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  1. #281
    I mean if Shadowlands was Legion 3.0 I'd still be subbed since I loved everything about Legion.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    The less they design the game tiptoeing around what is "needed" by mythic raiders (most of which need to be carried by nerfs and gear rather than admiting they need to improve their skill) the better.

    - - - Updated - - -



    How are callings help you in min/max?

    They reward garbage (a bit of gold/rep).
    conduits, which rarely drop in mythic+ and i dont raid

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I've tried to state my opinions clearly and with reason over and over again. All you've done in response is relentless attack me, and now you want to pretend that I'm the one who doesn't want to have a conversation. Alright.
    Lying now? You spent more posts saying you could provide reasons then actually providing reasons. I'm not pretending anything. You are the only one saying that a conversation is not taking place. Twice now. Do you actually read what you are responding with or are you to focus on insults as deflection? I've already addressed your points and I don't need to go through them one by one when the same answer applies to all.

    You literally feel like Blizzard lied because design elements to do not meet your personal wish list for using X term as a descriptor. Torghast is inspired by roguelite type of games even if it doesn't incorporate all of the design principles you personally want to see. That is the core over and over again with your criticisms. You are calling things bad, or lies, simply because it doesn't have your standard for fun or enjoyment.

    Which was proven with your ember court complaints. You don't find doing that stuff fun so it is terrible game design. What more can I actually say when post after post your responses fit what I've been saying all along. You are basing bad design on your level of enjoyment rather then objectively bad design. You've gone from dropping you are a game developer to give yourself more internet points, to talking about sex acts, to saying conversation hasn't been taken place, to saying you were lied to when Blizzard never lied by your own statements. They just didn't fit your subjective requirements for design when using X term.

    And how can I provide examples for something you said doesn't actually exist? Weird right? You are the actual game designer here. Shouldn't you be able to answer that yourself? Oh right. Everything is subjective. Everything is optional. Everything is whatever you need it to be to support your argument. The ember court is a good example of an objectively good design. I've had no problem doing it though it could use some tweaks here and there and the ones Blizzard implemented is sound.

    Much of the failings of Ember court are more on the low drop rate of items/buffs. Or not stating what is locked behind the further ranks since you have no idea when or where to get the ember court enhancements like the buckets to stop the candle fires. But all of the things you've stated are inherent flaws in the design I haven't encounterd. I wasn't lost on what to do.

    There are actual covenant systems that have a flawed design from the get go like with Night Fae. The garden is silly at the lower ranks. The ember court may be a lot for some players to understand but it is still the same system through out all ranks. And provides a minor yet useful reward even at lower levels. And heck at rank 3 you get a 5 day buff to rep gain for whatever zone your epic quest is from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    considering the next expansion is coming from the team that brought us WoD and BFA, im going to go and make a pretty calculated guess and say... no at least the MoP, Legion, SL team gives us lots to do.
    So Blizzard fired employees during legion only to rehire them back once Legion was over? I don't think your calculated guesses amount to much. The team that developed WoD worked on Legion because they essentially abandoned WoD to put more work into Legion.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Nak88 View Post
    I totally agree with OP. I'm sick of these boring borrowed powers and new systems no one ever asked for. Even though SL is a good expansion despite this, I can't wait to play Classic Burning Crusade and then Classic Wrath of the Lich King for good until they make Retail great again.
    you probably arent going to like the game again then. if you havent figured it out yet, they arent going to add a bunch of new permanent powers. each time they do the playerbase expects them to never change or get taken away. each time makes designing new content harder and harder, as well as overall balance.

    so they add borrowed power, telling us exactly how long we have it for. and then takes it away and starts over.

    this is what the game is now. up toi you if you play or not.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And thanks to catchup, you don't need to. In fact, you'd probably get most of those in a few days just doing random stuff, so your complaint is void.
    Boy, you wanna know what I DON'T wanna spend a few days doing?

    So, no, in fact, not void at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Boy, you wanna know what I DON'T wanna spend a few days doing? So, no, in fact, not void at all.
    But if you don't want to do anything in the game then the complaint is moot to begin with. Which means it is void.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But if you don't want to do anything in the game then the complaint is moot to begin with. Which means it is void.
    Except the game should be desirable to play on it's own, not just for the reward. So no, the fact that I don't want to play the game is the problem, not the fact that the game doesn't reward you enough for playing it.

    So it's not moot at all. I don't want to do anything in game is precisely the problem. If the game doesn't make itself desirable to play, no amount of reward is going to fix that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Except the game should be desirable to play on it's own, not just for the reward. So no, the fact that I don't want to play the game is the problem, not the fact that the game doesn't reward you enough for playing it.

    So it's not moot at all. I don't want to do anything in game is precisely the problem. If the game doesn't make itself desirable to play, no amount of reward is going to fix that.
    Every game in existence is undesirable to some segment of players.

    Most just move on, not lurk around like a jealous ex.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    If the game doesn't make itself desirable to play, no amount of reward is going to fix that.
    So much this. I wonder how many people would have bothered with #$&@ty content such as e.g. Warfronts hadn't they been a reliable source of HC level loot. Remove the loot, and you have Torghast or the Maw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So much this. I wonder how many people would have bothered with #$&@ty content such as e.g. Warfronts hadn't they been a reliable source of HC level loot. Remove the loot, and you have Torghast or the Maw.
    Any content becomes barely played when you gut rewards.

    Like PvP in Legion, which came in the heels of WoD and PvP being so easy and lucrative for gear.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Except the game should be desirable to play on it's own, not just for the reward. So no, the fact that I don't want to play the game is the problem, not the fact that the game doesn't reward you enough for playing it.So it's not moot at all. I don't want to do anything in game is precisely the problem. If the game doesn't make itself desirable to play, no amount of reward is going to fix that.
    Right. You have no desire to play any aspect of the game. Which means gaining renown is moot since you don't even care about gaining renown. Duh. No amount of game design can change a player that has no interest in playing the game anymore.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right. You have no desire to play any aspect of the game. Which means gaining renown is moot since you don't even care about gaining renown. Duh. No amount of game design can change a player that has no interest in playing the game anymore.
    Wow. Someone is REALLY drinking the dev koolaid.

    Literally, in fact, game design can and should change that a player has no interest in playing a specific game anymore. It is the design of the game which makes it unfun/undesirable to play. Bad design is, quite literally, the biggest problem I have with Shadowlands, and is why I choose not to play it. I can just not play, and if I decide to play later, I will have equally as much progress as people who have wasted hundreds of hours in the game - That's bad design, and discourages me from playing. It's BEEN bad design since Legion introduced AP catch up.

    Then, if I choose to waste hundreds of hours in game, some joe-schmoe is able to catch up to me by NOT playing.

    I don't know how else to say that that's a shitty system, which SHOULD be fixed by game design, considering it should be very plainly obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Any content becomes barely played when you gut rewards.
    Yet other games manage just fine. FFXIV has managed to keep all of it's content somewhat desirable, so much so that people who have completed every reward from the Baldesion Arsenal (48-56 man dungeon available only through grinding out 4 zones with a side-leveling system that delevels you when you die and is meant to be reminiscent of FFXI leveling) continue to run it every day. And it's old content now!

    People who have completely beaten Super Mario Brothers will still occassionally think "Man, that was fun, I'd like to replay that someday." And then actually go do it - Madmen, right?

    Alts would not be a thing if all people wanted were the rewards - As once you've beaten everything on one character, you'd literally never need to play the game ever again.

    And let's not even bring up how many hours MOST people online have sunk into Skyrim, a game which literally never changes no matter how many times you play through each storyline.

    Clearly this is a WoW problem, not an "every game" problem. If a game is fun, people will continue playing it, even AFTER earning all of the rewards. If it's not, people won't. It truly is that simple.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-03-07 at 09:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Literally, in fact, game design can and should change that a player has no interest in playing a specific game anymore. It is the design of the game which makes it unfun/undesirable to play. Bad design is, quite literally, the biggest problem I have with Shadowlands, and is why I choose not to play it. I can just not play, and if I decide to play later, I will have equally as much progress as people who have wasted hundreds of hours in the game - That's bad design, and discourages me from playing. It's BEEN bad design since Legion introduced AP catch up.
    There are plenty of things to blame the developers over. Just because I am critical of your view doesn't mean I am drinking kool-aid. Stop being so narrow minded to think that you know it all and everyone else must be brain washed if they feel differently. Game design can never cause a player to enjoy doing something if they don't find the basic task enjoyable in the first place. No amount of tricks, costumes, or anything else to dress up that task will cause a player to suddenly enjoy doing things.

    Case in point your reason for now playing has nothing to do with the quality of the game design. But has everything to with you being unable to be an elite or special snowflake with in the game. Because someone could come in months later and catch up. There is nothing wrong with catch up mechanics and it also undermines your earlier complaint that you didn't want to do 20 things to get Renown. When the entire reason you now state you are not playing is because someone can do those 20 things and catch up.

    Weird right? People choose to waste time playing a game because they enjoy playing it. If you don't enjoy playing it then the lack of a catch up mechanic won't change anything about the game. It is amusing how in your very next response you say if a game is fun people will keep playing it. Yet you just got done saying your enjoyment on a game requires people to do months old content. Weird right?

    Could it be you just don't' enjoy the game anymore but instead of saying such a thing you keep making excuses. Which again reinforces how it isn't a game design problem. But your own personal issues with others having a catch-up mechanic.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There are plenty of things to blame the developers over. Just because I am critical of your view doesn't mean I am drinking kool-aid. Stop being so narrow minded to think that you know it all and everyone else must be brain washed if they feel differently.
    Nobody said anything of the sort. Get off your high horse - We're video game nerds arguing our opinions on a video game website. Obviously what I say is my opinion, and you yours - You're the one insisting that it's unfixable, which is blatantly untrue.

    Game design can never cause a player to enjoy doing something if they don't find the basic task enjoyable in the first place. No amount of tricks, costumes, or anything else to dress up that task will cause a player to suddenly enjoy doing things.
    For one, literally yes, game design is the SPECIFIC cause of a player enjoying doing something. It is how you dress up that task. We've killed boars 20 million times over for hearts, liver, tusks, potions, sandwiches, and shit - Are you really going to suggest you enjoy it? It's how the game chooses to frame that task that makes the player decide whether it's a worthwhile task or not. Game Design is literally the SOLE reason someone enjoys the game or not.

    That said, the game itself should be enjoyable. Which Shadowlands isn't.

    Case in point your reason for now playing has nothing to do with the quality of the game design. But has everything to with you being unable to be an elite or special snowflake with in the game. Because someone could come in months later and catch up. There is nothing wrong with catch up mechanics and it also undermines your earlier complaint that you didn't want to do 20 things to get Renown. When the entire reason you now state you are not playing is because someone can do those 20 things and catch up.
    Wow, you really are just pulling arguments out of your ass now.

    My reason for disliking the game has to do with the fact that my work means nothing, it has nothing to do with how powerful I am. I'd prefer there to be almost no power difference between early and late game.

    The fact is, it's a waste for me to play at the start, because if I choose not to, I'll be auto-caught up later with no effort whatsoever on my part. I don't like wasting my fucking time. That shouldn't be hard to understand.

    Weird right? People choose to waste time playing a game because they enjoy playing it. If you don't enjoy playing it then the lack of a catch up mechanic won't change anything about the game. It is amusing how in your very next response you say if a game is fun people will keep playing it. Yet you just got done saying your enjoyment on a game requires people to do months old content. Weird right?
    No? This isn't weird at all. It quite literally means I don't enjoy the game while it has a catch up mechanic. Shocking, right?

    My enjoyment of the game requires everyone to be on the same level. If I had to grind for six months, I expect other people to have to grind, maybe not as long, but still grind. Completely removing that grind because "catch up" means I'll simply not do the initial grind, since I can just skip it later. I'm not in a rush to finish content.

    But changing a three month grind into two days is absolutely insane. This ties into the fact that I enjoy progression, which catch up mechanics completely remove from the game. But hey, that's just too much thinking for that little brain of yours, isn't it?

    Could it be you just don't' enjoy the game anymore but instead of saying such a thing you keep making excuses. Which again reinforces how it isn't a game design problem. But your own personal issues with others having a catch-up mechanic.
    Except that I willingly have said I don't enjoy the game anymore.

    I just see a very easy way to FIX my enjoyment of the game, since all it's missing is the progression it used to have.

    But again, just too much thinking for you, isn't it?
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-03-07 at 10:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Wow. Someone is REALLY drinking the dev koolaid.

    Literally, in fact, game design can and should change that a player has no interest in playing a specific game anymore. It is the design of the game which makes it unfun/undesirable to play. Bad design is, quite literally, the biggest problem I have with Shadowlands, and is why I choose not to play it. I can just not play, and if I decide to play later, I will have equally as much progress as people who have wasted hundreds of hours in the game - That's bad design, and discourages me from playing. It's BEEN bad design since Legion introduced AP catch up.

    Then, if I choose to waste hundreds of hours in game, some joe-schmoe is able to catch up to me by NOT playing.

    I don't know how else to say that that's a shitty system, which SHOULD be fixed by game design, considering it should be very plainly obvious.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yet other games manage just fine. FFXIV has managed to keep all of it's content somewhat desirable, so much so that people who have completed every reward from the Baldesion Arsenal (48-56 man dungeon available only through grinding out 4 zones with a side-leveling system that delevels you when you die and is meant to be reminiscent of FFXI leveling) continue to run it every day. And it's old content now!

    People who have completely beaten Super Mario Brothers will still occassionally think "Man, that was fun, I'd like to replay that someday." And then actually go do it - Madmen, right?

    Alts would not be a thing if all people wanted were the rewards - As once you've beaten everything on one character, you'd literally never need to play the game ever again.

    And let's not even bring up how many hours MOST people online have sunk into Skyrim, a game which literally never changes no matter how many times you play through each storyline.

    Clearly this is a WoW problem, not an "every game" problem. If a game is fun, people will continue playing it, even AFTER earning all of the rewards. If it's not, people won't. It truly is that simple.
    Many people DO enjoy playing over. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean the game needs to change direction.

    I have zero desire to replay Breath of the Wild and I really enjoyed it. That doesn’t mean anything needs to change. I just don’t play it.

    I enjoyed Mario as a kid. Some people love speed running and playing over and over. I don’t, that would be horribly boring.
    Last edited by Argorwal; 2021-03-07 at 10:23 PM.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Nobody said otherwise.That said, the game itself should be enjoyable. Which Shadowlands isn't.
    The game is enjoyable just not for you. And you spent an entire post saying that game design should make a game enjoyable. You even used the word literally. Weird now that you say no one, including yourself, said that? Your work has never meant anything in the game though. Again it isn't the fault of the game but the fault of yourself. Something that game design can never change or account for. Not to mention you literally counter act your argument of wanting everyone to be on the same level. A catch up mechanic is getting everyone on the same level. Weird how you can't even make a coherent argument yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Literally, in fact, game design can and should change that a player has no interest in playing a specific game anymore.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The game is enjoyable just not for you. And you spent an entire post saying that game design should make a game enjoyable. You even used the word literally. Weird now that you say no one, including yourself, said that? Your work has never meant anything in the game though. Again it isn't the fault of the game but the fault of yourself. Something that game design can never change or account for. Not to mention you literally counter act your argument of wanting everyone to be on the same level. A catch up mechanic is getting everyone on the same level. Weird how you can't even make a coherent argument yet again.
    Yeah, even I caught that one, which is why I reread my posts and edit them. Not sure why I even typed that tbh, considering it's not what I meant to say whatsoever.

    For one, literally yes, game design is the SPECIFIC cause of a player enjoying doing something. It is how you dress up that task. We've killed boars 20 million times over for hearts, liver, tusks, potions, sandwiches, and shit - Are you really going to suggest you enjoy it? It's how the game chooses to frame that task that makes the player decide whether it's a worthwhile task or not. Game Design is literally the SOLE reason someone enjoys the game or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Many people DO enjoy playing over. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean the game needs to change direction.

    I have zero desire to replay Breath of the Wild and I really enjoyed it. That doesn’t mean anything needs to change. I just don’t play it.

    I enjoyed Mario as a kid. Some people love speed running and playing over and over. I don’t, that would be horribly boring.
    Then explain why people do it with no reward?

    After all, your post said, and I quote:

    Any content becomes barely played when you gut rewards.
    There's no reward for replaying a game, so why do people do it?

    Because they enjoy it. Me not enjoying Shadowlands is more than enough reason for me to suggest it should change. You not wanting it to change is all well and good, but telling me it shouldn't because you enjoy it is never going to be an argument against my reasoning for why I dislike it.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Then explain why people do it with no reward?
    Have you ever considered that they want to just because they enjoy doing it?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Have you ever considered that they want to just because they enjoy doing it?
    Yes, after all, that's in my post too.

    The condescension and assumption that I haven't thought circles around this subject is baffling to me.

    I am responding to, and I quote:

    Any content becomes barely played when you gut rewards.
    This doesn't say "Any content that isn't enjoyable becomes barely played when you gut rewards." If any content becomes barely played without a reward, then obviously, content without reward is not enjoyable, because people would do it if they enjoyed it, but this poster is suggesting they don't because there's no reward.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-03-07 at 10:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Yeah, even I caught that one, which is why I reread my posts and edit them. Not sure why I even typed that tbh, considering it's not what I meant to say whatsoever.



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    Then explain why people do it with no reward?

    After all, your post said, and I quote:



    There's no reward for replaying a game, so why do people do it?

    Because they enjoy it. Me not enjoying Shadowlands is more than enough reason for me to suggest it should change. You not wanting it to change is all well and good, but telling me it shouldn't because you enjoy it is never going to be an argument against my reasoning for why I dislike it.
    This basically sums up WoW and video games forever. Different people want different changes or non-changes and no matter what happens a segment is disappointed.

    Normally when this happens to me in a game , I just move on.

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