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  1. #1

    Elements - the weakest or the strongest force?



    The elements are the only ones without their own fully-fledged cosmic force to represent them. It would seem that they are a neglectable force on the cosmic chart, in comparison with the other forces.
    But, what if the elements are, actually, pretty significant?
    If you look closely, every one of the elements have a foothold near one of the cosmic forces:
    Fire seems to be intertwined with Fel and Disorder.
    Air seems to be between Disorder (Fel) and Death (Necromancy).
    Decay is intertwined with Death.
    Earth is intertwined with Arcane and Order.
    Water is between Order (Arcane) and Life (Nature).
    And Spirit is intertwined with Nature and Life.
    The only place the elements do not seem to have a foothold is the Light and the Void (unless we consider Earth and Decay in between the Void and Spirit and Fire in between Light - which, would make some sense as Old Gods are locked beneath the earth and are associated with decay, while the Light is both spiritual and a 'righteous fire').
    Moreover, nothing opposes them, on the cosmic chart, except for themselves.

    If we take all of this into consideration then, that would mean Shamans are, actually, quite strong, as they use a little bit of every cosmic force, while others classes are, mostly, drawing their powers from one cosmic force.

    What do you, guys, think about this take of the cosmic chart?
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-02-25 at 04:24 PM.

  2. #2
    I think it is an interesting concept but I think it would level out as while Shamans might wield a bit of every cosmic force it is most prob such a small amount that is brings them on the same level as someone wielding a fuller cosmic force like druids and nature as they are kind of a jack of all trades master of none. Maybe only if they purely mastered that one element then they could delver into the wider cosmic forces it is linked to.

  3. #3
    I think it's size relative. Forces physically would larger and generally have more magical mass the further out on the chart you go.

    If it was inverted, than forces like The Light wouldn't be infinite - instead it would be one of the smallest forces. I think huge cosmic concepts and idea like 'faith' are meant to be far larger and greater than 'rocks'.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post


    The elements are the only ones without their own fully-fledged cosmic force to represent them. It would seem that they are a neglectable force on the cosmic chart, in comparison with the other forces.
    But, what if the elements are, actually, pretty significant?
    If you look closely, every one of the elements have a foothold near one of the cosmic forces:
    Fire seems to be intertwined with Fel and Disorder.
    Air seems to be between Disorder (Fel) and Death (Necromancy).
    Decay is intertwined with Death.
    Earth is intertwined with Arcane and Order.
    Water is between Order (Arcane) and Life (Nature).
    And Spirit is intertwined with Nature and Life.
    The only place the elements do not seem to have a foothold is the Light and the Void (unless we consider Earth and Decay in between the Void and Spirit and Fire in between Light - which, would make some sense as Old Gods are locked beneath the earth and are associated with decay, while the Light is both spiritual and a 'righteous fire').
    Moreover, nothing opposes them, on the cosmic chart, except for themselves.

    If we take all of this into consideration then, that would mean Shamans are, actually, quite strong, as they use a little bit of every cosmic force, while others classes are, mostly, drawing their powers from one cosmic force.

    What do you, guys, think about this take of the cosmic chart?
    I think WoW's elementals have been grossly abused, having been cajoled around by these "cosmic" forces when clearly, as foundations of the material plane they deserve recognition and power above all others.
    #ElementalSupremacy

    But more seriously: yeah they're hella strong, as Draenor hinted at it's mostly a disconcerted effort of various cosmic forces fucking about on Azeroth that kept them from literally being all that matters on such a planet.

    And hell even Draenor was not completely untouched by the cosmic forces.
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  5. #5
    Im behind with lore a little but didn't Murmur was strong enough to destroy planets?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    Im behind with lore a little but didn't Murmur was strong enough to destroy planets?
    Yup. Elements are odd in that they really vary. Draenor's elements were much weaker than Azeroth's, for example. And then there is fucking Murmur, the embodiment of sound, able to erase worlds with a whisper. Even a Void Lord had trouble devouring a planet. Elementals don't 'channel' the magic of other realms like beings of Light, Void, or Arcane do. They ARE their magic, and the Great Dark Beyond that Azeroth exists in, the mundane reality at the center of the cosmic chart, are made up of these elements. If there is enough elemental power in a planet, that planet's elements become more intelligent and powerful. Murmur's existence implies that the universe as a whole might have it's own elemental lords, who could possibly be the strongest beings in the Great Dark Beyond. Even if Void Lords or First Ones or whatever are stronger, they aren't on their home turf like a theoretical cosmic elemental.

  7. #7
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    I hate that chart.

    According to Metzen lore, the Light was presented as an omnipotent Judeo-Christian god-like being. Nothing else could have stood up to the light.

    Discounting the Light? The Fel is the strongest element due to the number of worlds they ruined, characters killed, and impact on the plot. Way stronger than the Void. The new lore hypes up the Void as the greatest threat, but it never feels like it because we routinely smack down old gods and their tentacle minions.

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  8. #8
    They took away Doomhammer from Thrall so that makes them pretty powerful to me.

  9. #9
    No force is stronger than the other.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    They took away Doomhammer from Thrall so that makes them pretty powerful to me.
    Other Cosmic powers can do the exact same thing to their wielders.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I hate that chart.

    According to Metzen lore, the Light was presented as an omnipotent Judeo-Christian god-like being. Nothing else could have stood up to the light.

    Discounting the Light? The Fel is the strongest element due to the number of worlds they ruined, characters killed, and impact on the plot. Way stronger than the Void. The new lore hypes up the Void as the greatest threat, but it never feels like it because we routinely smack down old gods and their tentacle minions.
    The Titans are apparently Omnipotent, yet they fell.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Or, at the very least, they were stated to be "all powerful". Omnipotence can also be a word used for the Titans, considering they could do whatever tf they wanted across reality and their realm. Oribos and the Arbiter in turn have been flat out stated to be Omniscient.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Grimoire states Oribos has "boundless knowledge", which basically means omniscient, as Omniscience means all knowing. And whatever the Arbiter knows, Oribos knows.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    Im behind with lore a little but didn't Murmur was strong enough to destroy planets?
    Lots of guys can.

    But yes, he did. He's a Cosmic Elemental.

  10. #10
    That entire chart is a load of weeabo fanfic that inexplicably became cannon in one of the worst decisions that the lore team has ever made. But I guess when a game is nearly 2 decades old you start running out of ideas and have to go scraping the bottom of the barrel for things like "void lords".

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I hate that chart.

    According to Metzen lore, the Light was presented as an omnipotent Judeo-Christian god-like being. Nothing else could have stood up to the light.

    Discounting the Light? The Fel is the strongest element due to the number of worlds they ruined, characters killed, and impact on the plot. Way stronger than the Void. The new lore hypes up the Void as the greatest threat, but it never feels like it because we routinely smack down old gods and their tentacle minions.
    Yeah the cosmology kind of just reduces the cosmic forces into a copy-paste of Warhammer's winds of magic. It's white magic, blue magic, green magic, purple magic, black magic all over again. It sucks.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    Im behind with lore a little but didn't Murmur was strong enough to destroy planets?
    Yes. The question is - what element does he belong to? Air?

    The thing that bothers me is that they assigned every spell school a cosmic force of its own, yet the elements were scattered into these little, insignificant forces around the map.
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  13. #13
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    The way I see it, the cosmic forces are like the electromagnetic and nuclear forces in physics: they are very powerful on their own, but they may cancel each other, so the result is more or less stable overall, while the elements are like gravity: quite weak on its own, but since it is always additive, it may have a much bigger effect. At least as far as mortals are concerned.
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  14. #14
    Pretty sure that chart is no longer 100% accurate, given that Shadowlands is distinct from the realm of death. The important thing to remember with elementals are that they're physical beings, like trolls or pandaren, so they don't naturally have their own realms. The Titans created the elemental realms around Azeroth and banished them their. Also, Azeroth has no spirit energy left to it since the world soul ate it all. Thus, as a cosmology, the elemental planes' being insignificant makes sense, since they're these small shard planes made by the titans (and only around Azeroth from what we've seen). That doesn't make them any less significant than old gods or naaru, just because they don't have some giant representative realm on the cosmic chart. Let's not forget that characters like Arthas, Gul'dan, Malfurion, etc. were selected by these cosmic forces to do their work because the cosmic forces couldn't even accomplish their aims on their own.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    I have always regarded the elements as the weakest link among the forces available to players (still pretty powerful still, though). The logic behind my reasoning is that elementals were pawns of the old gods and they got themselves locked up in pocket dimensions. They can manifest in Azeroth as avatars.

    What do the other powers do? We got classes capable of wielding death (dks), light (palas, holy priests), fel (locks), arcane (mages), even void (again priests). Probably more I am forgetting. In comparison to this, elements are just hobbies.

    Also I am not sure if nature = life, because nature is often linked also to destructive force and to the Dream, so maybe resto druids tap into the life aspect of nature? If so, I would put nature above elements. If not, elements = nature imo.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    Im behind with lore a little but didn't Murmur was strong enough to destroy planets?
    Indeed, the very fabric of reality itself.

    All hail Murmur, easily the most powerful creature in Warcraft due to them accidentally touching upon the most ridiculous powers-comparison to ever grace fiction: That of conceptuals.

    Think of them as arch-elementals, except literally and directly intertwined with that of which they are a manifestation of.
    So to truly kill Murmur would be to kill sound itself.

    Neither the void's whispers nor the light's chimes would be able to even exist without Murmur's might.


    ALL HAIL MURMUR!!!
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    That entire chart is a load of weeabo fanfic that inexplicably became cannon in one of the worst decisions that the lore team has ever made. But I guess when a game is nearly 2 decades old you start running out of ideas and have to go scraping the bottom of the barrel for things like "void lords".
    It really did just break WoW's lore the moment it got introduced, hey?

    When Chronicles first got announced, I was excited to get it. I got it, read it, and was left feeling "oh no" as a primary emotion.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    What do the other powers do? We got classes capable of wielding death (dks), light (palas, holy priests), fel (locks), arcane (mages), even void (again priests). Probably more I am forgetting. In comparison to this, elements are just hobbies.
    Hobbies?
    What about Shamans (and monks, to some extent)?
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    Thank you in advance.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Yes. The question is - what element does he belong to? Air?

    The thing that bothers me is that they assigned every spell school a cosmic force of its own, yet the elements were scattered into these little, insignificant forces around the map.
    Yes, Murmur is a huge air elemental.

    Well, the elements are sort of a single force (Together, they are the building blocks of the WoW universe), but the elemental spirits are constantly fighting each other, the elements would be a hugely powerful force, if only they'd stop in-fighting all the time.

  20. #20
    Just like all the pieces in WoW's Lore, they are precisely as strong or as weak as the plot and the writers need them to be at a specific point in time.

    Expecting consistency is ill-advised.

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