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  1. #341
    Is this thread about D2 being the "pinnacle" or is it about new content for D2 Resurrected? I honestly can't tell.
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  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Is this thread about D2 being the "pinnacle" or is it about new content for D2 Resurrected? I honestly can't tell.
    It should be about new content, but it's not like that discussion was really going anywhere anyways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Playerbase alone proves which design is higher valued, so you have lost again.
    Game Developers Choice Awards seems to disagree with your definition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_D...ds#Best_Design

    Best Design award recognizes the overall excellence of design in a game, including gameplay, mechanics, puzzles, play balancing and scenarios.

    Nowhere does it say playerbase alone defines this. So where are you getting your criteria from?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-24 at 11:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    This blows your whole argument out of the water. You claimed fans cant just claim something to be the pinnacle, yet, the playerbase along with critics at the time claimed D2 to be the pinnacle back in 2000.
    D2 didnt win any awards and was claimed to be the pinnacle of aRPGs back in 2000, winning game of the year once is not the same as being the pinnacle of a genre, maybe if it won game of the year a few more times in a row but it didnt, you blew your own argument out of the water with nothing that backs you up.

    Its only years and years later with hardcore D2 fans nostalgia that even thinks the game is the pinnacle of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It should be about new content, but it's not like that discussion was really going anywhere anyways.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Game Developers Choice Awards seems to disagree with your definition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_D...ds#Best_Design

    Best Design award recognizes the overall excellence of design in a game, including gameplay, mechanics, puzzles, play balancing and scenarios.

    Nowhere does it say playerbase alone defines this. So where are you getting your criteria from?
    You just proved yourself wrong yet again, D2 has not won any best design awards so it cant be the pinnacle of aRPG design if it has not won anything saying it is.

    Concurrent playerbase determines what is a better game.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-25 at 12:45 AM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2 didnt win any awards and was claimed to be the pinnacle of aRPGs back in 2000
    lol, probably because it was one of the first of its kind back then. How many isometric ARPGs do you remember in 1997? lol

    What defined it as a pinnacle is widespread regard. You said fans can claim anything - YES! That is EXACTLY how one defines a pinnacle - through a claim; an expressed opinion. So how can you ignore all the examples I posted? What exactly are you looking for as proof here, because the Oxford dictionary provided examples of the word in use AS being a claim, and I provided examples OF CLAIMS from the community of the word being applied to Diablo 2.

    If you're ignoring the proof, then you're deliberately being ignorant. I'm calling you out on creating an argument of bad faith. You asked for proof, I proved it legitimately, and you refuse to regard it on the basis of 'not being any awards saying so' even though that's not a requirement for that definition to be used.

    There are no awards for a person establishing the pinnacle of their career, or Formula One being the pinnacle of Motor Sports either. These are purely CLAIMS made about careers and motorsports. Your argument is absolutely based on conjecture. Simple as that.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-25 at 01:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    lol, probably because it was one of the first of its kind back then. How many isometric ARPGs do you remember in 1997? lol

    What defined it as a pinnacle is widespread regard. You said fans can claim anything - YES! That is EXACTLY how one defines a pinnacle - through a claim; an expressed opinion. So how can you ignore all the examples I posted? What exactly are you looking for as proof here, because the Oxford dictionary provided examples of the word in use AS being a claim, and I provided examples OF CLAIMS from the community of the word being applied to Diablo 2.

    If you're ignoring the proof, then you're deliberately being ignorant. I'm calling you out on creating an argument of bad faith. You asked for proof, I proved it legitimately, and you refuse to regard it on the basis of 'not being any awards saying so' even though that's not a requirement for that definition to be used.

    There are no awards for a person establishing the pinnacle of their career, or Formula One being the pinnacle of Motor Sports either. Your argument is absolutely based on conjecture. Simple as that.
    You have no proof whatsoever in diablo 2 being the pinnacle of aRPG design, a few fans saying something will never make it true, what we actually have is actual games to play and we can determine what the best aRPG design actually is and its not D2. The fanbase has no say in what is the pinnacle or not, fans are always biased towards the game they like the best regardless of gameplay.

    Games are determined by what awards they win, D2 has not won an award claiming it to be the pinnacle of anything so everything you say is just an opinion and not based in actual fact.

    If 2 diablo won some awards in things like best game design, and such then that would be actual proof, but all it did was win game of the year once and that not that impressive.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-25 at 01:42 AM.
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  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    If 2 diablo won some awards in things like best game design, and such then that would be actual proof, but all it did was win game of the year once and that not that impressive.
    Bullshit.

    Even if Diablo 2 won those awards, you'd just shift the goalposts hard, and say "Yeah that was back in 200X, it's not the pinnacle now!". C'mon man, who you trying to fool here? You think you would actually recognize Diablo 2 as being a pinnacle even if it won awards? I'm not buying it. You're all bad faith arguments, to the point of saying Pinnacles don't exist.

    The fact is, you don't recognize any pinnacle at all, and your argument is all over the place when deciding what you consider proof. First it's playerbase, then it's awards, and overall it's 'it doesn't exist'. The goalposts are all over the place.

    There is no way to define a pinnacle using your argument, because you do not have any consistent standard for how to define a pinnacle. The standard is literally 'whatever I feel like'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Bullshit.

    Even if Diablo 2 won those awards, you'd just shift the goalposts hard, and say "Yeah that was back in 200X, it's not the pinnacle now!". C'mon man, who you trying to fool here? You think you would actually recognize Diablo 2 as being a pinnacle even if it won awards? I'm not buying it. You're all bad faith arguments, to the point of saying Pinnacles don't exist.

    The fact is, you don't recognize any pinnacle at all, and your argument is all over the place when deciding what you consider proof. First it's playerbase, then it's awards, and overall it's 'it doesn't exist'. The goalposts are all over the place.

    There is no way to define a pinnacle using your argument, because you do not have any consistent standard for how to define a pinnacle. The standard is literally 'whatever I feel like'.
    Its just a simple fact D2 is not the pinnacle of anything and no game is ever going to be the pinnacle of anything unless its made so perfect nothing can be improved on further. It is you who is arguing in bad faith just because you have been proven to be wrong.

    To be considered proof i require actual facts and evidence, of which there is nothing other that fan comments expressing an opinion.

    Your own opinions about D2 do not make it anything more than a decent game, and the best game for a short while a long long time ago.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-25 at 04:50 AM.
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  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    no game is ever going to be the pinnacle of anything unless its made so perfect nothing can be improved on further.
    That's a false equivalency. That is not how pinnacle is used, and if it were the case then you would not be able to explain why credible news outlets like Polygon chose to apply Pinnacle as a term for both Torchlight 2 and Diablo 3 in regards to the ARPG genre. Clearly, a professional news outlet disagrees with your definition, and you can't exactly say it's wrong if Pinnacle is used in this very way in the Oxford dictionary. Again, nothing in Oxford Dictionary examples mention that something has to be so perfect that nothing can be improved upon; that is not in their definition so by factual evidence, I point out that you are not regarding Oxford's definition at all.

    To be considered proof i require actual facts and evidence, of which there is nothing other that fan comments expressing an opinion.
    Then you are using an argument from ignorance.

    You're saying that if you didn't get the Pinnacle of your Career award, then you can't claim you reached the Pinnacle of your Career. That is not evidence, that is absence of evidence. You're using a fictional standard that doesn't exist, and therefore it is impossible to prove. You require facts and evidence which will never exist because they are purely fictional standards; there is no such thing as a Pinnacle ARPG award. Just like there is no Pinnacle of your Careerr award. That is not a fact, that is a fallacy.


    Argumentum ad Ignoratiam: this argument involves a single premise to the effect that there is no evidence / proof / knowledge that x is true. From this premise is drawn the conclusion that x is false.



    So it's pretty clear we have nothing left to discuss, since your mind is made up. Again, we clearly agree to disagree. I'm not interested in debating fallacies. If you wish to remain ignorant, I will not get in your way.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-09-25 at 05:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Playerbase alone proves which design is higher valued, so you have lost again.
    Lol.

    This is something like “it has sold millions of copies, it HAS to be a great game”… just no.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    D2 didnt win any awards and was claimed to be the pinnacle of aRPGs back in 2000, winning game of the year once is not the same as being the pinnacle of a genre, maybe if it won game of the year a few more times in a row but it didnt, you blew your own argument out of the water with nothing that backs you up.

    Its only years and years later with hardcore D2 fans nostalgia that even thinks the game is the pinnacle of anything.



    You just proved yourself wrong yet again, D2 has not won any best design awards so it cant be the pinnacle of aRPG design if it has not won anything saying it is.

    Concurrent playerbase determines what is a better game.
    You must be tired of moving the goalposts.

    It didn't win any awards. But it did.
    Okay, but 1 award doesn't mean anything.

    Look, we all know you have this raging hate boner for D2. But man, were even around back in 2000 to pay attention to the game and the news around it? If you did you would know it was considered the pinnacle of ARPGs at the time.

    It sure did. But again keep moving them goalposts.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diab...ement%20Awards.

  11. #351
    For once on anything i agree with bovinity, look it was my high school game, but if you think d2 is pinnacle of any genre of gaming right now, you are fucking brain damaged copium nostalgia clown, which is fine. But only people like you dont understand what the word pinnacle mean. I mean, clearly the wheel is the pinnacle of technology. Would we even have cellphones if the wheel didnt jumpstart our ability to move and lift objects!!!!!!!! PROBABLY NOT OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! PINNACLE.

    The wheel was the pinnacle of technology like 5000 years ago, ITS NOT NOW. Hence its not the pinnacle ANYMORE.

    Pinnacle: the most successful point; the culmination. (Hey look neither of these are true) In 2021 Diablo 2, is neither the most successful ARPG or the culmination of ARPGs.

    Problem solved.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2021-09-25 at 04:10 PM.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    For once on anything i agree with bovinity, look it was my high school game, but if you think d2 is pinnacle of any genre of gaming, you are fucking brain damaged copium nostalgia clown, which is fine. But only people like you dont understand what the word pinnacle mean. I mean, clearly the wheel is the pinnacle of technology. Would when even have cellphones if the wheel didnt jumpstart our ability to move and lift objects!!!!!!!! PROBABLY NOT OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! PINNACLE.
    A more apt description is that the game is foundational for what came after it. At the very least, one could say it was very influential towards what came after it.

    As a slight aside, as I've seen it in several posts, I would never consider awards a metric of how good a game is. Especially in this day and age where awards tend to be highly based upon social/political agendas, or at the very least not a reflection of what the actual gamers think. Awards and awards ceremonies for games (and movies, TV, etc.) are basically just industry circle-jerks to congratulate each other.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    You must be tired of moving the goalposts.

    It didn't win any awards. But it did.
    Okay, but 1 award doesn't mean anything.

    Look, we all know you have this raging hate boner for D2. But man, were even around back in 2000 to pay attention to the game and the news around it? If you did you would know it was considered the pinnacle of ARPGs at the time.

    It sure did. But again keep moving them goalposts.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diab...ement%20Awards.
    It won game of the year once, hardly worthy of claiming it to be the pinnacle of the genre, skyrim won mutlipe game of the years and RPG of the year awards but its still not the pinnacle of it genre either.

    Im just stating a clear fact, not about hating anything because im currently playing it a little bit, someone posted D2 was the pinnacle of the genre and that is just a complete lie.

    I have said many times D2 is a decent game but thats all it is, no need to put the game on a pedestal by claiming its the pinnacle of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Lol.

    This is something like “it has sold millions of copies, it HAS to be a great game”… just no.
    Im talking about active playerbase, that alone shows how good a game is at actually retaining players, that also means the game is pretty good if it can retain an active playerbase for almost 10 years without a significant drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's a false equivalency. That is not how pinnacle is used, and if it were the case then you would not be able to explain why credible news outlets like Polygon chose to apply Pinnacle as a term for both Torchlight 2 and Diablo 3 in regards to the ARPG genre. Clearly, a professional news outlet disagrees with your definition, and you can't exactly say it's wrong if Pinnacle is used in this very way in the Oxford dictionary. Again, nothing in Oxford Dictionary examples mention that something has to be so perfect that nothing can be improved upon; that is not in their definition so by factual evidence, I point out that you are not regarding Oxford's definition at all.



    Then you are using an argument from ignorance.

    You're saying that if you didn't get the Pinnacle of your Career award, then you can't claim you reached the Pinnacle of your Career. That is not evidence, that is absence of evidence. You're using a fictional standard that doesn't exist, and therefore it is impossible to prove. You require facts and evidence which will never exist because they are purely fictional standards; there is no such thing as a Pinnacle ARPG award. Just like there is no Pinnacle of your Careerr award. That is not a fact, that is a fallacy.


    Argumentum ad Ignoratiam: this argument involves a single premise to the effect that there is no evidence / proof / knowledge that x is true. From this premise is drawn the conclusion that x is false.



    So it's pretty clear we have nothing left to discuss, since your mind is made up. Again, we clearly agree to disagree. I'm not interested in debating fallacies. If you wish to remain ignorant, I will not get in your way.
    Pinnacle is used to describe something or someone reaching its most successful point, you have been proven wrong over and over and fail to accept that. Do you honestly believe the D2 game design reached its most successful point for the whole aRPG genre.

    A news outlet source is not a credible tool to use to claim something is anything let alone the pinnacle of a genre, news sources are just opinions.

    At the end of the day all you have is an opinion, D2 has not been proven to be the pinnacle of anything.

    There is also a best game design award which D2 did not win, you do realise why there is no pinnacle award because the term is not suited to be used in gaming, because nothing will ever be the pinnacle of game design or anything.

    The main reason D2 done well back in 2000 was battle.net, not many games had easy social access before.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-09-25 at 06:30 PM.
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  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    "At the time" being the important thing here. It was the hot shit back then, no doubt.

    20 years later, it's just a old game with a lot of clout because of it's status, but without much meat on its bones and very little going for it compared to modern offerings.
    I am not claiming it is the pinnacle today. I didn't think it was back then, but it definitely was considered it in its prime of 2000-2004ish.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It won game of the year once, hardly worthy of claiming it to be the pinnacle of the genre, skyrim won mutlipe game of the years and RPG of the year awards but its still not the pinnacle of it genre either.

    Im just stating a clear fact, not about hating anything because im currently playing it a little bit, someone posted D2 was the pinnacle of the genre and that is just a complete lie.

    I have said many times D2 is a decent game but thats all it is, no need to put the game on a pedestal by claiming its the pinnacle of anything.



    Im talking about active playerbase, that alone shows how good a game is at actually retaining players, that also means the game is pretty good if it can retain an active playerbase for almost 10 years without a significant drop.



    Pinnacle is used to describe something or someone reaching its most successful point, you have been proven wrong over and over and fail to accept that. Do you honestly believe the D2 game design reached its most successful point for the whole aRPG genre.

    A news outlet source is not a credible tool to use to claim something is anything let alone the pinnacle of a genre, news sources are just opinions.

    At the end of the day all you have is an opinion, D2 has not been proven to be the pinnacle of anything.

    There is also a best game design award which D2 did not win, you do realise why there is no pinnacle award because the term is not suited to be used in gaming, because nothing will ever be the pinnacle of game design or anything.

    The main reason D2 done well back in 2000 was battle.net, not many games had easy social access before.
    "They didn't win any awards"

    Shows proof of awards.

    "Those don't count"

    Is that the sound of goalposts moving?

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post

    "They didn't win any awards"

    Shows proof of awards.

    "Those don't count"

    Is that the sound of goalposts moving?
    Winning 1 game of the year award is far from being the pinnacle of an aRPG genre isnt it, thats the whole point, D2 fans claiming the game is better than even what is currently available now.
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  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Winning 1 game of the year award is far from being the pinnacle of an aRPG genre isnt it, thats the whole point, D2 fans claiming the game is better than even what is currently available now.
    Never claimed awards equated to being a determining factor. You made the claim it never won any. I showed you they did. You are still ignoring that outlets claimed it and many players of the genre made the claim. You seem to want some objective evidence for a subjective claim.

  17. #357
    Are you guys still humoring Star Citizen cultist with thread derailment?

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Never claimed awards equated to being a determining factor. You made the claim it never won any. I showed you they did. You are still ignoring that outlets claimed it and many players of the genre made the claim. You seem to want some objective evidence for a subjective claim.
    I did not claim it didnt win any, i said it didnt win any award that would state D2 was the pinnacle of aRPG design, like some D2 hardcore fans just assume it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Are you guys still humoring Star Citizen cultist with thread derailment?
    Why dont you post with some sort of intellect at the very least, im not the one stating any game is the pinnacle of a genre or am i saying the game is bad itself, D2 is what it is, a relic from an old era that is long since past.
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  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    I hope the remaster is successful and they add content/changes.

    The game desperately needs it. People seem to forget you can only kill one or two bosses on Hell because of immunities and no one is getting an infinity polearm without dupes like back in the day.
    I was super excited for DII. Then I played it and I realized I spent 50 bucks to remember how great DIII is. Ending up setting DII aside and started a DII seasonal character.

  20. #360
    The remaster is fantastic. I actually do hope they add additional content to it. A couple of thoughts I had in that vein were adding the Paragon system or adding in content from the first Diablo that you can take your D2R character into, but really jack up the difficulty and rewards that you can get from the D1 areas/chapters.

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