Will the 9th expansion finally be fresh and not Legon 3.0?

[rhorle]

All game design is opinion, all game design is feelings. There is no such thing as intrinsically good or intrinsically bad design.

All game design is not feelings because feeling change based on the consumer. There is also design elements that can be objectively bad and objectively good. That is independent of the subjective nature that the consumers have of the design. The rest of your post is just nonesense to pad your ego of being this super smart game designer that knows so much more then Blizzard.

Maybe just move on from the game? Your criticisms aren't even about what their goals are because you know you bashed the Ember court just for being the ember court. That is the problem when you act all arrogant and move the goal posts for each post. You are analyzing your feelings of the content and calling it bad because your feelings do not match their goal. That is 100% different from bad game design principles.

[NineSpine]

All game design is not feelings because feeling change based on the consumer. There is also design elements that can be objectively bad and objectively good. That is independent of the subjective nature that the consumers have of the design. The rest of your post is just nonesense to pad your ego of being this super smart game designer that knows so much more then Blizzard.

Maybe just move on from the game? Your criticisms aren't even about what their goals are because you know you bashed the Ember court just for being the ember court. That is the problem when you act all arrogant and move the goal posts for each post. You are analyzing your feelings of the content and calling it bad because your feelings do not match their goal. That is 100% different from bad game design principles.

The ember court is bad design because the goal was to create an event that felt like it was immersing you in Venthyr culture. It doesn't do that. It ends up feeling like you are just managing a series of minigames in an environment that isn't terribly interesting or indicative of Venthyr culture. The majority of time dedicated to Ember Court isn't even *doing Ember Court*, but instead going to other zones to do errands for the invitees. The event itself is short, and the tutorial for it does a really poor job of preparing you, which can lead to a feeling like you wasted the first few attempts just figuring out what to do unless you go look it up.

Once again, you refuse to engage in the actual conversation or even address a single point I made, instead favoring this weird masturbatory internet tough guy psycho-analysis.

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All game design is not feelings because feeling change based on the consumer. There is also design elements that can be objectively bad and objectively good. That is independent of the subjective nature that the consumers have of the design. The rest of your post is just nonesense to pad your ego of being this super smart game designer that knows so much more then Blizzard.

Maybe just move on from the game? Your criticisms aren't even about what their goals are because you know you bashed the Ember court just for being the ember court. That is the problem when you act all arrogant and move the goal posts for each post. You are analyzing your feelings of the content and calling it bad because your feelings do not match their goal. That is 100% different from bad game design principles.

How about this, I'll make one more attempt to get you off this babbling internet debate lord nonsense:

How does Torghast achieve the design principles that make roguelites fun?

[rhorle]

The ember court is bad design because the goal was to create an event that felt like it was immersing you in Venthyr culture. It doesn't do that. It ends up feeling like you are just managing a series of minigames in an environment that isn't terribly interesting or indicative of Venthyr culture. The majority of time dedicated to Ember Court isn't even *doing Ember Court*, but instead going to other zones to do errands for the invitees. The event itself is short, and the tutorial for it does a really poor job of preparing you, which can lead to a feeling like you wasted the first few attempts just figuring out what to do unless you go look it up.

Right. It is bad because you don't like it. You have already established that as a guiding princple for all of your criticisms. Despite being a super duper game designer yourself. What do you think throwing a party is supposed to be? Every response is engaging an actual conversation. The problem is you keep trying to ignore and insult because you don't like the direction the conversation takes. That is why you spent more time saying you could talk about issues then talking about them. Weird right?

I don't need to point by point through list when it all boils down to you not liking the content rather then objective designs. Or you feeling lied to because Blizzard said X but you feel it is Y.

[Argorwal]

I don't really mind these designs but I do wish blizzard would stop over rewarded experimental content with rewards "needed" for mythic progression. Mage tower was a roaring success with out power rewards... I don't see why torghast or dailies still need to be a thing that has currency that can only be collected from that content.

The less they design the game tiptoeing around what is "needed" by mythic raiders (most of which need to be carried by nerfs and gear rather than admiting they need to improve their skill) the better.

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Shadowlands would be a perfect expansion if not for daily callings/maw

PvP - good
Mythic+ - really good
Raid - heard its great(I don't raid)
Torghast - its only once a week so its okay

All the end game content is great but why do I have to do these annoying chores in between? and before you say I can skip it, no I cannot because I play competitively and minmax my character so I suffer through it

But I would enjoy it a lot more if I didn't have to do those things.
I think just making maw and calling a weekly thing would've made it less annoying

How are callings help you in min/max?

They reward garbage (a bit of gold/rep).

[NineSpine]

Right. It is bad because you don't like it. You have already established that as a guiding princple for all of your criticisms. Despite being a super duper game designer yourself. What do you think throwing a party is supposed to be? Every response is engaging an actual conversation. The problem is you keep trying to ignore and insult because you don't like the direction the conversation takes. That is why you spent more time saying you could talk about issues then talking about them. Weird right?

I don't need to point by point through list when it all boils down to you not liking the content rather then objective designs. Or you feeling lied to because Blizzard said X but you feel it is Y.

I've tried to state my opinions clearly and with reason over and over again. All you've done in response is relentless attack me, and now you want to pretend that I'm the one who doesn't want to have a conversation. Alright.

Can you provide some actual examples of objectively good and objectively bad design?

[Djaye]

considering the next expansion is coming from the team that brought us WoD and BFA, im going to go and make a pretty calculated guess and say... no

at least the MoP, Legion, SL team gives us lots to do.

[leviathonlx]

I mean if Shadowlands was Legion 3.0 I'd still be subbed since I loved everything about Legion.

[Enclave]

The less they design the game tiptoeing around what is "needed" by mythic raiders (most of which need to be carried by nerfs and gear rather than admiting they need to improve their skill) the better.

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How are callings help you in min/max?

They reward garbage (a bit of gold/rep).

conduits, which rarely drop in mythic+ and i dont raid

[rhorle]

I've tried to state my opinions clearly and with reason over and over again. All you've done in response is relentless attack me, and now you want to pretend that I'm the one who doesn't want to have a conversation. Alright.

Lying now? You spent more posts saying you could provide reasons then actually providing reasons. I'm not pretending anything. You are the only one saying that a conversation is not taking place. Twice now. Do you actually read what you are responding with or are you to focus on insults as deflection? I've already addressed your points and I don't need to go through them one by one when the same answer applies to all.

You literally feel like Blizzard lied because design elements to do not meet your personal wish list for using X term as a descriptor. Torghast is inspired by roguelite type of games even if it doesn't incorporate all of the design principles you personally want to see. That is the core over and over again with your criticisms. You are calling things bad, or lies, simply because it doesn't have your standard for fun or enjoyment.

Which was proven with your ember court complaints. You don't find doing that stuff fun so it is terrible game design. What more can I actually say when post after post your responses fit what I've been saying all along. You are basing bad design on your level of enjoyment rather then objectively bad design. You've gone from dropping you are a game developer to give yourself more internet points, to talking about sex acts, to saying conversation hasn't been taken place, to saying you were lied to when Blizzard never lied by your own statements. They just didn't fit your subjective requirements for design when using X term.

And how can I provide examples for something you said doesn't actually exist? Weird right? You are the actual game designer here. Shouldn't you be able to answer that yourself? Oh right. Everything is subjective. Everything is optional. Everything is whatever you need it to be to support your argument. The ember court is a good example of an objectively good design. I've had no problem doing it though it could use some tweaks here and there and the ones Blizzard implemented is sound.

Much of the failings of Ember court are more on the low drop rate of items/buffs. Or not stating what is locked behind the further ranks since you have no idea when or where to get the ember court enhancements like the buckets to stop the candle fires. But all of the things you've stated are inherent flaws in the design I haven't encounterd. I wasn't lost on what to do.

There are actual covenant systems that have a flawed design from the get go like with Night Fae. The garden is silly at the lower ranks. The ember court may be a lot for some players to understand but it is still the same system through out all ranks. And provides a minor yet useful reward even at lower levels. And heck at rank 3 you get a 5 day buff to rep gain for whatever zone your epic quest is from.

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considering the next expansion is coming from the team that brought us WoD and BFA, im going to go and make a pretty calculated guess and say... no at least the MoP, Legion, SL team gives us lots to do.

So Blizzard fired employees during legion only to rehire them back once Legion was over? I don't think your calculated guesses amount to much. The team that developed WoD worked on Legion because they essentially abandoned WoD to put more work into Legion.

[dcc626]

I totally agree with OP. I'm sick of these boring borrowed powers and new systems no one ever asked for. Even though SL is a good expansion despite this, I can't wait to play Classic Burning Crusade and then Classic Wrath of the Lich King for good until they make Retail great again.

you probably arent going to like the game again then. if you havent figured it out yet, they arent going to add a bunch of new permanent powers. each time they do the playerbase expects them to never change or get taken away. each time makes designing new content harder and harder, as well as overall balance.

so they add borrowed power, telling us exactly how long we have it for. and then takes it away and starts over.

this is what the game is now. up toi you if you play or not.

[rhorle]

Boy, you wanna know what I DON'T wanna spend a few days doing? So, no, in fact, not void at all.

But if you don't want to do anything in the game then the complaint is moot to begin with. Which means it is void.

[Argorwal]

Except the game should be desirable to play on it's own, not just for the reward. So no, the fact that I don't want to play the game is the problem, not the fact that the game doesn't reward you enough for playing it.

So it's not moot at all. I don't want to do anything in game is precisely the problem. If the game doesn't make itself desirable to play, no amount of reward is going to fix that.

Every game in existence is undesirable to some segment of players.

Most just move on, not lurk around like a jealous ex.

[Soon-TM]

If the game doesn't make itself desirable to play, no amount of reward is going to fix that.

So much this. I wonder how many people would have bothered with #$&@ty content such as e.g. Warfronts hadn't they been a reliable source of HC level loot. Remove the loot, and you have Torghast or the Maw.

[Argorwal]

So much this. I wonder how many people would have bothered with #$&@ty content such as e.g. Warfronts hadn't they been a reliable source of HC level loot. Remove the loot, and you have Torghast or the Maw.

Any content becomes barely played when you gut rewards.

Like PvP in Legion, which came in the heels of WoD and PvP being so easy and lucrative for gear.

[rhorle]

Except the game should be desirable to play on it's own, not just for the reward. So no, the fact that I don't want to play the game is the problem, not the fact that the game doesn't reward you enough for playing it.So it's not moot at all. I don't want to do anything in game is precisely the problem. If the game doesn't make itself desirable to play, no amount of reward is going to fix that.

Right. You have no desire to play any aspect of the game. Which means gaining renown is moot since you don't even care about gaining renown. Duh. No amount of game design can change a player that has no interest in playing the game anymore.

[rhorle]

Literally, in fact, game design can and should change that a player has no interest in playing a specific game anymore. It is the design of the game which makes it unfun/undesirable to play. Bad design is, quite literally, the biggest problem I have with Shadowlands, and is why I choose not to play it. I can just not play, and if I decide to play later, I will have equally as much progress as people who have wasted hundreds of hours in the game - That's bad design, and discourages me from playing. It's BEEN bad design since Legion introduced AP catch up.

There are plenty of things to blame the developers over. Just because I am critical of your view doesn't mean I am drinking kool-aid. Stop being so narrow minded to think that you know it all and everyone else must be brain washed if they feel differently. Game design can never cause a player to enjoy doing something if they don't find the basic task enjoyable in the first place. No amount of tricks, costumes, or anything else to dress up that task will cause a player to suddenly enjoy doing things.

Case in point your reason for now playing has nothing to do with the quality of the game design. But has everything to with you being unable to be an elite or special snowflake with in the game. Because someone could come in months later and catch up. There is nothing wrong with catch up mechanics and it also undermines your earlier complaint that you didn't want to do 20 things to get Renown. When the entire reason you now state you are not playing is because someone can do those 20 things and catch up.

Weird right? People choose to waste time playing a game because they enjoy playing it. If you don't enjoy playing it then the lack of a catch up mechanic won't change anything about the game. It is amusing how in your very next response you say if a game is fun people will keep playing it. Yet you just got done saying your enjoyment on a game requires people to do months old content. Weird right?

Could it be you just don't' enjoy the game anymore but instead of saying such a thing you keep making excuses. Which again reinforces how it isn't a game design problem. But your own personal issues with others having a catch-up mechanic.

[Argorwal]

Wow. Someone is REALLY drinking the dev koolaid.

Literally, in fact, game design can and should change that a player has no interest in playing a specific game anymore. It is the design of the game which makes it unfun/undesirable to play. Bad design is, quite literally, the biggest problem I have with Shadowlands, and is why I choose not to play it. I can just not play, and if I decide to play later, I will have equally as much progress as people who have wasted hundreds of hours in the game - That's bad design, and discourages me from playing. It's BEEN bad design since Legion introduced AP catch up.

Then, if I choose to waste hundreds of hours in game, some joe-schmoe is able to catch up to me by NOT playing.

I don't know how else to say that that's a shitty system, which SHOULD be fixed by game design, considering it should be very plainly obvious.

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Yet other games manage just fine. FFXIV has managed to keep all of it's content somewhat desirable, so much so that people who have completed every reward from the Baldesion Arsenal (48-56 man dungeon available only through grinding out 4 zones with a side-leveling system that delevels you when you die and is meant to be reminiscent of FFXI leveling) continue to run it every day. And it's old content now!

People who have completely beaten Super Mario Brothers will still occassionally think "Man, that was fun, I'd like to replay that someday." And then actually go do it - Madmen, right?

Alts would not be a thing if all people wanted were the rewards - As once you've beaten everything on one character, you'd literally never need to play the game ever again.

And let's not even bring up how many hours MOST people online have sunk into Skyrim, a game which literally never changes no matter how many times you play through each storyline.

Clearly this is a WoW problem, not an "every game" problem. If a game is fun, people will continue playing it, even AFTER earning all of the rewards. If it's not, people won't. It truly is that simple.

Many people DO enjoy playing over. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean the game needs to change direction.

I have zero desire to replay Breath of the Wild and I really enjoyed it. That doesn’t mean anything needs to change. I just don’t play it.

I enjoyed Mario as a kid. Some people love speed running and playing over and over. I don’t, that would be horribly boring.

[rhorle]

Nobody said otherwise.That said, the game itself should be enjoyable. Which Shadowlands isn't.

The game is enjoyable just not for you. And you spent an entire post saying that game design should make a game enjoyable. You even used the word literally. Weird now that you say no one, including yourself, said that? Your work has never meant anything in the game though. Again it isn't the fault of the game but the fault of yourself. Something that game design can never change or account for. Not to mention you literally counter act your argument of wanting everyone to be on the same level. A catch up mechanic is getting everyone on the same level. Weird how you can't even make a coherent argument yet again.

Literally, in fact, game design can and should change that a player has no interest in playing a specific game anymore.

[rhorle]

Then explain why people do it with no reward?

Have you ever considered that they want to just because they enjoy doing it?

[Argorwal]

Yeah, even I caught that one, which is why I reread my posts and edit them. Not sure why I even typed that tbh, considering it's not what I meant to say whatsoever.



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Then explain why people do it with no reward?

After all, your post said, and I quote:



There's no reward for replaying a game, so why do people do it?

Because they enjoy it. Me not enjoying Shadowlands is more than enough reason for me to suggest it should change. You not wanting it to change is all well and good, but telling me it shouldn't because you enjoy it is never going to be an argument against my reasoning for why I dislike it.

This basically sums up WoW and video games forever. Different people want different changes or non-changes and no matter what happens a segment is disappointed.

Normally when this happens to me in a game , I just move on.