Will the 9th expansion finally be fresh and not Legon 3.0?

[Fleugen]

This basically sums up WoW and video games forever. Different people want different changes or non-changes and no matter what happens a segment is disappointed.

Normally when this happens to me in a game , I just move on.

Good for you, and you are free to.

I see WoW as potentially still a game I enjoy, so I would prefer to talk about what would be better for the game in my opinion, thanks.

[rhorle]

Yes, after all, that's in my post too. The condescension and assumption that I haven't thought circles around this subject is baffling to me.

Don't get offended when you get a answer to a question you asked. If you already know the answer then don't ask it. Lol. You asked why people do content with out a reward. Because they enjoy it. That still answers why content with out a reward has less people playing it. Because not everyone enjoys a entertainment the same way. So not everyone will enjoy playing with out a reward. Lol.

Which if you knew that you wouldn't have to keep asking others to answer it.

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I see WoW as potentially still a game I enjoy, so I would prefer to talk about what would be better for the game in my opinion, thanks.

Catch up mechanics are going no where. And you stated that you are not willing to do any activity in the game to gain Renown. It isn't a game you'll enjoy any time soon so there is little reason to discuss current design in the way you previously were.

[NineSpine]

Yes, after all, that's in my post too.

The condescension and assumption that I haven't thought circles around this subject is baffling to me.

I am responding to, and I quote:



This doesn't say "Any content that isn't enjoyable becomes barely played when you gut rewards." If any content becomes barely played without a reward, then obviously, content without reward is not enjoyable, because people would do it if they enjoyed it, but this poster is suggesting they don't because there's no reward.

Don't waste your time man. This guy isn't capable of a good faith debate with anyone.

[Advent]

Yeah, even I caught that one, which is why I reread my posts and edit them. Not sure why I even typed that tbh, considering it's not what I meant to say whatsoever.



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Then explain why people do it with no reward?

After all, your post said, and I quote:



There's no reward for replaying a game, so why do people do it?

Because they enjoy it. Me not enjoying Shadowlands is more than enough reason for me to suggest it should change. You not wanting it to change is all well and good, but telling me it shouldn't because you enjoy it is never going to be an argument against my reasoning for why I dislike it.

You can do that, but that's not really what you've done here. You posted in a public space, had a dissenting opinion that challenged yours, and then you proceeded to try and discredit that opinion by suggesting they "Drank the kool-aid". It's a common tactic I see here on mmo-champion, and it doesn't help discussion at all. If you didn't want to hear someone challenge your views, you shouldn't have posted anything at all. And if you're fine with that, don't resort to belittling someone else's viewpoint because it clashes with yours.

[Soon-TM]

don't resort to belittling someone else's viewpoint because it clashes with yours.

To be frank, don't try to play the impartial arbiter card, since @rhorle and @Argorwal have been doing exactly the same thing ITT, yet I don't see you chastising them.

[Advent]

To be frank, don't try to play the impartial arbiter card, since @rhorle and @Argorwal have been doing exactly the same thing ITT, yet I don't see you chastising them.

I only quote one person at a time if I can help it. Doing more than one is often quite a hassle, so perhaps my post should have just quoted no one. My fault.

[rhorle]

To be frank, don't try to play the impartial arbiter card, since @rhorle and @Argorwal have been doing exactly the same thing ITT, yet I don't see you chastising them.

I haven't resorted to belittling someone's viewpoint simply because it clashes with mine. But nice try.

[JohnBrown1917]

Covenant gear is great though.

[Fleugen]

Don't get offended when you get a answer to a question you asked. If you already know the answer then don't ask it. Lol.

It's called a rhetorical question.

A question asked because the answer is so blindingly obvious, it points out the problem with someone's assumption BEFORE they need to answer the question, thus, making people realize they're arguing nonsense.

But somehow it doesn't surprise me at this point that you'd miss that and instead, continue berating people for having a different position than you. To ignore you go.

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You can do that, but that's not really what you've done here. You posted in a public space, had a dissenting opinion that challenged yours, and then you proceeded to try and discredit that opinion by suggesting they "Drank the kool-aid".

I did not dismiss nor attempt to discredit anyone's opinion with that statement.

I stated, factually, that you have to have a very, very skewed opinion to state something like this:

No amount of game design can change a player that has no interest in playing the game anymore.

when in fact, the design of the game is LITERALLY what determines if someone has interest in playing the game. Yes, you would in fact have to be drinking the dev koolaid to argue that. This isn't an opinion, and has nothing to do with other's opinion of Shadowlands.

Game design does in fact determine if someone has interest in playing the game. That's a factual statement. To argue against that would be to suggest that games just *happen* entirely outside of the purview of the people making them, or even worse, that the people PLAYING the games have no control over their ability to play the game (which some posters here tend to pretend is true, I'm not about to) and that's just nonsense.

[rhorle]

It's called a rhetorical question.

You weren't asking it as a rhetorical question. You thought you had a gotcha moment and want to catch the poster in it. Because the rest of your post doesn't match up. If people are arguing nonsense then why do you keep arguing? You are missing the very point you keep saying you others are missing. Weird huh?

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when in fact, the design of the game is LITERALLY what determines if someone has interest in playing the game. Yes, you would in fact have to be drinking the dev koolaid to argue that. This isn't an opinion, and has nothing to do with other's opinion of Shadowlands.

But it is true. Since you said being not having to work for what you did makes you not enjoy a game. That isn't a problem caused by game design but a problem you have because catch up mechanics are not objectively bad design. It is also a thing that happens every expansion when power gets reset. Or when people clear content faster then you do since I doubt you are a world first race type of raider.

That statement has nothing to do with blindly following developers. It is just being realistic about game design and expectations of players.

[Advent]

You weren't asking it as a rhetorical question. You thought you had a gotcha moment and want to catch the poster in it. Because the rest of your post doesn't match up. If people are arguing nonsense then why do you keep arguing? You are missing the very point you keep saying you others are missing. Weird huh?

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But it is true. Since you said being not having to work for what you did makes you not enjoy a game. That isn't a problem caused by game design but a problem you have because catch up mechanics are not objectively bad design. It is also a thing that happens every expansion when power gets reset. Or when people clear content faster then you do since I doubt you are a world first race type of raider.

That statement has nothing to do with blindly following developers. It is just being realistic about game design and expectations of players.

I think the crux of his issue with catch up is that he seems to feel like the time he puts in is invalidated too easily later on. I don't feel the same way, but I understand where he's coming from. Ultimately, catch-up mechanics are a necessary evil because I believe the psychology of players prevents them from engaging in "Old" content in an enjoyable manner if everyone else is far ahead of them. No one likes feeling left behind.

[rhorle]

I think the crux of his issue with catch up is that he seems to feel like the time he puts in is invalidated too easily later on. I don't feel the same way, but I understand where he's coming from. Ultimately, catch-up mechanics are a necessary evil because I believe the psychology of players prevents them from engaging in "Old" content in an enjoyable manner if everyone else is far ahead of them. No one likes feeling left behind.

Sure. It is a valid concern. But at the same time Blizzard has been offering catch ups for majority of the game in one form or another. So it seems a little late to use that as a point of enjoyment and something that won't be covered by game design regardless as it speaks more to things on the player end of acceptance then the game end of rewards/investment.

[TurtleDon]

So let me get this straight rather than make the logical decision to move on you you want to vent your frustrations and expect everyone to take sympathy on topic 10000001.0?

Seems to me that if you don’t enjoy something you should not do it? What do they call that.. when you do the same thing over again and over and over and over expecting something different? Oh yeah insanity! Or maybe in your case just stupid. I’m referring to the fact you called it Legion 3.0 which by semantic versioning would suggest it’s the 3rd major release. Ibid Paragraph 1 sentence 3. So the facts are supporting the argument for insanity. I suppose your response will provide better data point to compare with.

Also stop contradicting yourself if you tell us that you aren’t happy and then you continue to complain you just sound ungrateful & entitled and your still playing!

Seems to me you enjoy looking at the cup half empty. No one forces you to play and if all you do is complain, you ruin the community and the game and the fun for everyone else by writing meaningless, angry unproductive rants.

Oh ya and btw my Dads a Doctor Cop Paramedic Firefighter President and could beat up your Dad; In case you were wanting to measure e-peans.. you seem like the type.

Good for you, and you are free to.

I see WoW as potentially still a game I enjoy, so I would prefer to talk about what would be better for the game in my opinion, thanks.

[Necrosaro123]

Sure. It is a valid concern. But at the same time Blizzard has been offering catch ups for majority of the game in one form or another. So it seems a little late to use that as a point of enjoyment and something that won't be covered by game design regardless as it speaks more to things on the player end of acceptance then the game end of rewards/investment.

It's not only about rewards/investment, it's also about the content itself (Lore, characters, dungeons & raids, etc). Most of Shadowland looks lame and boring af. I return every now and then to MMO-Champ, expecting to see something new or interesting for playing Shadowlands, but sadly 9.0.5 and 9.1 looks so bad, that there is not even a small chance for me to even play that.

Just to resume this "madness" in MMO-Champ, there are more post that are "negative" toward Shadowlands, that actually positive ones.

Now...Why i played BFA?. Simple: Zandalari and Dark Iron Dwarves. The endgame content was bad, but at least the new races made it fun to play alts. Also Mechagon was not that bad after all, it felt like Timeless Island 2.0.

Anyways....I didn't played Shadowlands, before BFA ended, i moved to Elder Scrolls Online and it has been 1,000 times better than everything i have seen available in Shadowlands.

[Fleugen]

Seems to me that if you don’t enjoy something you should not do it?

Man, a one post account posting a nonsense rant that ultimately just says to do something I'm already doing?

I'm sure that's not a troll account. I did laugh at the last line at least.

[Amariw]

The issue is simply two things:

WORLD QUESTS and NO VISIBLE PROGRESSION!

World quests are the issue we have with WoW right now: Since they introduced World quests, we don't have quests that distinct from each other: Instead we just have world quests with 4-5 factions, and the zone you are in you need to do the same crap over and over and over again.

Instead of having distinguished questhubs that allows you to do other things like cloud serpend quests or netherwing and so on, it's just about talking head says this, talking head says that. An weekly some new Artefact/War Campaign/Convenant quests. That's all of it.

Having no quest hub where you can interact or having something that distinguish each other or allow you to simply do something different makes the game so boring as it is. MoP was maybe not everyones taste, but there was really so much different to do that's not tied to player power that actually made fun, and no, torghast is not it, since you can't progress in it from it. You will not get stronger from playing torgast; only when you do something else. And there is simply no progression.

And World Quests are the fault of it.

The fun story is that Legion was only so good BECAUSE you had in Suramar an dedicated quest hub, yes, there were world quests too, but you needed to do different things, there were so much hidden items, so much player progression, you could see in so many things you did a PROGRESSION, and we had NOTHING of it in BfA or Shadowlands.

There is no real progression in it: yes, you can unlock certain things, but the progression is simply not there, at least not in a way Suramar had it.

Let's see the most memorable patches and expansions we had for the open world:

1.9 We don't really need to say anything about AQ-Prequest: people can actually contribute and have again a visible progression server wide.
2.4; one of the best patches; we had an visible Player progression server wide.
MoP: we had an player progression through the farm, but also through cloud serpent quests and so on.
5.2; one of the best patches, we had an visible Player progression server wide. And we got to kill a lot of trolls, always a big winner.
WoD: yes, it sounds crazy, and they cut a lot of things, but beside that after the Release it was actually fun, the Garrison was fun, because you had what: visible player progression in the world. the issue was that because there were no new content and because they didn't improved it at all, it went downhill and the shit is now.
Legion: Suramar: one of the best zones ever, we had an visible player progression in the quest hub: you go in the quest hub, it is a dusty old cavern, it seems so dead and unused and more and more you can see how much better it goes.

Everything that don't exist anymore. Yes Legion introduced world quests, but it also introduced pvp world quests (never used after legion), and many things more.

And that's the issue both with BfA and Shadowlands: World Quests that doesn't add anything as another talking head that says what you need to do and no visible progression.

The progression per say is not something im as enthusiastic about as you, but i very much agree the lack of endgame chains which actually tell a story (outside of one measly covenant campaign) is a loss.

MoP had the reputations, the excellent 5.1 divine bell story (prolly the best rep grind i ever did), thunder isle's progressive chain and the grand story of garrosh's rise to power and corruption.

Not to mention the ton of interactable lore objects and texts that added so much room for speculation and immersion. WoD onwards had nothing near that level of world building.

MMOs are one of the best medium to tell lots of immersive stories, big and small. WoD onwards felt short of this, replaced with a movie-like focus on characters and repeatable, non story content like WQs. I don't think there's a good reason for this.

[Chaelexi]

"When is Blizzard going to stop making Legion over and over again and instead keep the last expansion's systems without adding new ones?"

I'm not sure what you expect from them

Funny part is he complains about them blowing everything up in one line and then complains in the next that they are improving on systems in the next line.

[Flatspriest]

I thought everyone knew that the 9th expansion is gonna be MoP 2.0.