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  1. #1

    Post Beast Mastery - Future improvements [Partial rework]

    Bringing this over from the official forums. Original post: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-rework/885639

    I know this is a big overkill in terms of suggestions for a 0.5 patch(any mid-expansion patch really). But I though I’d take another look at what I would like to see from Beast Mastery in the future, based on it’s current design.

    Some things, such as a lack of potential single-target burst, cleave, or burst AoE/AoE in general, have been mentioned by others in regards to the spec several times both recently and further back in time. Along with the “squishy” nature of Hunters. Hopefully, some of the things mentioned below can address those issues.

    Remember that any specific numbers written are just there to give context/further the concept.
    Obviously some testing/tuning would be required to make it work in-game.


    Core Abilities

    [Cobra Shot] - 35 Focus - Instant cast
    A quick shot causing X Physical damage.

    Reduces the cooldown of Kill Command by 1 sec.

    [Kill Command] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 7.5 sec cooldown
    Give the command to kill, causing your pet to savagely deal X Physical damage to the enemy.

    [Barbed Shot] - Instant cast - 12 sec recharge - 2 Charges
    Fire a shot that tears through your enemy, causing them to bleed for X damage over 8 sec.

    Sends your pet into a frenzy, increasing attack speed by 30% for 8 sec, stacking up to 3 times.

    Generates 20 Focus over 8 sec.

    [Multi-Shot] - 40 Focus - Instant cast
    Fires several missiles, hitting up to 5 targets within 8 yards of your current target for X Physical damage.

    The Focus cost of your next Kill Command is reduced by 5 for each enemy you hit with Multi-Shot.

    Casting Multi-Shot activates Beast Cleave(Passive)

    [A Murder of Crows] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 1 min cooldown
    Summons a flock of crows to attack your target, dealing X Physical damage over 20 sec.

    If the target dies while under attack, A Murder of Crows’ cooldown is reset.


    Class-wide abilities

    [Kill Shot] - 10 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 1 Charges
    You attempt to finish off a wounded target, dealing X Physical damage.
    Only usable on enemies with less than 20% health.


    Major Cooldown

    [Bestial Wrath] - Instant - 1.5 min cooldown
    Sends you and your pet into a rage, instantly dealing X Physical damage to its target, and increasing all damage you both deal by 25% for 20 sec.

    Bestial Wrath’s remaining cooldown is reduced by 12 sec each time you use Barbed Shot/Dire Beast.

    The Focus cost of all abilities is reduced by X% while Bestial Wrath is active.


    Mastery

    [Mastery: Master of Beasts] - Increases the damage done by your pets and summoned creatures by X%, and the damage bonus of Bestial Wrath by Y%.


    Passive Effects

    [Animal Companion] - You may call 1 additional pet to fight for you at all times. The second pet will obey your Kill Command, but cannot use pet family abilities.

    If you have two active pets, they both use the same damaging abilities and benefit from the same effects but they only deal 50% of normal damage(each).

    Only using 1 pet instead causes that pet to deal 100% of normal damage.

    [Beast Cleave] - After you Multi-Shot, your pet’s melee attacks and Kill Command also strike up to 5 other nearby enemy targets for 75% as much for the next 5 sec.

    [Exotic Beasts] - You master the art of beast training, teaching you the ability to tame Exotic pets.

    [Kindred Spirits] - Increases your maximum Focus and your pet’s maximum Focus by 20.

    [Pack Tactics] - Passive Focus generation increased by 100%.

    [Wild Call] - Your Auto Shot critical strikes have a 25% chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot/Dire Beast.


    Utility/defensives

    Includes all other abilities, such as [Tar Trap][Frost Trap][Aspect of the Turtle][Concussive Shot][Counter Shot][Tranquilizing Shot][Misdirection][Pet Utility][Exhilaration][Disengage][Feign Death], and more.

    Note that I would prefer if(on a class-wide basis)

    [Posthaste] - becomes a baseline effect.
    [Master’s Call] - comes back as a baseline ability.
    [Pet Specializations] - Ferocity, Tenacity, and Cunning were changeable.
    [Revive Pet] - Cast time brought down to 2 seconds again.
    [Camouflage] - comes back as a baseline ability.


    Talents

    – Level 15 –


    [Killer Instinct] - Kill Command deals 45% increased damage against enemies below 35% health.

    Kill Command deals an additional 10% damage against bleeding targets.
    [Bloodshed] - 50 yd range - Instant - 1 min cooldown
    Command your pet(s) to tear into your target, causing your target to bleed for X damage over 18 sec, and increase all damage taken from your pet(s) by 15% for 18 sec.
    [Dire Beast] - (Replaces Barbed Shot) - Instant - 12 sec recharge - 2 Charges
    Summons a powerful wild beast that attacks the target for 8 sec.

    Generates 20 Focus over 8 sec.


    – Level 25 –


    [Scent of Blood] - Activating Bestial Wrath grants 2 charges of Barbed Shot/Dire Beast.
    [One with the Pack] - Wild Call has a 20% increased chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot/Dire Beast.

    Using Barbed Shot/Dire Beast increases your Haste by 5% for 12 sec.
    [Feeding Frenzy] - Damage dealt by Barbed Shot increased by X%. When the periodic damage effect applied by Barbed Shot is refreshed, the remaining damage will be added to the new effect, and it now lasts for a total of 9 sec. In addition, Frenzy’s duration is also increased to 9 seconds.

    Dire Frenzy(Requires talent: Dire Beast)
    Each time a Dire Beast is called, the damage dealt by your main pet(s) is increased by 1%.
    When you activate Bestial Wrath, this consumes all stacks of Dire Frenzy and increases the initial damage dealt by Bestial Wrath by 30% for each stack that is consumed.


    – Level 30 –


    [Trailblazer] - [Natural Mending]
    [Bestial Dicipline] - While your pet is active, you and your pet(s) regenerate X% of total health every 3 sec. Healing done to you and your pet(s) is increased by X%.

    Damage taken by your pet(s) is reduced by 15%


    – Level 35 –


    [Spitting Cobra] - Bestial Wrath also summons a Spitting Cobra to aid you in combat for 15 sec. Each Cobra Shot used during Bestial Wrath extends the remaining duration of the Spitting Cobra by 1 sec.
    [Thrill of the Hunt] - Barbed Shot/Dire Beast reduces the remaining cooldown of Bestial Wrath by an additional 4 sec.

    Barbed Shot/Dire Beast increases your critical strike chance by 5% for 12 seconds.
    [Birds of Prey] - Kill Command extends the remaining duration of A Murder of Crows by 2 sec.

    Damage of A Murder of Crows is increased by X%.


    – Level 40 –


    [Born to be Wild] - [Binding Shot]
    [Adaption] - (Replaces Posthaste) Getting hit with an incapacitating effect(Stun/Fear), reduces the *remaining* cooldown of your Aspect of the Turtle by 30%. This effect has an internal cooldown of X sec.

    Aspect of the Turtle is now usable when incapacitated.

    When rooted or slowed, the *remaining* cooldown of Aspect of the Cheetah is reduced by 15 seconds. Aspect of the Cheetah frees you from movement impairing effects and you cannot be slowed below 100% movement speed while it's active.


    – Level 45 –


    [Stomp] - When you cast Barbed Shot/Dire Beast, your pet stomps the ground, dealing X Physical damage to all nearby enemies.
    [Chimaera Shot] - Instant cast - 15 sec cooldown
    A two-headed shot that hits your primary target and another nearby target, dealing X Nature damage to one and X Frost damage to the other.

    Generates 10 Focus for each target hit.
    [Talon Frenzy] - While Beast Cleave is active, A Murder of Crows affects up to 8 enemies near the primary target.


    – Level 50 –


    [Aspect of the Beast] - Increases the damage and healing of your pet’s abilities by 30%.

    Increases the effectiveness of your pet’s Predator’s Thirst, Endurance Training, and Pathfinding passives by 50%.
    [Stampede] - Instant cast - 2 min cooldown
    Summons 5 of your stabled pets to fight for you for 30 sec. These pets deal X% of normal damage and obey your Kill Command.

    Pets summoned by Stampede heal themselves for 200% of the damage they deal.
    [Unleashed Fury] - Instant cast - 20 sec cooldown
    Sends your pet into a rage, causing it to deal X Physical damage to the target in a flurry of 5 attacks. Damage dealt is increased by X% for every stack of Frenzy the pet currently has.

    When this ability is used, your pet will let out a savage roar, increasing your haste by 10% for 12 sec.

    Bestial Fury(Requires talent: Dire Beast)
    Damage dealt by Dire Beasts during Bestial Wrath is increased by another X%.
    Any Dire Beasts called during Bestial Wrath will have their duration increased by an additonal X sec. This also applies to Dire Beasts who have already been called to fight when Bestial Wrath is activated. Attacks made by Dire Beasts will now also benefit from Beast Cleave, if activated.

    Changelog
    2021-02-27

    • Changed the design of the Mastery-effect to no longer include Beast Cleave and instead now also provides a benefit to non pet-based attacks.
    • Increased the base duration of Beast Cleave from 4 sec, up to 5.
    • Increased the duration of the crit bonus effect gained from Thrill of the Hunt from 8 sec. up to 12.
    • Talent: Barrage, has been removed and the talent: Chimaera Shot has taken it’s place/moved there. Purpose was for cleaving-capabilities and choices for such, to be made in relation to choices for AoE.
    • The talent: Feeding Frenzy, has taken the place of Chimaera Shot on the second row. The intent is for that entire row to be focused on Frenzy-maintenance/Dire Beast-management.

    2021-03-02

    • Changed the Mastery-effect. It no longer includes a variable bonus to the Wild Call proc chance. It now instead has a secondary effect focused on improving Bestial Wrath.
    • The base proc-chance of Wild Call has been increased to 25%, up from 20%.
    • Talent choices on the level 50-row no longer include passive effects tied to healing taken/self-sustainability by you or your pet(s).
    • Changed the design of the talent: Adaption slightly, lowered the CDR for Aspect of the Turtle to 30%, down from 40%. Also clarified that it should have an internal cooldown on proccing the effect.
    • Talent: Bestial Dicipline has been moved from the level 50-row to 30, and it has been redesigned to focus solely on self-sustainability.
    • Added a new talent to the level 50-row in the form of Unleashed Fury.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2021-05-14 at 03:39 PM.

  2. #2
    The one thing I would like them to go back to is, is being able to change specialization of the pet.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tcoll71 View Post
    The one thing I would like them to go back to is, is being able to change specialization of the pet.
    That's a big one for me as well, indeed.

    Right now, depending on what we need mechanically, we are restricted to a select few types of pets/pet families. And the thing is, pet specs have nothing to do with pet types/families anyway...

    As for BM itself, I find that more is needed, long term. Hence why I made the suggestions above.

    BM's sustained single-target damage isn't great, but it's not too far behind. It's specifically how we lack throughput when it comes to short-term burst + AoE burst. And, we also lack cleaving capabilities and sustained AoE-throughput as well.

    My goal with the suggested changes above, is to mainly address these problems. Along with a lack of survivability, both for us and for our pets, depending on what type of content we engage in. In PvE as an example, the Hunter class is generally the "squishiest" one by a clear margain.

    Some of my suggestions are more aimed at providing a better structure for our talents and what choices we can make, both in terms of individual themes, but also in terms of performance-based choices.

  4. #4
    Pretty nice, always fun to read imrovement threads on hunter classes.

    A few problems I notice immediately though:

    Really not sure what you want out of Animal Companion being baseline. It's a nice bit of flavor, sure, but it really feels like it needs something to actually make it a tangible difference in gameplay, even if it is a minor one, otherwise you might as well make it a pure flavor ability where the hunter simply summons a pet that doesnt do damage.

    Camouflage should not be baseline for BM, it's really only iin flavor for Survival hunters. BM really isnt the spec that needs or should get Camouflage baseline.
    Thick Hide is a really underwhelming talent, and I doubt anyone would pick it except for the most fringe cases where pet tanking is extremely difficult, it seems far better suited as a Torghast Anima power than anything.
    Adaptation also seems like it would be immensely powerful in reducing the cooldown of Turtle, especially when you consider how many boss mechanics are trivialized by a team of hunters with immunities. Consider for instance how massive that ability would be on Stone Legion Generals. The aspect fo the cheetah part is fine though.
    The final row all giving self heals also doesnt seem like it really fits there. The return of old Stampede would be greatly appreciated though. Though the last ability only buffing damage by a flat % during Bestial Wrath seems very lackluster for the final row.

    Overall I am also not clear on what exactly BM's weakness is supposed to be. In PvP it can be vulnerability to having the pet die, but in PvE that doesnt really happen unless you do something very wrong. Maybe if the soluition to BM squishiness was a passive that sshared your damage with the pet, requiring occassional ressurects I really can't see it.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  5. #5
    First off, thanks for the reply!

    I'm gonna split your different points up to better address each one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    A few problems I notice immediately though:

    Really not sure what you want out of Animal Companion being baseline. It's a nice bit of flavor, sure, but it really feels like it needs something to actually make it a tangible difference in gameplay, even if it is a minor one, otherwise you might as well make it a pure flavor ability where the hunter simply summons a pet that doesnt do damage.
    The intent with Animal Companion is more or less to make it similar to what Lone Wolf is for MM.

    In short, it's supposed to be a passive effect that just activates whenever you decide to manually call out a second main pet(that now being a possibility if they choose to go through with this change).

    Essentially, if you only use 1 active main pet, that pet deals what you'd call "normal damage". If you instead choose to also call out a second main pet, a passive aura will take into effect, causing the total amount of damage dealt by your pet to be split between both of them. That part would work just like it does now when we pick the talent Animal Companion.

    Just that in the case above, it wouldn't be a boost to our damage, nor a decrease.

    It's purely intended as a flavor thing, to allow for players to pick whichever option they prefer without it having an impact on their performance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Camouflage should not be baseline for BM, it's really only iin flavor for Survival hunters. BM really isnt the spec that needs or should get Camouflage baseline.
    Camouflage was introduced to the game as a baseline ability, for the entire class. Whether thematically Survival fits the best for it, the ability has never been a spec-exclusive thing. Nor should it ever be, IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Thick Hide is a really underwhelming talent, and I doubt anyone would pick it except for the most fringe cases where pet tanking is extremely difficult, it seems far better suited as a Torghast Anima power than anything.
    Depending on how the numbers are tuned, it has the potential to be quite strong, both in solo content, in certain niche group-based PvE scenarios, and last but not least, PvP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Adaptation also seems like it would be immensely powerful in reducing the cooldown of Turtle, especially when you consider how many boss mechanics are trivialized by a team of hunters with immunities. Consider for instance how massive that ability would be on Stone Legion Generals. The aspect fo the cheetah part is fine though.
    Note that it specifically says that "it reduces the remaining cooldown of Aspect of the Turtle".

    What does that mean?

    In short, if you're stunned/feared just after you've already used Turtle, this will essentially take away 40% of the total cooldown.

    If you then after say...20 seconds...get stunned or feared again, it will only reduce whatever is left of the cooldown by 40%, meaning it has less and less value the lower your remaining cooldown of Turtle is, at the time of getting hit with a stun/fear.

    Example: If you're stunned/feared when Turtle has a 10 second cooldown left, it will only reduce it by another 4 seconds total, meaning you'll then have 6 seconds left before it's ready again.

    Having said that, if there needs to be some sort of hidden internal cooldown of that particular proc in order for it not to be overpowered, by all means.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The final row all giving self heals also doesnt seem like it really fits there.
    Hunters are currently by far the "squishiest" class in general. Take PvE as an example, the first ones to die in cases of high amounts of incoming damage, are hunters, unless focused on by healers.

    Having said that, why doesn't it fit? In your opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The return of old Stampede would be greatly appreciated though. Though the last ability only buffing damage by a flat % during Bestial Wrath seems very lackluster for the final row.
    The aim with the final row, apart from help hunters with more survivability in the later stages of the game, is to provide meaningful options for boosting their throughput.


    [Aspect of the Beast] works like it does on live, just with the added healing taken effect.


    [Stampede] is intended as a second major cooldown which has the potential to actually impact your gameplay in various ways. (Note that I've removed Aspect of the Wild, due to it being massively underwhelming to use). Why is this an optional choice then when Aspect of the Wild isn't? Because not everyone would want to use it. Which is only natural really, hence the multiple choices.


    [Bestial Dicipline] is meant as the passive choice for those who would prefer the increased potential for burst damage that it brings(in the form of a substantially more powerful Bestial Wrath). Aspect of the Beast is also a passive choice on that row, but it's entirely passive and has no real burst-potential to speak of.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Overall I am also not clear on what exactly BM's weakness is supposed to be. In PvP it can be vulnerability to having the pet die, but in PvE that doesnt really happen unless you do something very wrong. Maybe if the soluition to BM squishiness was a passive that sshared your damage with the pet, requiring occassional ressurects I really can't see it.
    Having something like that as a part of your gameplay requirements, in PvE, would essentially only serve to make players furious. No other class has something like that to deal with.

    As for weaknesses? In PvE?

    We still wouldn't have more than slightly above average burst, compared to other classes(compared to now where we're more or less at the bottom in all areas).

    We would still lack the possiblity to multi-dot several enemies at once. A strength only really known to casters, especially when enemies are spread out.

    Our sustained ST damage would more or less be the same as it is now, ofc depending on numbers tuning.

    When it comes to AoE and burst AoE, as long as enemies are stacked closely together, this would now be a strength of the spec rather than a major weakness, again, as seen on live atm.

    In short, the spec already has too many weaknesses. What we need are some additional strengths.



    Apart from that, I cannot go into more detail as that would require us to be able to actually try/test the new design in-game.

    Anyway, thanks again for your reply and hopefully I answered some things. Feel free to get back to me if you have more questions!
    Last edited by F Rm; 2021-03-01 at 10:56 PM.

  6. #6
    One of the best things they could do is dropping hunters back to a 1 sec GCD since they now use basically the exact same resource as Rogues do.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  7. #7
    I just want Torgast to be more balanced for BM, give us better powers and actually give us anima powers which benefit our pets

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    Bringing this over from the official forums. Original post: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-rework/885639-snip-
    Can we remove Wild Call please? Having Barbed shot reset off Auto Crits is just nonsense design at this point.

    Just last night I'm pulling Xymox, I get 3 Wild Call procs in the first 8 seconds. All the focus gained was lost as its better to bleed off stacks for bestial CDR than to focus dump with KC. Blegh.
    Next pull, no resets for near 4 minutes. Yaaay.

    It wouldn't be so bad if, like you said it got redesigned maybe, something like "Your Auto Shots have a baseline chance of x to proc wildcall, increased by Mastery"
    at least then it isn't as it is now, Auto Crits having a chance since this scales off Haste and Crit and you get what we had in 8.3, massive scaling issues.

    Murder of crows is a cool idea, but I feel it should have a baked in utility since the damage component is awful and feels very passive.
    Maybe work like old Insect Swarm, target loses % chance to hit as they're "Blinded" by the crows, reduced duration in PvP?

    Baseline Stampede would be great for flavor and AoE Burst CD, as well as a baseline Spitting Cobra. These effects don't need to do a lot, but being able to have 2 pets, throw crows at people that peck whilst stampeding and big ol snakes spitting poison? Yeah it could be visual clutter at times but I'd like that.
    IIRC that's how spitting cobra worked at least in BC, you got a snake over your head that spit at people. More of that please!

    Overall good ideas, sorry if I posted redundancy, didn't get to read every line.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    It rewards cowardly and low-skillcap gameplay.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    One of the best things they could do is dropping hunters back to a 1 sec GCD since they now use basically the exact same resource as Rogues do.
    Not that I would mind it if that happened. But other than the Rogue-thing, why do you want the GCD to be lowered? Gameplay flow?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post

    -snipped since I don't know how to chop up a quote into smaller bits easily-
    Animal Companion in this proposed version isnt at all like Lone Wolf though. With Lone Wold you are given a tangible difference that has you trade more flexible DPS for utility, there are distinct cases where a hunter would choose to use it or not.
    With Animal Companion there isnt really a tangible difference. I do wholeheartedly agree that BM should be allowed to have 2 pets since that is a difference form the other hunter specs that really stands out, but if that is all it needs to do then it might as well just be a glyph that summons a pet that doesnt do damage, the net difference would be the same.


    Camouflage is a really good cooldown, even more so now that M+ is a thing. While I do want the ability back in general I feel like it might upset the M+ meta too much, which is why I think it should only be given baseline to Survival to make it more appealing.


    For Thick Hide. Again, only useful in niche cases. What is a general scenario where you could see it be significantly better than the ability that reduces the cooldown of Exhiliration that I might remind you heals your pet to full.


    The problem is specifically the 40% cooldown reduction each time. It hasdiminishing returns for sure, but the baseline is also immensely powerful. Turtle has a 3 minute cooldown. On average the cooldown reduction would be in excess of half a minute. In PvP if you are stunned twice immediately after using hte ability you would lower the cooldown by over almost 2 minutes.
    Personally I would perhaps change it to something like "The cooldown of Aspect of the Turtle ticks down 500% faster while stunned or incapacitated". That way the cooldown reduction is more consistent.


    As for the heals I feel the final row should be focused on making you better at your role. Hunters are squishy maybe, but they are still DPS. And the final row should emphasize that without having to share space with heals.


    As for strengths and weaknesses. Surely the strenght of BM should be sustained damage bolstered by being the only fully mobile ranged DPS.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #11
    Why are you wasting your time on this? Do you even realize that Blizzard doesn't give one flying fuck what you think? Even if they do plan on changes, they have their own metrics and ideas, they don't need your thoughts.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    Not that I would mind it if that happened. But other than the Rogue-thing, why do you want the GCD to be lowered? Gameplay flow?
    So I can have a ranged class to play for one. lol I can't stand GCDs higher than 1 sec, or cast times. But yes, it would also be better gameplay for BM to have a 1 sec gcd.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Animal Companion in this proposed version isnt at all like Lone Wolf though.
    I did not mean that it has the same effects as Lone Wolf does.

    I only meant that the intent is for it to be purely a flavor/aesthetic effect/choice. Not one of damage(in terms of increasing/decreasing it).

    Lone Wolf for MM, sure, does have some impact on your damage in certain cases. But the main goal with LW when they put it in was to allow players who wanted to, to skip using a pet altogether, for various reasons ofc.

    With Animal Companion, I want the same choice for players who play BM. Without them having to factor in damage into their decision.

    I still want the second pet to actually be taking part in dealing damage, and I do believe others want that as well, thus I feel that a glyph will not be a very good solution for this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Camouflage is a really good cooldown, even more so now that M+ is a thing. While I do want the ability back in general I feel like it might upset the M+ meta too much, which is why I think it should only be given baseline to Survival to make it more appealing.
    Why would it "upset the M+ meta too much" ?

    It's already class-wide, just that it's a talent choice atm. And the talent that I suggested to take it's place, will not exactly be such a massive improvement, at least not enough to achieve something like that.

    Also, why should it suddenly become a spec-exclusive element? It has never been so in the past and nothing speaks in favor of such a change either. Other than personal preferences ofc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    For Thick Hide. Again, only useful in niche cases. What is a general scenario where you could see it be significantly better than the ability that reduces the cooldown of Exhiliration that I might remind you heals your pet to full.
    I've made quite a few changes to the initial post, including the redesign of this talent.

    Feel free to check the change-log for what has been altered.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The problem is specifically the 40% cooldown reduction each time. It hasdiminishing returns for sure, but the baseline is also immensely powerful. Turtle has a 3 minute cooldown. On average the cooldown reduction would be in excess of half a minute. In PvP if you are stunned twice immediately after using hte ability you would lower the cooldown by over almost 2 minutes.
    Personally I would perhaps change it to something like "The cooldown of Aspect of the Turtle ticks down 500% faster while stunned or incapacitated". That way the cooldown reduction is more consistent.
    As with the above, I've made some changes to the initial post.

    Some of them includes this talent as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    As for the heals I feel the final row should be focused on making you better at your role. Hunters are squishy maybe, but they are still DPS. And the final row should emphasize that without having to share space with heals.
    Final row has been changed quite a bit, including the removal of these effects tied to self-sustainability.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    As for strengths and weaknesses. Surely the strenght of BM should be sustained damage bolstered by being the only fully mobile ranged DPS.
    First off, we don't have to be limited to having just 1 strength. And, why in particular do you want it to be sustained damage-throughput? It's rarely something that is very useful, neither in PvE, nor in PvP. Note that the suggested changes in my concept wouldn't by any means make us the best at everything there is.

    Secondly, unlimited mobility isn't really that big of an advantage anymore. Especially not in PvE. Very(extremely) few bosses exist where this could be argued to be a big
    enough advantage to have a real impact on our preformance over other classes/specs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Can we remove Wild Call please? Having Barbed shot reset off Auto Crits is just nonsense design at this point.

    Just last night I'm pulling Xymox, I get 3 Wild Call procs in the first 8 seconds. All the focus gained was lost as its better to bleed off stacks for bestial CDR than to focus dump with KC. Blegh.
    Next pull, no resets for near 4 minutes. Yaaay.

    It wouldn't be so bad if, like you said it got redesigned maybe, something like "Your Auto Shots have a baseline chance of x to proc wildcall, increased by Mastery"
    at least then it isn't as it is now, Auto Crits having a chance since this scales off Haste and Crit and you get what we had in 8.3, massive scaling issues.
    Honestly, at this point I think it would be a misstake to remove it. I'd rather make changes to where it flows better by default as well as having additional options through talents to improve it even more. Especially as I also want them to give us back the choice between Barbed Shot(Frenzy-maintenance) and Dire Beast.


    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Murder of crows is a cool idea, but I feel it should have a baked in utility since the damage component is awful and feels very passive.
    Maybe work like old Insect Swarm, target loses % chance to hit as they're "Blinded" by the crows, reduced duration in PvP?
    If A Murder of Crows should have something suited for PvP, perhaps, although I'm not convinced that it should be implemented as a baseline element. Also, considering that Crows is an ability with somewhat of a lengthy CD, how good would that reduced hit-chance actually be overall? Better than nothing obviously but...isn't there a better place to put something like that into the spec(or class)?


    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Baseline Stampede would be great for flavor and AoE Burst CD, as well as a baseline Spitting Cobra. These effects don't need to do a lot, but being able to have 2 pets, throw crows at people that peck whilst stampeding and big ol snakes spitting poison? Yeah it could be visual clutter at times but I'd like that.
    IIRC that's how spitting cobra worked at least in BC, you got a snake over your head that spit at people. More of that please!
    The reason I did not put Stampede in as a baseline replacement to Aspect of the Wild(which I removed entirely), is because not everyone want to deal with loads of pets(crazy I know!).

    I very much agree that the more pets/beasts, the better!

    But yeah, again, personal preferences and all that.


    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Overall good ideas, sorry if I posted redundancy, didn't get to read every line.
    Feel free to take another look at it^^

    I made quite a few changes to the concept since last you looked at it(based on feedback from here and from elsewhere as well).


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    So I can have a ranged class to play for one. lol I can't stand GCDs higher than 1 sec, or cast times. But yes, it would also be better gameplay for BM to have a 1 sec gcd.
    Fair enough.

  14. #14
    Or just give a +% dmg, 5% was fine but its not enough

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    Or just give a +% dmg, 5% was fine but its not enough
    5% was something that was _taken_from was in a prepatch (god knows why). I do not consider it to be a proper or real buff as such.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    Or just give a +% dmg, 5% was fine but its not enough
    While I won't say no to a damage increase, in whatever form it comes, what BM needs isn't cross-board numbers as much as it needs something that can make us stronger in specific scenarios.

    ST burst, cleave/burst cleave, AoE/burst AoE are areas where we fall behind in quite a bit.

    Giving us a flat 5% bonus to damage, isn't really going to address that.

    The proposed changes in the OP are essentially meant to provide an increased output for when it might be needed. As well as providing more interesting and impactful choices for us to pick between. Choices that can help us build a deeper identity for our characters.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2021-03-19 at 08:37 AM.

  17. #17
    Just give us a new cooldown to buff kill command like 50% to fix our lack of priority target burst and remove the aoe cap on beast cleave and bm will be fine

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    Just give us a new cooldown to buff kill command like 50% to fix our lack of priority target burst and remove the aoe cap on beast cleave and bm will be fine
    It's not just about numbers.

    Besides, adding another CD to buff a specific ability for X amount of time wouldn't do much to fix that. It will do some ofc, but that wouldn't be enough.

    Removing the target cap on BC would be a start, but it doesn't address the issue of our lack of burst AoE. BC attacks don't do much in shorter windows.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    It's not just about numbers.

    Besides, adding another CD to buff a specific ability for X amount of time wouldn't do much to fix that. It will do some ofc, but that wouldn't be enough.

    Removing the target cap on BC would be a start, but it doesn't address the issue of our lack of burst AoE. BC attacks don't do much in shorter windows.
    Let the kill command cd also make your beast cleave spread kill command on different targets. St and aoe burst cd

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    Let the kill command cd also make your beast cleave spread kill command on different targets. St and aoe burst cd
    Indeed.

    You can find this function within the original post/concept. I'ts mentioned under Passive Effects -> Beast Cleave.

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