself to whatever newly defined top achievement is.


    So in the case of calling D2 the pinnacle of ARPG design, one simply has to regard another ARPG that is better than D2's design as the new pinnacle. That's how it logically works. So in your own argument of PoE or D3 being better, then you could argue that either PoE or D3 have become the new peak of achievement. Yet for whatever reason, you seem to think that pinnacles don't exist at all, and honestly it's baffling why you would think that considering you point out Oxford Dictionary and yet you aren't even sticking to its definitions, you're implying all these extra clauses that aren't mentioned at all in the definition.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-24 at 10:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That bolded part? Not in the Oxford Dictionary at all.

    Again, you're personally misinterpretting the defintion, and passing it off as a fact. Where in the Oxford dictionary say that Pinnacle means insurmountable?

    You're implying the defintiion an entirely different word. Insurmountable is not in the defintion of Pinnacle. Pinnacle means highest point of success, but there is no clause to say there is only one mutually exclusive peak that can not be surpassed. Again, nothing in the defintion you listed says this. Absolutely nothing saying it can not be surpassed.


    "The most successful point; the culmination." is a statement that applies to any standard of progression. If the highest mark you ever got on a math test was 85%, then that's the most successful point you have; your pinnacle achievement. If you studied harder to get 90%, then that would become the new pinnacle achievement.
    D2 has never once be aclaimed to be the pinnacle of anything, im using the defintion correctly because your use of pinnacle removes the whole reason the word exists, you are just not going to win the argument. Your use of pinnacle has been incorrect this entire time.

    In the simplest of terms pinnacle means best of the best. Its origional use is the highest possible point, its impossible to surpass the highest possible point.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-24 at 10:11 PM.
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  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2 has never once be aclaimed to be the pinnacle of anything, im using the defintion correctly because your use of pinnacle removes the whole reason the word exists, you are just not going to win the argument. Your use of pinnacle has been incorrect this entire time.

    In the simplest of terms pinnacle means best of the best.
    What do you mean D2 has never once be aclaimed to the pinnacle of anything?

    The poster you replied to exclaimed that they think D2 was the pinnacle of RPG design.

    Do you not realize that the word Pinnacle applies to a subjective value? You really think there is some factual regard to this terminology? In regards to design, it's always going to be subjectively valued. There isn't any OFFICIAL regard of what a pinnacle can or can not be; it's simply a term used to describe the best of the best.

    It's like the definition of a 'Best Friend', the value is relative to the individual and who they think is their best friend. There's no objective value saying only this ONE PERSON can be your best friend, and no other person can ever become a Best Friend. Or, the way you're twisting the definition, 'Best Friends don't exist'

    In the simplest of terms pinnacle means best of the best. Its origional use is the highest possible point, its impossible to surpass the highest possible point.
    But the definition does not imply that the highest point ever gets surpassed. It is a definition that regards the highest point.

    If something new comes along that surpasses the standard set by the old peak, it becomes the new definition of the highest peak. It does not *surpass* the pinnacle, it *becomes* the pinnacle.

    If your argument is that D2 was never great, never the pinnacle, and that PoE and D3 were better, then your argument is that PoE or D3 would be the peak achievement of ARPGs (or some other game that is better than either of these). The peak is simply the regard of the highest point of design.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-24 at 10:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What do you mean D2 has never once be aclaimed to the pinnacle of anything?

    The poster you replied to exclaimed that they think D2 was the pinnacle of RPG design.

    Do you not realize that the word Pinnacle applies to a subjective value? You really think there is some factual regard to this terminology? In regards to design, it's always going to be subjectively valued.
    Some rando claiming it to be the pinnacle is not the same in it actually being one, it won a game of the year award once in its expansion launch year and that was it, it didnt win any awards claiming it was the pinnacle of its design.

    The game mostly done well because of the online play system they put into it, without that the game would of failed.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-24 at 10:21 PM.
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  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Some rando claiming it to be the pinnacle is not the same in it actually being one, it won a game of the year award once in its expansion launch year and that was it, it didnt win any awards claiming it was the pinnacle of its design.
    So where does the Oxford definition say it that pinnacles are only defined by awards that define them as being pinnacles?

    "‘he had reached the pinnacle of his career’"

    So he had to win an award that defined it as being the pinnacle of his career to be recognized as such?


    https://www.gosunoob.com/guides/diab...ase-date-time/

    It’s no wonder that this is the case, seeing as the Diablo franchise is one of the most iconic action role-playing games ever made. Diablo 2, especially, is considered by many to be the pinnacle of the genre

    Gamerant:
    Fans are already getting excited as the series has long defined the pinnacle of dungeon-crawlers to many players.


    https://steamcommunity.com/discussio...2332326888651/
    Yes, I know blizzard created the genre and diablo 2 is (according to most(not me)) the pinnacle of the genre.

    https://www.resetera.com/threads/dia...athers.490525/
    Considered by many to be the pinnacle of the genre, their wait is finally over.

    https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...7002664?page=6
    I think the legacy of Diablo 2 lasting over a decade is lost on many people that were too young to play it at the time. Thus, they don't know why Diablo 2 is the pinnacle of ARPGs and why every ARPG released after it is always compared to it.

    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3...hange/43946/39
    Why? because Diablo has a gigantic built-in fanbase of tens of millions and D2 was the pinnacle of its enjoyment.


    My previous explanation of D2 being a 'pinnacle' of the ARPG genre is something that the community-at-large has come to regard. It's not an isolated case of anyone's personal value of it being considered such, so I'm completely refuting your assertion that *D2 has never once be aclaimed to be the pinnacle of anything*. Yes, it has been acclaimed as being a pinnacle, by multiple sources, in both official news sources and from individual members in the community. I'm showing you that there IS tangible regard.

    Whether you personally agree or disagree however, is absolutely your valid choice in doing so. There is no singular regard to what a pinnacle is, and below is an example:

    https://www.polygon.com/reviews/2019...games-rpg-loot
    Of course, the classic question remains: Is Torchlight 2 better than Diablo 3? But I’m not sure that it matters. They’re both pinnacles of action RPG design that coming at the genre in different ways.

    You can see here, pinnacles can be applied to more than just one perceived peak. Polygon is one of the major game news editorials out there.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-24 at 10:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Being the best for a while and being the pinnacle of a genre is two completely different things.

    The combat is an evolved form of other aRPGs so you are just insulting D2 gameplay because all hack and slash games play the same at the core, what makes them different is the choices available to the player.

    Story ingames means nothing, diablo is just the standard angel and demon stuff nothing special and the games dont really tell that much of a story to begin with, its just to fill the game out a little more.
    You are flat out wrong a d this is coming from someone that feels D2 is seriously overrated. It was acclaimed as the pinnacle at the time by many. There is a reason so many other games have tried to mimic aspects of it throughout the years. And while I feel D1 a d D3 are better games, I still can accept what D2 was a d what it did to the genre.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    You are flat out wrong a d this is coming from someone that feels D2 is seriously overrated. It was acclaimed as the pinnacle at the time by many. There is a reason so many other games have tried to mimic aspects of it throughout the years. And while I feel D1 a d D3 are better games, I still can accept what D2 was a d what it did to the genre.
    You cant just claim its the pinnacle of anything without anything to back it up, even the whole D2 community doesnt have the right to claim the game as the pinnacle of a genre. D2 just copied all its systems from the first Diablo and other games available, it didnt do anything special, and the first version of it needed an expansion to be be considered a decent game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So where does the Oxford definition say it that pinnacles are only defined by awards that define them as being pinnacles?

    "‘he had reached the pinnacle of his career’"

    So he had to win an award that defined it as being the pinnacle of his career to be recognized as such?


    https://www.gosunoob.com/guides/diab...ase-date-time/

    It’s no wonder that this is the case, seeing as the Diablo franchise is one of the most iconic action role-playing games ever made. Diablo 2, especially, is considered by many to be the pinnacle of the genre

    Gamerant:
    Fans are already getting excited as the series has long defined the pinnacle of dungeon-crawlers to many players.


    https://steamcommunity.com/discussio...2332326888651/
    Yes, I know blizzard created the genre and diablo 2 is (according to most(not me)) the pinnacle of the genre.

    https://www.resetera.com/threads/dia...athers.490525/
    Considered by many to be the pinnacle of the genre, their wait is finally over.

    https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...7002664?page=6
    I think the legacy of Diablo 2 lasting over a decade is lost on many people that were too young to play it at the time. Thus, they don't know why Diablo 2 is the pinnacle of ARPGs and why every ARPG released after it is always compared to it.
    Fans of D2 will claim anything, it doesnt actually make it true and still its not officially stated to be the pinnacle of the genre. It was the first game released with battle.net, thats the main reason for its success, not the actual game itself, the game required an expansion to actually be considered a decent game.

    It was the best game of its type for a while, thats why other games are compared to it, not because of it being the pinnacle of anything.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-24 at 10:39 PM.
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  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You cant just claim its the pinnacle of anything without anything to back it up
    False.

    Pinnacles are subjective standards, so it does not need to be proven.

    How do you prove someone valuing the pinnacle of their career? There is no objective standard to this, because it's not based on anything tangible.

    Say someone could say the pinnacle of their career was when they got to work directly with James Cameron on a movie, even though they're working in a different studio and a different company making more money than they did back then. Pinnacle is a subjective value of success.

    Fans of D2 will claim anything, it doesnt actually make it true
    If it's expressed as an opinion, then that is exactly how pinnacle is regarded as. An expression of an opinion.

    Again, the difference is you're applying a non-subjective value to the definition of Pinnacle, and twisting the defintion altogether. Even in every example of the word, they're all referring to subjective values.

    Formula One is the pinnacle of motor racing - Not a factual statement. Absolutely subjective. How do you evaluate this to be true or false?

    Pinnacle of his career - Not a factual statement. No burden of proof. Absolutely subjective. How do you evaluate this to be true or false?


    Where in the Oxford Dictionary does it say pinnacle has to mean insurmountable? Where does it say it only regards factual statements? None. So you're interpretting definitions that do not exist.


    When regarding the highest form of success in terms of design, then the highest form of design is absolutely subjective, since there is no factual regard to this value. Design value is not objectively tangible.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-24 at 10:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    False.

    Pinnacles are subjective standards, so it does not need to be proven.

    How do you prove someone valuing the pinnacle of their career? There is no objective standard to this, because it's not based on anything tangible.



    If it's expressed as an opinion, then that is exactly how pinnacle is regarded as. An expression of an opinion.

    Again, the difference is you're applying a non-subjective value to the definition of Pinnacle, and twisting the defintion altogether. Even in every example of the word, they're all referring to subjective values.

    Formula One is the pinnacle of motor racing - Not a factual statement. Absolutely subjective. How do you evaluate this to be true or false?

    Pinnacle of his career - Not a factual statement. No burden of proof. Absolutely subjective. How do you evaluate this to be true or false?


    Where in the Oxford Dictionary does it say pinnacle has to mean insurmountable? Where does it say it only regards factual statements? None. So you're interpretting definitions that do not exist.
    It does actually need to be proven, you cant just claim something is the pinnacle just because you want it to be, thats not how it works, games are assessed via independant means, there is nothing official stating D2 is the pinnacle of anything, its just an opinion by some fans of the game and thats it.

    The highest point is the highest point, nothing can get higher its as simple as that, you will not win by making up your own understanding on a definition.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-24 at 10:57 PM.
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  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It does actually need to be proven, you cant just claim something is the pinnacle just because you want it to be, thats not how it works, games are assessed via independant means, there is nothing official stating D2 is the pinnacle of anything, its just an opinion by some fans of the game and thats it.

    The highest point is the highest point, nothing can get higher than it simple as that, you will not win.
    You dug your own hole with this one.


    So how do you prove that highest point of ARPG design?


    Which design is proven to be higher valued, PoE or Diablo 3?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  18. #338
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  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You dug your own hole with this one.


    So how do you prove that highest point of ARPG design?


    Which design is proven to be higher valued, PoE or Diablo 3?
    Playerbase alone proves which design is higher valued, so you have lost again.
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  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Playerbase alone proves which design is higher valued, so you have lost again.
    This blows your whole argument out of the water. You claimed fans cant just claim something to be the pinnacle, yet, the playerbase along with critics at the time claimed D2 to be the pinnacle back in 2000.

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