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  1. #81
    Honestly after seeing a bunch of photoshop with 3d models on it showing the new zone alongside 1 screenshot.. How can we not be critical? Especially when a few days ago they released a 6-month subscription mount plan......... Now we sitting here talking about a patch release in July/August.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    I believe that it is up to the criticized to make criticism constructive, not the criticizer. Even something as unintelligible as "you fucking suck" can improve someone if they allow it.
    I mean you can salvage information from that, but tbf, why would anyone want to appeal to such people who can't get a constructive sentence out and will kick off as a toddler on the next minor thing.
    Don't forget to mention how polarized community is on most of questions and there are many people who are either their way or it's "low effort corporate shit" and compromise is not possible.
    I look at giving feedback like a negotiation for what I want, but I don't forget there are other parties involved with their interests too. It's a game, I don't have fixed term contract with them, so if I don't get something I really want I can always remove myself anyway.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    Yes lol. Compare WoW to MMOs like GW2, ESO, RIFT, BDO. It's night and day. WoW offers so much more content for your buck.

    That being said it's inexcusable that they aren't offering us better customisation. Fans have showed that a one man team can do it. So why won't Blizzard?
    GW2 doesn’t have a sub fee.

    Weird how you didn’t mention FF14 or SWTOR, both games with insane amounts of story content that makes wow’s story look like a dated, linear joke.

    Weird how you didn’t mention Eve, a game with an unparalleled sandbox and community structure.

    At this point, wow is barely an MMO anyway. It’s more comparable to looters in a lot of ways, so we could also compare it to games like Destiny, which also offer a ton of things wow seems fundamentally incapable of doing, like actually interesting endgame loops and horizontal progression,
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    GW2 doesn’t have a sub fee.

    Weird how you didn’t mention FF14 or SWTOR, both games with insane amounts of story content that makes wow’s story look like a dated, linear joke.

    Weird how you didn’t mention Eve, a game with an unparalleled sandbox and community structure.

    At this point, wow is barely an MMO anyway. It’s more comparable to looters in a lot of ways, so we could also compare it to games like Destiny, which also offer a ton of things wow seems fundamentally incapable of doing, like actually interesting endgame loops and horizontal progression,
    Agree with ff14/ eve online but destiny is not a good example. They actually deleted a lot of content.
    eso&bdo are on another note also playable without a sub, gw2 is also straight up 100% better for pvp if you like its gameplay. You dont need to grind or pve to get a competitive pvp char. You straight up get maxed pvp only templates to play.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiradon View Post
    Honestly after seeing a bunch of photoshop with 3d models on it showing the new zone alongside 1 screenshot.. How can we not be critical? Especially when a few days ago they released a 6-month subscription mount plan......... Now we sitting here talking about a patch release in July/August.
    Again, It's not about being critical. It's about being overly critical. Being critical is healthy, but loosing shit or shitting on them for having schedule for mount release while being early in content patch development does not make sense as they are not mutually exclusive development products and one takes way less effort than another one, not to mention it's different teams too. So commenting on late patch release and being not prepared is fine, but someone going apeshit and using unrelated arguments is not criticism, it's being an asshat.
    Any reasonable person understood, that we won't get 9.1 patch for a while because of the delayed release + crunch and then Christmas holiday following that.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    Agree with ff14/ eve online but destiny is not a good example. They actually deleted a lot of content.
    eso&bdo are on another note also playable without a sub, gw2 is also straight up 100% better for pvp if you like its gameplay. You dont need to grind or pve to get a competitive pvp char. You straight up get maxed pvp only templates to play.
    My point about destiny wasn’t content, my point was that destiny does a lot of things right that wow does wrong. Destiny is mainly based on horizontal progression, something wow has almost entirely rejected.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Again, It's not about being critical. It's about being overly critical. Being critical is healthy, but loosing shit or shitting on them for having schedule for mount release while being early in content patch development does not make sense as they are not mutually exclusive development products and one takes way less effort than another one, not to mention it's different teams too. So commenting on late patch release and being not prepared is fine, but someone going apeshit and using unrelated arguments is not criticism, it's being an asshat.
    Any reasonable person understood, that we won't get 9.1 patch for a while because of the delayed release + crunch and then Christmas holiday following that.
    Yeah it's fine, I'm really hoping they save some specs in 9.0.5 otherwise it's a bit of a mess.

    I'm expecting them to release the patch and hold the raid hostage for a few weeks to time gate it a bit
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    My point about destiny wasn’t content, my point was that destiny does a lot of things right that wow does wrong. Destiny is mainly based on horizontal progression, something wow has almost entirely rejected.
    Exactly, so WoW is not the game where you get horizontal progression and is a different game and it's not about it either the same way that OSRS is not about fast phased fluid combat. It's combat system can't be regarded as "wrong" if that is the design intent. It might not be enjoyable, but it's up to devs to monitor how players react to it and ratio on what they gain and what they loose by having something in-game.

  9. #89
    Im almost sure at this point in time Blizzard wants us to "give feedback" in order to keep people engaged in content.
    In fact, content patches are mostly now from player feedback.

    So it is even a "feature" at this point in time.

    People keep talking > Blizzard makes content patch from player feedback > People keep talking EVEN MORE since it worked the first time

    Endless cycle of player engagement

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiradon View Post
    Yeah it's fine, I'm really hoping they save some specs in 9.0.5 otherwise it's a bit of a mess.

    I'm expecting them to release the patch and hold the raid hostage for a few weeks to time gate it a bit
    Same here. I am waiting for tweaks and fixes still. Hopefully they will get some extra resources and catch up in the development cycle for 9.2 because I believe that under normal circumstances they would start working on it soonish.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    "people hate this system" is valid infomration.
    its not
    "people" in this cas might cover anything from 50 to 500000, also even if it was universaly hated (its not) people hate it for DIFFERENT reasons, so unles you tell them what is yours reason to hate system the "i hate it" is pointless

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiradon View Post
    Honestly after seeing a bunch of photoshop with 3d models on it showing the new zone alongside 1 screenshot.. How can we not be critical? Especially when a few days ago they released a 6-month subscription mount plan......... Now we sitting here talking about a patch release in July/August.
    you seem to completely miss the point
    being critical is fine, being overly critical, often without any reason whatsoever, without any specifics just with generic "its shit" is not fine, its actualy completely pointless

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    It's no secret who supports Blizz and who crucifies them with every, single decision; however, I have to wonder...

    have we become overcritical of a 15 year old MMO that continues to get updates? Ultima Online, EverQuest and World of Warcraft have been around for a long while and still have a large and dedicated fanbase, yet other MMOs like Aion, LotRO, Warhammer, Age of Conan, and even Guild Wars 2 all set out to dethrone the long standing favorites and eventually faded into nothingness. What do you suppose prevents some players from just being excited to still have new content and millions of other players?
    Have people become overly critical? Yes. BUT at the same time Blizzard, and most "Once Great" companies have really let their "core values" fall through the cracks over the years. Not just in game design but in philosophy and where they take a stance. That whole thing with Blitzchung proved that one of their Virtues "Every Voice Matters" which was a core fundamental of the company, is only upheld in the West/places where they will lose money unless they silence dissidents. "Commit to Quality" also fell off over the years and has at times shown its head but all of BFA pretty much shot that one in the foot as well. They also seem to struggle with "Learn and Grow" they've gotten better at it but half of their stance on why certain things are the way they are in WoW is "Well this is how WE want you to play" "We don't want "degenerate gameplay" etc etc. "Lets take away Master Loot and the ability to trade loot if its an "item level upgrade" (even if you don't need it) and make everything personal because we don't trust you people to be social, responsible adults capable of making your own decisions."

    There are lots of examples of Blizzard's failings over the years but they're not the absolute worst company and as you said, their game is the most popular MMO for a reason. But there is a reason why the community has gotten cynical, even if it does go a bit far sometimes.
    Last edited by Nuggsy; 2021-02-25 at 12:27 PM.
    "Honor, young heroes. No matter how dire the battle, never forsake it."
    Varok Saurfang

  13. #93
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    My point about destiny wasn’t content, my point was that destiny does a lot of things right that wow does wrong. Destiny is mainly based on horizontal progression, something wow has almost entirely rejected.
    Guess I'll be defending WoW today. Oh boy. If you prefer horizontal progression than a game not doing that and never showing any inclination to use it is not a flaw of the game. That is a deliberate design choice. What a flaw is if they do linear progression wrong. Like giving you the illusion of choice despite having obviously correct choices. Or having empty levels where you aren't given anything. Or not having enough abilities to work with on lower levels. That sort of thing.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Exactly, so WoW is not the game where you get horizontal progression and is a different game and it's not about it either the same way that OSRS is not about fast phased fluid combat. It's combat system can't be regarded as "wrong" if that is the design intent. It might not be enjoyable, but it's up to devs to monitor how players react to it and ratio on what they gain and what they loose by having something in-game.
    But it is the case that wow has reached a point where it does only one thing better than other games: challenging large group content. It does literally everything else more poorly than it’s alternatives, when it uses to be the clear, no contest king of the hill.

    The question here is why the game has degraded to this point, because the truth is not that the alternatives came out and were better. The truth is that wow got worse in all other aspects.

    I think blizzard is just tone deaf and trying to please everyone at the same time, resulting in a lackluster and watered down product. There’s no vision. There’s no heart. It all wreaks of focus-group testing and obsessive feedback influence. It’s like they are constantly in PR cleanup mode and desperate not to offend anyone.

    Classic is the clear example of this. They told us nobody wanted it. They clearly thought it would have a fraction of the players it ended up having. Even a year and a half on the servers are still very healthy, and if you watch blizzcon you’ll notice more resources were put into showcasing BC than the next SL patch. Watch the panels and Q&A. The retail stuff feels like apology videos, while the BC stuff feels like people excited for what they are making and willing to do things that will upset some people if it’s best for the game.

    Whether you like classic or not, the difference in attitude and tone was dramatic.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    O god no.

    Constructive criticism makes an observation, understands the context, notes why XYZ isn't optimal, and offers 1 or more solutions that respect the context.
    Actually Blizzard has said many times that they don't like the players offering solutions, Blizzard has said several times that they the players to give feedback in the form of "how-stuff-feels".
    For example: "Aimed shot sucks donkey balls, because the cast time is so long!" would be feedback that Blizzard would like.

    So although you are right that criticism should be formulated somewhat articulate then for Blizzard it would still be valuable feedback if a lot of people would write that "Aimed shot sucks donkey balls and is clunky as fuck."

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Guess I'll be defending WoW today. Oh boy. If you prefer horizontal progression than a game not doing that and never showing any inclination to use it is not a flaw of the game. That is a deliberate design choice. What a flaw is if they do linear progression wrong. Like giving you the illusion of choice despite having obviously correct choices. Or having empty levels where you aren't given anything. Or not having enough abilities to work with on lower levels. That sort of thing.
    Except the game did have some solid horizontal progression before. Needing to collect lots of gear of the same level because you might need to mix up your stats is horizontal progression. You used to want to do that to balance stats like hit. There used to be legitimate reasons to keep some gear around for special effects that were useful in some instances. Was this a massive horizontal progression system? No, but it was certainly more than “bigger ilvl auto equip”.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Not overly critical - just overly meaningless criticisms.

    Whinging that your car has four wheels, or whinging your automatic car doesn't a clutch is the level of 'critical' these days on WoW.

    Most whinging comes from complete ignorance.

    What is actually lacking is constructive, informed criticism - that's a rare beast indeed.
    The issue is Blizzard very often shows the are ignorant of their own customers and things like lore(wow has sooooooo many retcons and rewrittings).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiradon View Post
    Honestly after seeing a bunch of photoshop with 3d models on it showing the new zone alongside 1 screenshot.. How can we not be critical? Especially when a few days ago they released a 6-month subscription mount plan......... Now we sitting here talking about a patch release in July/August.
    very thru i guess they expect classic to continue caring retail on its shoulders.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Classic is the clear example of this. They told us nobody wanted it. They clearly thought it would have a fraction of the players it ended up having. Even a year and a half on the servers are still very healthy, and if you watch blizzcon you’ll notice more resources were put into showcasing BC than the next SL patch. Watch the panels and Q&A. The retail stuff feels like apology videos, while the BC stuff feels like people excited for what they are making and willing to do things that will upset some people if it’s best for the game.

    Whether you like classic or not, the difference in attitude and tone was dramatic.
    Next patch is early in development, that was obvious, that's why classic and tbc had more specific details, can't see how you can come to conclusion that one is better than another one by what was said in the blizconline, not you can make make statements about health of classic servers, as we don't have statistics on amount of players on realms.
    It's quite obvious that both, retail and classic are standalone successful games and even if retail is behind the schedule due to whatever it still pumps out a lot of content in 2 year cycle in comparison to any other RPG.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Next patch is early in development, that was obvious, that's why classic and tbc had more specific details, can't see how you can come to conclusion that one is better than another one by what was said in the blizconline, not you can make make statements about health of classic servers, as we don't have statistics on amount of players on realms.
    It's quite obvious that both, retail and classic are standalone successful games and even if retail is behind the schedule due to whatever it still pumps out a lot of content in 2 year cycle in comparison to any other RPG.
    The next patch being in early development this long into the expansion indicates a problem, a serious problem.

    Wow does not pump out as much content as you think it does. It does a better job of making you repeat content, but there’s not as much content there as you are acting like there is.

    The servers have population indicators on them. This isn’t rocket science.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #100
    I agree everything must be balanced even criticism, sometimes fans can kill a whole franchise, look what happened with dawn of war 3, it was bad, but the fans did actually criticized it more than what it deserved, and now the franchise is dead, and I think the same happened with Warcraft reforged.

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