This burst has to end.

[dogshtslave]

you have 30k health.. that's like running around naked and expecting to not get 1 shotted lmao

[Drusin]

Wish I had OBS running

Combat log screenshot in the future

[Stickinator]

As a boomkin druid (tho raiding not pvp).
I hate convoke, its such a dumb fucking spell. Wish it was dead. Its just convoke spec now and its boring :/
i am not even allowed to touch feral for the life of me, all i want is to scratch some vamps man....
Want it nerfed to the ground so i can just go and pick something else!

[Tyrannica]

Ret and monk is the only damage currently I'm confused how it has lasted. Rets 100-0ing people in under 1.5 seconds if too many things crit isn't real gameplay. Monks can 100-0 people with fallen order and clones if enough lines up too often.

Damn, i missed those monks, merely just doing rbgs these days, as unfun and time consuming as they are, and wm is sadly turned off, too, due to my locks melee magnetism, barely could walk without pillars of the dark portal and gateway mastery, i wish i had some tournament players around me at all times doing peels and heals and enjoy the great class design and thrilling pvp content the devs provide us and weekly PvP Q&A.

[Rucati]

'Course I play the game, if I didn't I'd have no reason to be commenting.

There's very little RNG to convoke if said Druid/teammates are topped and you've dotted the enemy up. More often than not it's going to tunnel a sizeable portion of Starsurges into the target.

As it is now, it's an iWin button. If you pop it from max range against some poor guy in open world content, it's not like they can line it or kick it. If they are engaged with you and use their kick and a cc ability, you can just wait those out and use it after.

Exaggerating by using your one hour dot example just weakens your defense. You can try to argue semantics all you like, but if a single button press ends up killing someone then it's a one shot.

Very little RNG? The entire spell is RNG, there's a chance they don't cast a single starsurge the entire cast. Just shows you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

So you need max range, with no LoS anywhere near you, against someone who doesn't fight back, and doesn't use any defensive spells. Yeah, it does sound like an iwin button in that incredibly unlikely scenario where your opponent is AFK, good point, you're right.

[Anuibus]

So you need max range, with no LoS anywhere near you, against someone who doesn't fight back, and doesn't use any defensive spells. Yeah, it does sound like an iwin button in that incredibly unlikely scenario where your opponent is AFK, good point, you're right.

Los and max range don't mean anything when a druid can pop out of stealth and instant cast mass entanglement, which you then can't los, interrupt, or fight back and unless you have hard immunity your defensive spells won't actually save you. So yeah, it is an I win button. Stop looking at convoke in a vacuum by itself and excluding a druids entire toolkit.

[Rucati]

Los and max range don't mean anything when a druid can pop out of stealth and instant cast mass entanglement, which you then can't los, interrupt, or fight back and unless you have hard immunity your defensive spells won't actually save you. So yeah, it is an I win button. Stop looking at convoke in a vacuum by itself and excluding a druids entire toolkit.

Why? You're excluding every other classes toolkit. Oh he has Mass Entanglement, too bad every class in the game can get out of roots. Not to mention you keep saying Convoke is a one shot kill and an I win button but it apparently relies on their other skills to set up, so that doesn't make much sense.

There's not a spec in the game that can't deal with Convoke if you're paying attention. But you ignore every defensive in the game because you don't know how to use them so you assume Convoke is overpowered.

[Raugnaut]

The only spells that hit harder than 18k are Full Moon (Which doesn't proc from Convoke in PvP), Templar's Verdict, which is a Ret Paladin ability and Condemn which is a Warrior skill. So sure, some spells do hit harder than 18k, but it isn't any of the spells that are relevant to this current discussion.

During Celestial Alignment/Incarnation, a Boomkin's Starsurge CAN crit 18k providing that they've got enough mastery (Generally ~400 mastery is enough to get those numbers). What's more, with the Boomkin Crit legendary (40% increased crit chance decaying 8% per second), they have a grand total of almost 70% overall Crit chance (10% from Incarnation, 12% from PvP talent, at least 5% baseline crit, and then the legendary)(I think the legendary may even double dip on Crit during Celestial Alignment/Incarnation, essentially guaranteeing crits for 2 seconds).

So unless you have some form of Crit immunity, you will take 2 back-to-back Starsurges for 18k each outside of your own personal defensives. Granted, there is some slight amount of counterplay, but it requires an incredibly quick reaction time to prevent those first two Starsurges.

Let's not forget that Boomkins can boost their own mastery by an additional 4-600 for 30 seconds after Convoke, meaning that they can potentially even land 22-26k crits.

- - - Updated - - -

Los and max range don't mean anything when a druid can pop out of stealth and instant cast mass entanglement, which you then can't los, interrupt, or fight back and unless you have hard immunity your defensive spells won't actually save you. So yeah, it is an I win button. Stop looking at convoke in a vacuum by itself and excluding a druids entire toolkit.

Blizzard has change it so that Convoke does not target rooted targets. So, no, Druids can no longer mass entanglement-Convoke.

[TheAld]

Very little RNG? The entire spell is RNG, there's a chance they don't cast a single starsurge the entire cast. Just shows you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

So you need max range, with no LoS anywhere near you, against someone who doesn't fight back, and doesn't use any defensive spells. Yeah, it does sound like an iwin button in that incredibly unlikely scenario where your opponent is AFK, good point, you're right.

Trying to claim you can't kill anyone with convoke unless they're afk is just plain wrong and makes you look ridiculous. The only people who defend convoke are people who play/play with Druid.

It happens with every spell that's ridiculously strong, on every class that's ever been strong. The only people that honestly try to defend it are those who play it. Rogues would defend their ability to kill people in a single stun before their damage was fixed.

[Rucati]

Trying to claim you can't kill anyone with convoke unless they're afk is just plain wrong and makes you look ridiculous. The only people who defend convoke are people who play/play with Druid.

It happens with every spell that's ridiculously strong, on every class that's ever been strong. The only people that honestly try to defend it are those who play it. Rogues would defend their ability to kill people in a single stun before their damage was fixed.

Actually I have 7 level 60s and none of them are Druids, I think Convoke is perfectly fine. In fact I actually think it's pretty weak when you compare it to the Kyrian ability, and considering there are 4 Balance Druids in the top 100 on US and all 4 of them are Kyrian I'd say it's pretty solid evidence that Convoke is not good against good players. The only people who think Convoke is strong are people stuck at 1600 that don't know how to play their class.

Rogues killing somebody in a stun that has no counterplay is very different from a Druid channeling a 4 second spell that's 100% RNG. Let's not pretend they can be compared. Every single class and spec in the game have ways of countering Convoke, if you can't figure out how that's on you. Read your abilities or something.

[TheAld]

Actually I have 7 level 60s and none of them are Druids, I think Convoke is perfectly fine. In fact I actually think it's pretty weak when you compare it to the Kyrian ability, and considering there are 4 Balance Druids in the top 100 on US and all 4 of them are Kyrian I'd say it's pretty solid evidence that Convoke is not good against good players. The only people who think Convoke is strong are people stuck at 1600 that don't know how to play their class.

Rogues killing somebody in a stun that has no counterplay is very different from a Druid channeling a 4 second spell that's 100% RNG. Let's not pretend they can be compared. Every single class and spec in the game have ways of countering Convoke, if you can't figure out how that's on you. Read your abilities or something.

I'm not arguing it can't be countered in an arena situation, there's a counter to every single ability in this game. I'm flat out stating that it's an overpowered ability that one shots people regularly. Just because the best players in the world all find ways to counter it so some Druids play Kyrian, doesn't mean the ability isn't overpowered. Just as you say every class has a way of countering convoke, every Druid should find a way of freecasting it. Even if it doesn't kill it forces cds, it's an extremely deadly spell.

Saying it's not good against good players is again wrong. That's like saying Chaos Bolt last season wasn't good against good players, because it can be countered. Classes and comps have ways to ensure their abilities land, and Druids can wipe someone out in a second during a partial channel of a convoke.

[Luxeley]

Don't point the finger just at Druids. That's not even 25% of the whole calamity. At least Convoke can be countered some of the time, but there is nothing you can to stop a Ret with WIngs and up. Nothing like a Ret two shotting you with Bubble, Wings, Divine Toll and Templar's Verdict, when specced the right way = instant dead. WW Monks, as well as Enhance Shaman, can delete you in less than 4 seconds as well. Both of their BIS Legos are off the charts OP. Sub Rogues and MM Hunter used to be part of the club, but Blizzard immediately nerfed them yet they can still Rock and Roll as well.

Long have I accepted the 1st to burst style of Pvp in 2s. Dont like it at all, but I accept it, that's its place, that's where it belongs and should thrive. But, not in 3s and not BGs, there needs to be nuance, skill and coordinated strategy in 3s and BGs. The idea of ppl saying matches lasted 20-25 mins is ridiculous and simply not true. Sure, exceptions do exist here and there, they always do. You need to look at the norm, not the exception, and the norm in BFA and Legion were not 25 min games.

The more Blizzard diminishes skill in WOW pvp, the less interested I am. Been pvping for 12 years and I haven't seen this kind of burst dmg since Firelands in Cata where casters literally deleted players with the Lego staff in the early part of that patch. Arguably you can point the finger at players in full raid gear during the Timeless Isle patch in MOP. That's around the same time Blizzard took resilience off the majority of pvp gear and placed it as a passive on the player, it rendered pvp gear totally useless, even elite gear completely useless. And when Blizzard adds Valor pts, pvp gear will be useless once again.

It's no surprise, Blizzard knows less about pvp in their own game than a coal miner knows about coding. Wow pvp holds so much potential it truly does. Blizzard is literally sitting on a pot of gold and they're consistently and cluelessly mining it with spoon then wondering why participation goes down, down, down. Yes, I do think pvp participation is up a little bit from BFA and Legion, but then again it's definitely nowhere near the heights it reached in WOTLK, MOP and even WOD. You can do the math by figuring out the # of Glads each season, it's not hard.

There's a reason why Wow Arena has been around for over 15 years and still no one cares about it. You'd think Blizzard would learn a thing or two over the years, but no. They aspire to mediocrity and reach a notch or two above the doldrums of failure.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, Convoke hits super fucking hard. It's also easy to interrupt. And if you do interrupt it, that Druid is fucked for 2 minutes.

You speak the truth! Sure, a stealth druid in 2s or 3s has better than a 50/50 shot to get off a convoke out of the gate. But, the same can be said for Mage/Rogue comp and they've been doing it for years. Outside of Arena, Convoke is pretty dam easy to interrupt. Getting a successful convoke off in a bg or rbg is like trying to jerk off in a small apt with your roommates around and not getting caught.

[Rucati]

I'm not arguing it can't be countered in an arena situation, there's a counter to every single ability in this game. I'm flat out stating that it's an overpowered ability that one shots people regularly. Just because the best players in the world all find ways to counter it so some Druids play Kyrian, doesn't mean the ability isn't overpowered. Just as you say every class has a way of countering convoke, every Druid should find a way of freecasting it. Even if it doesn't kill it forces cds, it's an extremely deadly spell.

Saying it's not good against good players is again wrong. That's like saying Chaos Bolt last season wasn't good against good players, because it can be countered. Classes and comps have ways to ensure their abilities land, and Druids can wipe someone out in a second during a partial channel of a convoke.

Every big CD forces enemy CDs, that's literally how the game is played. If a Rogue uses Blades, or a Ret uses Wings, or a Shaman uses Ascendance they also force CDs, but you don't seem to be complaining about those for some reason, despite the fact that Ret Paladins and Enhance Shamans can kill just as fast as Convoke Druids while also having less counterplay.

And comparing a skill with a 2min CD to Chaos Bolt, which has no CD, just makes you look very dumb honestly. Last season Warlock teams literally just sat there for like 5 minutes trying to get one Chaos Bolt off, if it failed they just tried again until eventually things lined up. You can't do that with Convoke, you get one try every 2 minutes and if it doesn't kill you aren't threatening for the next 2 minutes.

And it's not just the "best players in the world" who figured out how to counter it, I'm 2500 and regularly lose to all the rank 1 players, it's not hard to counter. If they make it easy to counter for bad players then it becomes 100% useless for good players. That's why they don't balance the game around 1600 players, thank god.

I understand that low rated players struggle with it, I boosted a Boomkin to 1800 in 2s last week and like half our wins happened instantly with Convoke because the enemy team stood in the open and didn't even try to stop it. I imagine it's those people complaining it's overpowered, honestly, because as long as you read through your own abilities you'll find a variety of counters to it.

[TheAld]

Every big CD forces enemy CDs, that's literally how the game is played. If a Rogue uses Blades, or a Ret uses Wings, or a Shaman uses Ascendance they also force CDs, but you don't seem to be complaining about those for some reason, despite the fact that Ret Paladins and Enhance Shamans can kill just as fast as Convoke Druids while also having less counterplay.

And comparing a skill with a 2min CD to Chaos Bolt, which has no CD, just makes you look very dumb honestly. Last season Warlock teams literally just sat there for like 5 minutes trying to get one Chaos Bolt off, if it failed they just tried again until eventually things lined up. You can't do that with Convoke, you get one try every 2 minutes and if it doesn't kill you aren't threatening for the next 2 minutes.

I'm not complaining about those spells at the moment because this thread was created specifically mentioning Convoke. I think the meta is too bursty in general.

You couldn't just keep firing Chaos Bolts either, you used dark soul and infernal cast/proc or they dealt considerably less damage. You just lined warlocks whenever you saw an Infernal, which was easier to do because locks in BFA were a wheelchair class.

If Convoke was okay Blizzard wouldn't have felt the need to nerf it several times this patch already. I think it's still ridiculously strong in its current incarnation, personally.

Boomkins have plenty of threatening utility outside of Convoke, otherwise those Kyrian Druids wouldn't be successful. Any class that can launch 20k crits is fairly threatening, never mind the utility they provide. If they have Convoke, good Druids obviously don't pop it off the bat when every other class has their counters at the ready.

[Djuntas]

Sounds like OP is running around in warmode without any vers gear or pvp trinkets on. Burst is pretty high, sure. Not as bad if you actually have 30% vers and the pvp trinkets on.



There's a 30 second CD with on-use trinkets.

We'll ofc I am...Im doing world quests for gut sake. I wasen't even trying to pvp, neither was the boomkin really targeting me, he likely did not even notice he killed me...

[Rucati]

If Convoke was okay Blizzard wouldn't have felt the need to nerf it several times this patch already. I think it's still ridiculously strong in its current incarnation, personally.

Boomkins have plenty of threatening utility outside of Convoke, otherwise those Kyrian Druids wouldn't be successful. Any class that can launch 20k crits is fairly threatening, never mind the utility they provide. If they have Convoke, good Druids obviously don't pop it off the bat when every other class has their counters at the ready.

Convoke was super broken when Full Moon could still proc because it could then literally 1 shot you, in fact I have a screenshot somewhere where I got hit for a 16k Starsurge and a 23k Full Moon and died in 0.1 seconds from 100% health. But since they removed Full Moon the skill is fine, it was broken and they fixed it, problem solved.

Boomkins aren't really very threatening outside of Incarn unless they're Kyrian, then they're threatening about every minute which is on par with every other class. Convoke requires way too much setup to be reliable, and even if everything is set up properly it's still pretty easy to stop it on every class. And if everything has to go right for your 2 minute CD to be effective I'd wager it's not a great skill.

[Segus1992]

convoke is the dumbest spell in wow history

Balance* Convoke is, it's actually pretty good as Feral because of how easy it is to counter.

I'd also say the real issue with Balance Convoke is how strong Starsurge is - more damage should be shuffled to the rest of the spells, which would also make balance more balanced (HEH) in PvE.

- - - Updated - - -

Convoke was super broken when Full Moon could still proc because it could then literally 1 shot you, in fact I have a screenshot somewhere where I got hit for a 16k Starsurge and a 23k Full Moon and died in 0.1 seconds from 100% health. But since they removed Full Moon the skill is fine, it was broken and they fixed it, problem solved.

Boomkins aren't really very threatening outside of Incarn unless they're Kyrian, then they're threatening about every minute which is on par with every other class. Convoke requires way too much setup to be reliable, and even if everything is set up properly it's still pretty easy to stop it on every class. And if everything has to go right for your 2 minute CD to be effective I'd wager it's not a great skill.

You sound like you play Balance. Removing Full Moon in PvP was the right choice, but it's still broken. No, it's not easy for every class to stop it. How many other classes have 2 min CDs that literally kill you if you don't save several CDs to stop it asap?

[TheAld]

Convoke was super broken when Full Moon could still proc because it could then literally 1 shot you, in fact I have a screenshot somewhere where I got hit for a 16k Starsurge and a 23k Full Moon and died in 0.1 seconds from 100% health. But since they removed Full Moon the skill is fine, it was broken and they fixed it, problem solved.

Boomkins aren't really very threatening outside of Incarn unless they're Kyrian, then they're threatening about every minute which is on par with every other class. Convoke requires way too much setup to be reliable, and even if everything is set up properly it's still pretty easy to stop it on every class. And if everything has to go right for your 2 minute CD to be effective I'd wager it's not a great skill.

https://imgur.com/a/zzj8Mpu

This was a couple months ago, back when I (healer) actually did arena and my mates hadn't quit. This was 2s, weren't playing meta so that's probably part of the problem. ~25% versa at the time, but lower health pools. As you can see I've popped Desperate Prayer prior to Pain Supp, and then cast PW:R before trying to hard cast Shadowmend. In the 2s between PW:R casting (incurred GCD, then the cast time for Shadowmend (~1.2s) I dropped from 91% to dead through Pain Supp and 25% bonus hp. I couldn't have made it out of LOS in time, especially considering I play with ~300MS (playing EU servers from NZ).

If you scale up those Starsurges without PS, the dude is hitting for ~18k and I took 3 of them in 1.5s, plus multiple other spells. And gear inflation means I'm sure the crit ceiling has only gotten higher since a few months ago.

I know there's things I can do to improve how I handle Convoke, but the spell is still supremely strong and capable of one shotting post-nerf. If I hadn't cast PS I'd have died in 0.5 of a second.

[ClassicPeon]

I've got a druid in my guild who thinks he is a great player because he can easily get into keys.

He often talks about how he is really good at using Convoke in the right situations.

Everytime he talks i get an anurism.

[Rucati]

You sound like you play Balance. Removing Full Moon in PvP was the right choice, but it's still broken. No, it's not easy for every class to stop it. How many other classes have 2 min CDs that literally kill you if you don't save several CDs to stop it asap?

Nope I main HPal and Disc Priest. Don't even have a 60 Druid.

It's very easy for every class to stop with the possible exception of Ret Paladins who would just bubble and win the game anyway. Most classes have a damage CD that requires multiple defensives to live through with the exception of Warrior which has the highest consistent damage in the game to make up for their lack of a huge burst CD.

https://imgur.com/a/zzj8Mpu

This was a couple months ago, back when I (healer) actually did arena and my mates hadn't quit. This was 2s, weren't playing meta so that's probably part of the problem. ~25% versa at the time, but lower health pools. As you can see I've popped Desperate Prayer prior to Pain Supp, and then cast PW:R before trying to hard cast Shadowmend. In the 2s between PW:R casting (incurred GCD, then the cast time for Shadowmend (~1.2s) I dropped from 91% to dead through Pain Supp and 25% bonus hp. I couldn't have made it out of LOS in time, especially considering I play with ~300MS (playing EU servers from NZ).

If you scale up those Starsurges without PS, the dude is hitting for ~18k and I took 3 of them in 1.5s, plus multiple other spells. And gear inflation means I'm sure the crit ceiling has only gotten higher since a few months ago.

I know there's things I can do to improve how I handle Convoke, but the spell is still supremely strong and capable of one shotting post-nerf. If I hadn't cast PS I'd have died in 0.5 of a second.

If you had reacted with Barrier instead of Pain Supp you'd have lived, and considering Barrier is a shorter CD and not usable while stunned it should almost always come first if you're able to cast as a Disc Priest. You also could have used a second radiance charge or battlemasters trinket or Penance instead of Shadowmend, all of which would have probably saved you. Your teammate also was apparently nowhere near you and didn't tank any hits or offer any help.

And with the way gear scales you'd have had about 8k more health on top of that currently, as well as more versatility, which means it would have been even easier to deal with.

Yeah invoke is strong if you don't deal with it, I'm not debating that. I'm saying that if you use the proper responses then it's really not hard to deal with at all, and that makes it a pretty mediocre spell in the majority of situations. Sure if the stars align and you forget about it then Convoke seems really broken, but as long as you're paying attention it's not that strong.