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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Idk man.. like I said there just to many thing that feel like an opinion and just to broad to just flatley say: its because of the players. I can sum up a list as well where feedback was given and none was used. Your game works because you and I play and pay, so they better listen. But like I said as well this feels like an entire different company then when I first started playing in vanilla.

    Thorghast is a good example why it seems you dont get it.
    Thorghast in their eyes was a player and developer mix of feedback and working together. It didnt turn out that way because they didnt listen and you see the effect on live servers. Throghast was a fail and mostly fire and forget. Now that everyone got their legendary there is no reason to do it anymore. There are alot of vids on youtube about streamers who provided feedback and were shocked at the final changes they made at the end.
    You need to pay more attention to the feedback that was delivered. The feedback was that it took too long, that it felt bad to not be able to "complete" something, that it felt bad for your powers to determine too much about your run, that it shouldn't be mandatory, etc.. Those are the things the streamers and demanded. What they didn't realize is that getting what they want would ruin the feature, and it did. Then, the streamers turn around and act baffled why it sucks now.

    It's exactly what I'm talking about: Players demand things, get what they want, and then act confused why the game sucks. It sucks because THEY AREN'T DESIGNERS so implementing their requests will make a bad game. What's a camel? A horse designed by committee.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #222
    When something is garbage, it is garbage regardless of how you want to decorate it,
    In relation to WoW specifically - when you charge money to purchase the game, charge money for expansions, charge for a subscription fee, have insanely over inflated service costs and an in game cash shop - you deserve to be scrutinised under a microscope. The sheer lack of quality, creativity and implementation in almost everything they do is beyond laughable, something I wouldn't expect from a F2P product.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    Yes lol. Compare WoW to MMOs like GW2, ESO, RIFT, BDO. It's night and day. WoW offers so much more content for your buck.

    That being said it's inexcusable that they aren't offering us better customisation. Fans have showed that a one man team can do it. So why won't Blizzard?
    It's a giant leap from "some guy used a 3D graphics tool to improve the textures" to "we have to incorporate every single change into millions of lines of code and then get each of the changes to cohesively match every armor set available to that class and the new skin". Creating a model rocket and flying into space make look similar, but they are worlds apart.
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    It's far easier to have a raid team of 8 than 20. So it impacts the quality by lowering the requirements of raiding.

    15-25 is just fine.
    But by that logic 15 is 10 easier than 25. Why would you settle for 15?

    Why are you happy with 25? Why not have 50? You scared of the challenge?

    No matter how many numbers you arbitrarily pull out of your ass, the challenge of raid encounters isn't solely determined by the number of players. Individually, it's determined by the specific responsibility each player has. As a whole, there's a level of challenge involved in coordinating the entire raid, but you could just as easily have a smaller raid size with more emphasis placed on individual skill. The overall difficulty of a raid encounter is determined by the inverse relationship between individual responsibility and overall coordination.

    The more each individual has to do, the harder it is to coordinate multiple players doing those things at the same time. The more individuals in the raid, the greater the probability of an individual player making mistakes throughout the encounter. Remember the green fire quest when it was first released? Remember Mage Tower when it was first released? Played a soulslike ever? Clearly you can create challenging encounters with as little as one player.

    20 man Sekiro final boss would be a clusterfuck. There would be so many opportunities to wipe horribly. Difficulty *can* be affected by the number of players per encounter, but that's a single factor and you're trying to push the idea that fewer players=easier. That's only true if the *only* thing you change is the number of players. There are plenty of other variables that can be tweaked to increase difficulty.

    I just don't think you've thought this through at all. Obviously it's possibly to create an 8 man encounter which is just as challenging as a 20 man encounter. You just have to make different design decisions.
    Last edited by Elkfingers; 2021-02-25 at 06:24 PM.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    People say this but if you've watched them over the years, the Game Director is clearly more in charge of gaining team consensus than calling the shots. I think it's very rare for the Game Director to directly make a decision and that's likely after all efforts at gaining consensus have failed. The effort to remove flying in Warlords is a good example. It took them months to finally make an obvious decision, much of that expressed in various channels. When they finally came to a decision, Ion announced it but it was clear that it was something that everyone in the building who had an opinion weighed in on and some disagreed with the final decision.

    So, I don't put much stock in the notion of a Blizzard Game Director handing out edicts from on high. That's not how they work and there's a ton of evidence over the years that demonstrates that. In fact, I would assume that if anyone is a hard-ass on making decisions, it's in the small group of executive producers and managers that essentially run the teams.
    I used to work at an activision studio (vicarious visions) which is now part of Blizzard, but when I worked there it wasn't. I can tell you unequivocally that the game director has a massive influence on the game. Ion used to write speedrun guides for raids. The game now plays like it was designed by someone who writes speedrun guides for raids. His old job was encounter designer. It feels like a game made by an encounter designer. The focus on prescriptive gameplay, the focus on mechanics, all of it points to Ion. Does he determine EVERYTHING? Obviously not, but he steers the ship.

    Do you think its a coincidence that the speedrun raid guide guy takes over and the first big feature implemented is M+? Cmon.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    "people hate this system" is valid infomration. Did you forget whose job it is to design the game? Not the player.
    Ok let's build on that:

    Player: "Covenants are trash."
    Devs: "Ok, which parts are trash?"
    Player: "People hate this system."
    Devs: "Ok, which part do they hate?"
    Player: "All of it."
    Devs: "If you had to pick your least favorite part, what would it be?"
    Player: "I hate how much anima shit takes and how long it takes to gather it."
    Devs: "I can work with that."

    If it all goes well, the Anima drop rates are increased to accomodate without drastically changing or trashing the system. As you can see it was not a huge leap from "Covenants are trash" to "I hate how little anima I get". If the criticizer jumped straight to that piece, the criticism feels more solid and is more likely to get attention and be addressed. Just my opinion.
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    It's a giant leap from "some guy used a 3D graphics tool to improve the textures" to "we have to incorporate every single change into millions of lines of code and then get each of the changes to cohesively match every armor set available to that class and the new skin". Creating a model rocket and flying into space make look similar, but they are worlds apart.
    Lol? Almost all the blood elf hairstyles clip with 3D chest pieces and collars. WoW's always been a mess of clipping. I'm not asking for body types like that one guy made, I just want dwarf beards on other races. It can't be that hard to make.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    But by that logic 15 is 10 easier than 25. Why would you settle for 15?

    Why are you happy with 25? Why not have 50? You scared of the challenge?

    No matter how many numbers you arbitrarily pull out of your ass, the challenge of raid encounters isn't solely determined by the number of players.
    Challenge is definitely determined by the number of players. In a Mythic raid if someone fucks up you're probably wiping. More people = higher chance someone fucks up = higher chance of wiping.

    Why would you settle for 15?
    Because we have 12 classes, so 15 seems reasonable. 10 is too few.
    Last edited by Kelduril; 2021-02-25 at 06:25 PM.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    That would mean people use the ptr for something other than getting raid mechanics learned or finding ways to get spoilers.
    Agreed. I think if Blizz wants to knock it out of the park, it should make one PTR for the bug testers, and another for the critics. Two servers is not a heavy lift, and it would give those who feel Blizz doesn't listen a chance to be heard and express their opinion about a system from a similar drop down as the bug report. The those who want to farm mechanics can do so to their hearts content, and the "critics server" would be simply for constructive feedback about the elements and their flow and feel.
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    Ok let's build on that:

    Player: "Covenants are trash."
    Devs: "Ok, which parts are trash?"
    Player: "People hate this system."
    Devs: "Ok, which part do they hate?"
    Player: "All of it."
    Devs: "If you had to pick your least favorite part, what would it be?"
    Player: "I hate how much anima shit takes and how long it takes to gather it."
    Devs: "I can work with that."

    If it all goes well, the Anima drop rates are increased to accomodate without drastically changing or trashing the system. As you can see it was not a huge leap from "Covenants are trash" to "I hate how little anima I get". If the criticizer jumped straight to that piece, the criticism feels more solid and is more likely to get attention and be addressed. Just my opinion.
    But the problem with the system isn't anima drops. Players might think it is, but it isn't, and increasing the drop rates won't fix what they don't like.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #230
    I feel there are far to many apologists which make people complaining seem more prevalent.

    We aren't overly critical, but to many are way to forgiving.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    Lol? Almost all the blood elf hairstyles clip with 3D chest pieces and collars. WoW's always been a mess of clipping. I'm not asking for body types like that one guy made, I just want dwarf beards on other races. It can't be that hard to make.





    - - - Updated - - -



    Challenge is definitely determined by the number of players. In a Mythic raid if someone fucks up you're probably wiping. More people = higher chance someone fucks up = higher chance of wiping.



    Because we have 12 classes, so 15 seems reasonable. 10 is too few.
    Therefore 40 man classic raids are harder than retail mythic raids. TWICE as hard in fact! /s
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    It's no secret who supports Blizz and who crucifies them with every, single decision; however, I have to wonder...

    have we become overcritical of a 15 year old MMO that continues to get updates? Ultima Online, EverQuest and World of Warcraft have been around for a long while and still have a large and dedicated fanbase, yet other MMOs like Aion, LotRO, Warhammer, Age of Conan, and even Guild Wars 2 all set out to dethrone the long standing favorites and eventually faded into nothingness. What do you suppose prevents some players from just being excited to still have new content and millions of other players?
    Yes. But it is not just regarding WoW. It is about any topic really.
    I guess you know the Dunning Kruger effect, people wo have no idea, think it is easy to grasp, but are completely missing the point. That leads to them thinking the know better, and everytime something annoys them -> Blizz just do that and it will be better.

    A prime example are vaccines, where toilet phone doctors tell actual scientists how they work xD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Therefore 40 man classic raids are harder than retail mythic raids. TWICE as hard in fact! /s
    Don't forget 30 people normal raids. That is the real WF race.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    Challenge is definitely determined by the number of players. In a Mythic raid if someone fucks up you're probably wiping. More people = higher chance someone fucks up = higher chance of wiping.

    Because we have 12 classes, so 15 seems reasonable. 10 is too few.
    Great. Now respond to the rest of the post. That's the bit where I specifically explained why you're wrong rather than the bit where I was clearly being facetious.

    Just to recap in case you blacked out before the second half, I agree that number of players is a factor. The point is that it's not the only factor.

    Just reposting for you. Here you go. Let me draw your attention here particularly to the phrase ISN'T SOLELY. That means: is a factor, but not the only one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    No matter how many numbers you arbitrarily pull out of your ass, the challenge of raid encounters isn't solely determined by the number of players. Individually, it's determined by the specific responsibility each player has. As a whole, there's a level of challenge involved in coordinating the entire raid, but you could just as easily have a smaller raid size with more emphasis placed on individual skill. The overall difficulty of a raid encounter is determined by the inverse relationship between individual responsibility and overall coordination.

    The more each individual has to do, the harder it is to coordinate multiple players doing those things at the same time. The more individuals in the raid, the greater the probability of an individual player making mistakes throughout the encounter. Remember the green fire quest when it was first released? Remember Mage Tower when it was first released? Played a soulslike ever? Clearly you can create challenging encounters with as little as one player.

    20 man Sekiro final boss would be a clusterfuck. There would be so many opportunities to wipe horribly. Difficulty *can* be affected by the number of players per encounter, but that's a single factor and you're trying to push the idea that fewer players=easier. That's only true if the *only* thing you change is the number of players. There are plenty of other variables that can be tweaked to increase difficulty.

    I just don't think you've thought this through at all. Obviously it's possibly to create an 8 man encounter which is just as challenging as a 20 man encounter. You just have to make different design decisions.
    Last edited by Elkfingers; 2021-02-25 at 06:33 PM.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    Lol? Almost all the blood elf hairstyles clip with 3D chest pieces and collars. WoW's always been a mess of clipping.
    Almost all, which means either some were fixed, or they were great from the get go. Even some of the more advanced MMO engines still suffer these hiccups, like SWTOR. Half of the female hairstyles have to be worked precisely into the outfit to ensure extremely minimal clipping. Then again, with my character constantly in motion, when I do stop to RP, clipping is not a concern because of her aesthetics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    But the problem with the system isn't anima drops. Players might think it is, but it isn't, and increasing the drop rates won't fix what they don't like.
    Then what is the problem as you see it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    I feel there are far to many apologists which make people complaining seem more prevalent.

    We aren't overly critical, but to many are way to forgiving.
    I'm not sure that being optimistically critical could be the same as being an apologist who simply lets it slide. Fans should be critical, but find the best possible way to communicate their criticism. Overly critical implies angry or unreasonable criticisms, or simply just nitpicking the game the way Chris Nunez would nitpick a tattoo.
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    Challenge is definitely determined by the number of players. In a Mythic raid if someone fucks up you're probably wiping. More people = higher chance someone fucks up = higher chance of wiping.
    Success rate =/= Difficulty.
    Or is typing "World of Warcraft" difficult, just because 1 out of 1 million might type it wrong? No, it is not, you just dont have a 100% success rate.

    Just because it is more likely that some guy doesnt see he has the Baron Geddon bomb, does not mean this fight is hard.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Yes. But it is not just regarding WoW. It is about any topic really.
    I guess you know the Dunning Kruger effect, people wo have no idea, think it is easy to grasp, but are completely missing the point. That leads to them thinking the know better, and everytime something annoys them -> Blizz just do that and it will be better.

    A prime example are vaccines, where toilet phone doctors tell actual scientists how they work xD.
    Has to be one of the most accurate and hilarious analogies I've read on this site. Thank you for a chuckle that almost cost me my orange juice
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Therefore 40 man classic raids are harder than retail mythic raids. TWICE as hard in fact! /s
    You're being obtuse on purpose. Raid size isn't the only thing that defines difficulty. But if Mythic Ghuun required 40 people and had 4 orbs that needed to be transported instead of 2 you bet your ass it would be harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    Almost all, which means either some were fixed, or they were great from the get go.
    No, the ones who don't just don't reach the collar/3D piece because they are short.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    You're being obtuse on purpose. Raid size isn't the only thing that defines difficulty. But if Mythic Ghuun required 40 people and had 4 orbs that needed to be transported you bet your ass it would be harder.
    Yeah and if it had 20 people with 4 orbs that needed to be transported then the orb carrying aspect of the encounter would be twice as difficult than in the 40 man.

    You calling other people obtuse is literally insane. Obviously difficulty, by your own admission, is a relational property determined by multiple factors. Despite this, you're still trying to insist that you can take encounter size as a single factor, disregarding all context, and use that as a standalone indicator of difficulty. You are the definition of obtuse, my dude. I have never seen another human be so fucking inconsistent in the service of defending a clearly indefensible position.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    You calling other people obtuse is literally insane. Obviously difficulty, by your own admission, is a relational property determined by multiple factors. Despite this, you're still trying to insist that you can take encounter size as a single factor, disregarding all context, and use that as a standalone indicator of difficulty. You are the definition of obtuse, my dude. I have never seen another human be so fucking inconsistent in the service of defending a clearly indefensible position.
    I think you should stick to Vanilla raids, I can't possibly see how my point isn't 'defensible'.

    It's simple math, if you introduce more players into the encounter and one player screwing up = wipe the difficulty increases.
    Last edited by Kelduril; 2021-02-25 at 06:43 PM.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    You not understanding my point is the definition of being obtuse.

    You clearly never raided on a Cutting Edge level. Stick to your Vanilla raids where bosses have 2 mechanics.
    Hilarious. Officer in a CE guild, thanks. Your understanding of what actually determines the difficulty of encounters is fucking terrible.

    You know, sometimes a few core players have life stuff come up and we have to drag the reserves in. Some of those players are good. Some of those players are getting a hard carry. You're 100% in the hard carry category, you just lack the self-awareness to realise it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    It's simple math, if you introduce more players into the encounter and one player screwing up = wipe the difficulty increases.
    Please give me a sign that you're not actually this braindead or they're going to have to turn the machines off. That is a factor, but it is related to other factors. You can increase encounter difficulty in plenty of other ways. Here's you explaining that yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    Raid size isn't the only thing that defines difficulty.
    By literally your own logic, it is possible to reduce raid size while either maintaining or increasing the difficulty through other means. Are you going to actually disagree with shit you just said now?

    I do understand your point. I just don't agree because your point is incredibly dumb, and is in direct conflict with other points that you've made.
    Last edited by Elkfingers; 2021-02-25 at 06:58 PM.

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