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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I think its an important distinction to make, as most are aware self healing tanks, such as DK, certainly take a lot of damage, and it can be in pretty big spikes, however they also heal back a substantial amount of said spike damage. This is how you can tell a good DK from a shit one - one will just spam DS whenever they can, and one will pool and hold to use it on said big attack. To be fair, im obviously not saying they sit capped, but the planning and resource management is an important part of the spec.
    There is no TANK balance with player skill involved, otherwise the active tank mitigation with DK tanks would have to make them the best tanks by default.

    Look at BFA, monks had so much PASSIVE MITITGATION that a disconnected monk tank in a higher m+ key would cause issues, because they would not die - with ~90% passive mitigation.

    We just had a whole expension with that ridiculous difference in tanking and you dare to claim that PLAYER SKILL involved in tanking is the deciding factor if a tank spec is good or bad? Ridiculous!

    Blizzard at some point wanted to make tanking more active (read: player skill more impactfull), they used the DeathKnight as a guinea pig but the other tanking specs were never really changed that much into the active direction.

    Its just bad tanking balance and that the most demanding (read: active) tank spec got one of the worst tank dps and tank mitigation is not even the outlier in balancing. It happens with healing and dps roles aswell, because blizzard DEVs dont play most classes in the game and simply dont even understand the issues player see in the game.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    We just had a whole expension with that ridiculous difference in tanking and you dare to claim that PLAYER SKILL involved in tanking is the deciding factor if a tank spec is good or bad? Ridiculous!
    You are so utterly confused i really don't know where to start - and you are SO confident in what you are saying! How DARE i suggest that a skilled DK will time their DS to maximize healing and reduce healing required - HOW DARE I SAY THAT!. Honestly, you are just confused. Very, VERY confused.

    And fyi, the reason BRM will sometimes take a while to die is that stagger cannot kill you (unless they changed it) but any single other hit will.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-03-30 at 06:22 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    While in raids the difference in tanks matters much less the main reasons a progression guild brings certain classes is for thier buffs, its very important for early progression especially when some classes actually need gear to be useful or require to be fixed so the class is not useless, so your the one actually being naive.
    Read my later response then xd i didnt talk about what they offer buff wise, i referred to their cooldowns as a spec, and indeed they werent brought to WF for that, any tank is enough, but their dps counterparts were dogshit so the solution was vdh + prot warr.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Read my later response then xd i didnt talk about what they offer buff wise, i referred to their cooldowns as a spec, and indeed they werent brought to WF for that, any tank is enough, but their dps counterparts were dogshit so the solution was vdh + prot warr.
    While i agree most tanks can get away with doing mythic content, in WF progression the only reason a warr is in the group is to cover the buff as the dps warr was not suitable, 1 warrior spot is essential in the raid and with how bad the dps version was a tank is the only way to bring the buffs.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    While i agree most tanks can get away with doing mythic content, in WF progression the only reason a warr is in the group is to cover the buff as the dps warr was not suitable, 1 warrior spot is essential in the raid and with how bad the dps version was a tank is the only way to bring the buffs.
    pretty sure limit had an arms warrior. rallying cry is just that good

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    pretty sure limit had an arms warrior. rallying cry is just that good
    Thats why i said a warr buff is essential so there was only 2 options, best would of been having the warrior tank so a more effective dps could be brought but the dps difference should only be small anyway even though warr was not great to begin with, many fights in CN are not great for mellee to start with.
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  7. #27
    DKs are still spiky, but only squishy if there is an endless barrage of spikes, because they will eventually run out of Runic Power to heal. So fights like Sludgefist and Denathrius last phase might be tough since both do very hard melee hits. And in M+ there is the same risk, you might just get hit so hard so fast you can't outheal it. On top of that you have an issue whenever mobility is needed. There was some buffing a few weeks ago, so it might be better now, but when I was playing DK at the start of the expansion it was quite miserable.

    Paladins are very strong as long as they got their shield up, during downtime they might just get globaled in M+ and probably in Mythic Raids too. But I have seen a Pala doing fine in 16 and 17 keys, so with skillful use of CDs they can work fine.

    Warriors have been insanely buffed in 9.05, giving them upwards of 80% shield block uptime which is insane, plus they deal really good AOE damage, but that is likely not too interesting in Mythic Raids. I am pretty convinced they will kick DH off their pedestal for M+ in 9.1. though.

    Druid is very strong atm, probaby the strongest Tank in mitigating Physical Damage, by spamming Ironfurs. Plus lots of Utility, just not great in the speed department.

    Vengeance DH we will have to see. It's loosing a lot of passive Magic Damage reduction today but it keeps all of it's tools. But it's still pretty squishy outside of CDs. It's greatest value is in grabbing aggro quickly and then running away, which will not work in raids.

    Monks are still a very strong Tank for Raiding. Stagger makes Boss hits manageable, but different from Druids they do not directly mitigate Physical Damage, they just aren't going to take spikes, you will need to be healed since self-healing is pretty bad here (you have a passive that will increase incoming heals though). It's not as invincible as in BFA but very strong still.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You genuinely think dh tank and warr tank was brought to world first race cause of their cooldowns?
    Basically yes, you brought veng dh for mystic brand cuz havoc was weak (all BFA you brought a havoc instead) and then you either brought warrior for battle shout or monk for mystic touch. However since windwalkers proved to be better than expected in Nathria, brewmaster wasn't as mandatory. Meanwhile dps warriors and especially dhs were sub par, while you still need the goddamn buff.

    It's a stupid design where only 1 class brings a buff, and only specific classes do so. So for example you can have 0 rogues but you need 1 dh / monk / warr.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Did you see Havoc at the start of the xpac? It wasn't viable at all, VDH was absolutely brought just for the debuff and would have been used even if they where the worst tank in the game because of this. Havoc was THAT bad and not an option.
    This may be the case with havoc, but in no way is it the reason VDH were in Mythic race. On top of the 5% magic buff, they have
    - an AoE Grip which does wonders on Sun King (Dk utlity)
    - an AOE Fear which is also super useful on sun king (Warr Utility)
    - an Aoe Silence which is just amazeballs on inerva (Pala utlitly)
    - Insane Self Healing (can rival a bear)
    - The best Magic dmg mitigation even with the most recent nerf
    - and solid physical mit
    - Ridiculous mobility

    all in all a DH can do what any other tank can do just as well as they can, but other tanks shine brighter in specific situations, the DH is a great all rounder master of none kind of tank
    Last edited by Tyrilion; 2021-03-31 at 02:26 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrilion View Post
    This may be the case with havoc, but in no way is it the reason VDH were in Mythic race. On top of the 5% magic buff, they have
    - an AoE Grip which does wonders on Sun King (Dk utlity)
    - an AOE Fear which is also super useful on sun king (Warr Utility)
    - an Aoe Silence which is just amazeballs on inerva (Pala utlitly)
    - Insane Self Healing (can rival a bear)
    - The best Magic dmg mitigation even with the most recent nerf
    - and solid physical mit
    - Ridiculous mobility

    all in all a DH can do what any other tank can do just as well as they can, but other tanks shine brighter in specific situations, the DH is a great all rounder master of none kind of tank
    All of this "utility" is literally done better by other tanks, and it's a joke that you think any of it is as valuable at 5% magic damage and worth mentioning. It's hard to take a person serious if they think VDH has better magic mitigation then a prot paladin, literally 0 understanding of tanks. An amazing aoe grip that is a million times worse then DK and absolutely hilarious you think it was needed with necrolord unholy DK stacking. Meh physical mitgation nothing solid about it, worse mobility then a brewmaster and same as a prot war, aoe silence on a min CD when prot paladin can lawlers throw shield and interupt everything on a short cd, "insane self healing" that is somehow worse then brewmaster, blood, and gaurdian.

    I'm sorry you overvalue the spec and don't understand why it is meta, but its literally the 5% magic damage.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2021-03-31 at 03:10 PM.

  11. #31
    I also think it’s different depending on the level. What’s best at very cutting edge can occasionally be something like monk because they won’t die to spikes, but monk is a terrible tank for pugging or just tanking heroic because they take a lot of damage and have low health and limited “oh shit” options when they get hit by a stray missed interrupt.
    Quote Originally Posted by JessicaJones View Post
    i used to put "dun b bad" in desc and bad players would still apply

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You genuinely think dh tank and warr tank was brought to world first race cause of their cooldowns? please tell me you arent this naive.
    LimitMax has been very specific about the strength of Rallying Cry, as well as about how at the start of Shadowlands havoc was wimpy AF, which means you were pretty much left with demon hunter in a tanking role because the debuff was required and putting prot warrior in since they already had an arms warrior and no more melee spots.

    He's super obsessed with the idea of the "perfect comp" though and really any tank is going to be viable within 5 to 10 item levels of the content they are doing, especially in a raid.

    Raid tanking is super easy and requires very little in the way of CD management.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Actually, yes.
    You sure there's no perhaps 5% extra damage a DH let's the casters do that is perhaps more valuable than darkness?

  14. #34
    All tanks are squishy in m+, its all about your cd management and movement.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    All of this "utility" is literally done better by other tanks, and it's a joke that you think any of it is as valuable at 5% magic damage and worth mentioning. It's hard to take a person serious if they think VDH has better magic mitigation then a prot paladin, literally 0 understanding of tanks. An amazing aoe grip that is a million times worse then DK and absolutely hilarious you think it was needed with necrolord unholy DK stacking. Meh physical mitgation nothing solid about it, worse mobility then a brewmaster and same as a prot war, aoe silence on a min CD when prot paladin can lawlers throw shield and interupt everything on a short cd, "insane self healing" that is somehow worse then brewmaster, blood, and gaurdian.

    I'm sorry you overvalue the spec and don't understand why it is meta, but its literally the 5% magic damage.
    Veng mobility is yes worse than monk, but better then prot warrior. Warrior leap is a significantly longer cooldown, doesn't have two charges, and as a mobility tool charge is objectively inferior to leap. Calling Brewmaster healing better than Vengeance is iffy. Brewmaster self healing is largely contingent on external healing via celestial fortune, vengeance self healing is just straight up healing. Really, all the tanks are pretty similar in self healing excepting the two outliers of prot warrior and blood dk. Also, pally shield throw only interrupts the primary target, so maybe YOU should learn tank mechanics before you criticize others for their "ignorance".

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    Veng mobility is yes worse than monk, but better then prot warrior.
    monk is very context dependent. e.g. on denatrius setting up transcendence is straight up inferior to leaps. and the only other fight where mobility is critical, blood council, DHs beat monks too.

    on the other hand, monks save you a lot on repair/food costs!

  17. #37
    Prot pally is the squishiest and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know anything about tanking.


    Having said that, every tank is more than capable of clearing Nathria on mythic. Even with Paladin being the "squishiest" they might actually be the best overall right now with the recent blanket tank buffs. Nathria was not balanced around the recent tank buffs. The insane amount of DPS you can get from prot pally with their glaring weakness being masked by recent tank buffs, Prot paladin is looking very good in CN for the remainder of CN.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike tang 1991 View Post
    Hi,

    What's the "squishiest" tank in mythic raiding ATM ?

    I haven't played since Cata, and back then blood DKs were the "squishiest" (spikiest dmg)... is that still the case ??

    Thanks




    And by "squishy" I mean "spikiest" dmg (takes the most dmg (and requires the most healing (including self heals)))
    To me squishy = dies the most


  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You genuinely think dh tank and warr tank was brought to world first race cause of their cooldowns? please tell me you arent this naive.
    They were there for battle shout and magic debuff. Not cooldowns, but their buffs

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    Veng mobility is yes worse than monk, but better then prot warrior. Warrior leap is a significantly longer cooldown, doesn't have two charges, and as a mobility tool charge is objectively inferior to leap. Calling Brewmaster healing better than Vengeance is iffy. Brewmaster self healing is largely contingent on external healing via celestial fortune, vengeance self healing is just straight up healing. Really, all the tanks are pretty similar in self healing excepting the two outliers of prot warrior and blood dk. Also, pally shield throw only interrupts the primary target, so maybe YOU should learn tank mechanics before you criticize others for their "ignorance".
    Brewmaster self healing is way fucking ahead of VDH in all but the most extreme circumstances. A VDH has to be taking a ridiculous amount of damage to match brewmaster self healing, an amount of damage that is not common at all during optimal play in current tier. Calling it iffy means you don't play both specs lol.

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