Have We Become Overly Critical?

[NineSpine]

It did, though. My post clearly read as " 8 man raids make FF14 a bad MMO " whereas your takeaway seemed to be that I was saying it's not an MMO at all. Which was not what I was saying.

Yet you attacked that, hence strawman.

That's not what you said.

[LedZeppelin]

Yes. Like 4 expansions ago. People pay 15 dollars and think they should sit on the board of directors

[Elkfingers]

It did, though. My post clearly read as " 8 man raids make FF14 a bad MMO " whereas your takeaway seemed to be that I was saying it's not an MMO at all. Which was not what I was saying.

Yet you attacked that, hence strawman.

Ok fuck it I'll bite. We already covered the the M in MMO doesn't refer to instance size, so let's rephrase. How exactly does the size of an instance specifically impact on the quality of an MMO? What's the relevance? How do we determine the optimal instance size? What are the lower and upper bounds? If 8 is too small, why is 20 just right? Why not 23?

Putting aside the fact that you could have taken the spirit of what I said, which is ultimately that the specific size of an instance is nothing more than your preference and is not in fact a characteristic which inheres in MMO quality, what exactly is the specific impact on quality that an arbitrarily assigned number of players per instance is supposed to have?

[Tumile]

It's no secret who supports Blizz and who crucifies them with every, single decision; however, I have to wonder...

have we become overcritical of a 15 year old MMO that continues to get updates? Ultima Online, EverQuest and World of Warcraft have been around for a long while and still have a large and dedicated fanbase, yet other MMOs like Aion, LotRO, Warhammer, Age of Conan, and even Guild Wars 2 all set out to dethrone the long standing favorites and eventually faded into nothingness. What do you suppose prevents some players from just being excited to still have new content and millions of other players?

no competent game has ever challenged wows gameplay. the detailed tab target combat system has a shit ton of depth, and the people who copied it didnt have any depth, SWTOR, Rift, even Warhammer,

Other games like GW2 etc arent in direct competition, they may be the same genre, but its like comparing Counter Strike to Quake, both First person shooters, but have very little in common other than that.

they not only charge a monthly sub, but also does a lot of scummy MTX shizzle on top, we should be critical of the product we pay for

[Myradin]

No. Quality in game design just decreased and WoW is lacking fresh, innovative features for half a decade now. The most innovative thing they brought into this game were artifact weapons (which are in a different iteration still part of the game) and island expeditions, of which the latter flopped hard (although they're still around in the form of Torghast).

WoW is just... more of the same. Which isn't necessarily bad, but there needs to be new and exciting additions to the game on top of just always the same.

To be fair, everything they try to add ends up being removed eventually.

TBC had flight which they've half-removed from the game.

Wrath had vehicles which were generally hated. Blizz has since kept their usage very limited and even removed a BG that used them heavily.

Islands and Torghast are just more iteration on MoP's scenarios, which never seem to be received well by the community.

Artifact Weapons were just the Path of the Titans feature that people begged blizz to finally implement for ages. Now the community's pulled a 180 and considers it horrible.

The community asks for more content, so blizz adds more content, then the community complains that it has to do things so they don't. Notice how the expansions practically alternate between high daily requirements and low one ones.

Content in wow is either relevant (provides upgrades, and is thus MANDITORY by the community), irrelevant (and thus bad), or cosmetic. Players demand rewards for everything, but then get mad that they're 'forced' to do things for the reward because rewards are useful.

I can see why the dev's don't feel terribly ambitious. They have over a decade of data of the community never being happy with anything that isn't BG's and Raids, with even mythic+ a mode to make dungeons slightly more relevant, getting the community all worked up too. Why put any effort into a new feature that the community's just going to hate on.

[LiteTheWay]

In other news, fire is hot and water is wet.

Is water actually wet though? Or does it make things wet?

[NineSpine]

To be fair, everything they try to add ends up being removed eventually.

TBC had flight which they've half-removed from the game.

Wrath had vehicles which were generally hated. Blizz has since kept their usage very limited and even removed a BG that used them heavily.

Islands and Torghast are just more iteration on MoP's scenarios, which never seem to be received well by the community.

Artifact Weapons were just the Path of the Titans feature that people begged blizz to finally implement for ages. Now the community's pulled a 180 and considers it horrible.

The community asks for more content, so blizz adds more content, then the community complains that it has to do things so they don't. Notice how the expansions practically alternate between high daily requirements and low one ones.

Content in wow is either relevant (provides upgrades, and is thus MANDITORY by the community), irrelevant (and thus bad), or cosmetic. Players demand rewards for everything, but then get mad that they're 'forced' to do things for the reward because rewards are useful.

I can see why the dev's don't feel terribly ambitious. They have over a decade of data of the community never being happy with anything that isn't BG's and Raids, with even mythic+ a mode to make dungeons slightly more relevant, getting the community all worked up too. Why put any effort into a new feature that the community's just going to hate on.

I think you are missing the forest for the trees a little bit.

The community broadly seems to want something, Blizzard implements a bad version of it, the community doesn't like it, Blizzard reverses it.

That's what is actually happening. These endgame progression systems for three expansions have been *bad*. People wanted types of horizontal progression, and none of these systems have really offered that. Instead, they've offered incremental power gains wrapped in very convoluted system management. People want to unlock things that add to their gameplay, not minutely increment their output. We already have a system for increasing output. It's called gear.

Torghast is a great example. A roguelite mode sounds like a lot of fun.... but they didn't make a roguelite mode. The point of a roguelite is to push as far as possible before dying while acquiring temporary powers along the way, and then unlock permanent meta-upgrades that allow you to push further.

Torghast fails that on every level. It's not about pushing as far as possible, it's about finishing a run. You don't unlock interesting temporary powers. They are mostly trivial or just flat power increases, and they don't really coalesce into game-changing builds very often. The meta-upgrades are weak and not even acquired by doing Torghast.

Players found the idea of a roguelite super interesting, instead we got the aesthetics of a roguelite without the substance of one.

[SirBeef]

Devs cant fix everything. Most hated feature is important to know for what needs to be fixed first. A priority list is elementary. Fucking ironic that you would complain about brain use.

Again just saying you hate the system offers no clues as to why it's hated. So that priority list would contain one item. Fix the system.

Seriously. If you think because people say something is bad but offer no reason as to why it's bad, is good enough feedback, I wonder how you actually resolve any issues you come across.

Likewise, sytem sucks because it's boring doesn't offer much guidance either. Feedback needs to be specific and concise. Example. I don't like the covenant upgrade system, it takes too long to acquire anima unless I grind it out and do every WQ or activity that provides it daily. As someone with limited time to play, I feel the upgrades take too long, so increasing anima drops or reducing the costs would make the system better.

Would you, as a dev, rather have what I just said or fix the covenants, they suck?

Because you argued they'd should be able to interpret from the second option everything in my first option.

[NineSpine]

Again just saying you hate the system offers no clues as to why it's hated. So that priority list would contain one item. Fix the system.

Seriously. If you think because people say something is bad but offer no reason as to why it's bad, is good enough feedback, I wonder how you actually resolve any issues you come across.

Likewise, sytem sucks because it's boring doesn't offer much guidance either. Feedback needs to be specific and concise. Example. I don't like the covenant upgrade system, it takes too long to acquire anima unless I grind it out and do every WQ or activity that provides it daily. As someone with limited time to play, I feel the upgrades take too long, so increasing anima drops or reducing the costs would make the system better.

Would you, as a dev, rather have what I just said or fix the covenants, they suck?

Because you argued they'd should be able to interpret from the second option everything in my first option.

Having been a game designer, I can answer this: I'd prefer that you just tell me what you don't like and why. I don't care what solutions you offer, because you are a player and not a designer. In fact, if a player suggests a solution, I am more likely to look poorly on that solution, because if players want it it is probably a bad idea.

Players are bad designers.

[breadisfunny]

All criticism is constructive criticism. There is nothing wrong with providing feedback.

it depends entirely on how you phrase. lacing your criticism with casual swear words and personal attacks towards the developer/company is when it ceases to be constructive and is just a rant.

[SirBeef]

No, not overly critical. People just don't know how to convey their criticism, which leads to the devs ignoring whatever passes as "crying" instead of actual feedback.

Because it is crying and not feedback at that point. The game sucks isn't feedback no matter much some may think. If you are trying to submit feedback players need to first remove emotion from their argument. Next they need to answer three questions, what is the issue? How or why doe this issue effect me negatively? And What would I change to make it better?

It's that simple. If somone is spewing verbal diarrhea at me vs someone saying what they don't like, why they don't like it, and what they would change to make it better, then I'm ignoring the riddle shitting his pants and talking to the adult quite frankly.

I know many here will disagree and take some cavalier stance that the devs eed to be put in their place from time to time. I'll tell you you have a better job of doing it by laying out your argument in a calm concise manner.

[Argorwal]

Which fact needs statistics to back it up?

Classic is for a largely different audience than retail, so people aren’t going to “move over”. If you like the design of retail, you probably don’t want to play an MMO and classic is very much an MMO.

Is classic an MMO in the sense that a massive amount of people log off and wait for discord timers to zone in at once to Org/SW for a buff and log off until raid?

Because that has been my classic experience for the last year or so.

[NineSpine]

Because it is crying and not feedback at that point. The game sucks isn't feedback no matter much some may think. If you are trying to submit feedback players need to first remove emotion from their argument. Next they need to answer three questions, what is the issue? How or why doe this issue effect me negatively? And What would I change to make it better?

It's that simple. If somone is spewing verbal diarrhea at me vs someone saying what they don't like, why they don't like it, and what they would change to make it better, then I'm ignoring the riddle shitting his pants and talking to the adult quite frankly.

I know many here will disagree and take some cavalier stance that the devs eed to be put in their place from time to time. I'll tell you you have a better job of doing it by laying out your argument in a calm concise manner.

No, that last question is bad. Players should not be suggesting solutions to design problems. And designers should not be listening to player solutions.

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Is classic an MMO in the sense that a massive amount of people log off and wait for discord timers to zone in at once to Org/SW for a buff and log off until raid?

Because that has been my classic experience for the last year or so.

My experience has been logging in every day to do lots of things between raids like farm or do BGs. It's almost like classic facilitates lots of different playstyles and doesnt funnel every player into the same style of play.

World buffs are certainly a disaster though.

[SirBeef]

Having been a game designer, I can answer this: I'd prefer that you just tell me what you don't like and why. I don't care what solutions you offer, because you are a player and not a designer. In fact, if a player suggests a solution, I am more likely to look poorly on that solution, because if players want it it is probably a bad idea.

Players are bad designers.

I get that but just because a player suggests something doesn't mean it's a bad idea. And it is not impossible for somone to have an idea no one on the dev team thought of before. I've read countless stories from Devs throughout the years staring that an idea or change came from the community.

[NineSpine]

I get that but just because a player suggests something doesn't mean it's a bad idea. And it is not impossible for somone to have an idea no one on the dev team thought of before. I've read countless stories from Devs throughout the years staring that an idea or change came from the community.

While an argument can be made for really competitive e-sports types of games having player input like that, in general it is the job of a designer to do something you couldn't imagine, not to take your wishlist and make it reality.

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I get that but just because a player suggests something doesn't mean it's a bad idea. And it is not impossible for somone to have an idea no one on the dev team thought of before. I've read countless stories from Devs throughout the years staring that an idea or change came from the community.

I think I can phrase this a good way actually:

Players want less bad feelings and more good feelings, but the bad feelings are what give the good feelings value. Dying feels bad, but completing something that could have killed you feels good.

Player input is almost universally about shifting that balance toward more good and less bad, but that's usually not a great idea. WoW has a serious problem of trying to mitigate the bad feeling too much. Everything is softened and all edges are rounded. The penalties are virtually non-existent in most content. Nothing feels like it has any value as a result. Everything feels transient, like a mobile game.

[Argorwal]

No, that last question is bad. Players should not be suggesting solutions to design problems. And designers should not be listening to player solutions.

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My experience has been logging in every day to do lots of things between raids like farm or do BGs. It's almost like classic facilitates lots of different playstyles and doesnt funnel every player into the same style of play.

World buffs are certainly a disaster though.

Farming for consumables and BGs have existed in every iteration of the game. They aren’t some classic unique aspects.

[NineSpine]

Farming for consumables and BGs have existed in every iteration of the game. They aren’t some classic unique aspects.

Well, I'm glad you made that point to whoever claimed the game doesnt have BGs and farming anymore, but I don't know who that is

[Alanar]

Sure, some swallow all the stuff they add and some are critical.

My opinion is that we still pay a montly fee, while other mmo are free with better grphics, alot more costumization and just silly options that wow still doesnt have and most are just ftp.

I think there isnt a right anwser to this since opinions, but I think we should be critical. Keeping the company sharp and hopefully they react what the community actually wants.

They fail on both these days, they seem like a different company that just lacks overral vision or goal.

[NineSpine]

Sure, some swallow all the stuff they add and some are critical.

My opinion is that we still pay a montly fee, while other mmo are free with better grphics, alot more costumization and just silly options that wow still doesnt have and most are just ftp.

I think there isnt a right anwser to this since opinions, but I think we should be critical. Keeping the company sharp and hopefully they react what the community actually wants.

They fail on both these days, they seem like a different company that just lacks overral vision or goal.

They've been giving the community what they want for years and it has made the game worse.

[Argorwal]

Well, I'm glad you made that point to whoever claimed the game doesnt have BGs and farming anymore, but I don't know who that is

Considering those were your 2 explicit examples of how classic facilitates many play styles and retail doesn’t...