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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    He's still made zero mention of the story being "great"
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    He doesn't need to. The point he was making is that a multi-dimensional, layered story IS great writing AND that the Warcraft IP has never reached this height, I replied and said that I don't think a multi-dimensional, layered story is great writing, but rather average. That is the only disagreement of worth shared by us. My core point of WC3 having had much better storytelling than WoW was never actually challenged by him, because he never compared the two directly. So, your point is moot...

  2. #122
    Also, what happened to BfA cinematics?

    Why are we getting animated gif-like comic strips instead?

  3. #123
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Sure, he was uber special, pulling special powers out of his rear, getting loved by everyone (well, I guess SI:7 didn't, but since it didn't have any consequences, it can be safely dismissed) and showing up everywhere. Him requiring aid doesn't make him any less of a Mary Sue, or why do you think that he earned the moniker of Green Jesus at that time?



    No, he doesn't. Dude was a better fighter than f***ing Garrosh, a better military commander than Tyrande, despite having no military training whatsoever, a better father than Durotan, a wiser leader than Velen. None of his flaws impeded him in the slightest, so we can safely conclude that they were purely cosmetic.



    Dude, are you sure you played during BfA? Anduin is always right during BfA, has no flaws (or at least, none that actually impedes him, much like his father), everyone loves him except the obviously EvVvUuL Sylvanas, and even Tyrande, who has legitimate reasons to be... let's say upset with him, is being depicted as edgy, even irrational. And now he's mind controlled, or w/e... That isn't even his fault lol, what character development will come out of that? I hope he won't revert to his old, self righteous self once we (presumably) free him, that would really cement his status as the biggest Sue in the current lore.



    She got away with EVERYTHING, even if she is dumb as a brick. The Jailor is empowered, her enemies from BfA are broken and hopeless, and she's still going to get redeemed so that she can come dry off the downpour. You aren't paying too much attention, are you?



    It is you who's missing the point. Of course writers can pull some lame explanation out of their collective ass and call it a day, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense or that it has had a proper buildup. Especially since she was rewritten like 4 times in as many years.
    1. What special powers has he pulled out of his ass? Be specific here. He wasn't loved by everyone. He actually had to get people to trust him. Shocking, I know. And he never showed up everything. What are you on about with that? The guy wasn't in Uldum, he wasn't in Vashj'ir, and he wasn't at the Firelands raid. The hell?

    2. Varian has shown tons of years as a gladiator, and has led the Alliance to victory on multiple occasions. Him outmatching Tyrande in command is not a sign of a Gary Stu, since he's literally bred as a warrior and leader. Tyrande isn't perfect either. You'll find that age is not a factor in regards to leadership. Also, "no military training"? What the fuck are you talking about? And where does it say that he was a better fighter than Garrosh? Can I see proof of your claims? Durotan wasn't even given the chance to BE a father before he fuckin died, and Velen was only a mid leader because of his insane faith in the Light, which luckily got rebuked in Legion, and now Velen's a fucking chad of a leader.

    3. Genn, Tyrande, the Dwarves, etc all doubted Anduin. Legion, Before the Storm, and Shadows Rising literally provide Anduin multiple cases where people have doubted him as leader, and have even just straight up disagreed with him. So, no. Not to mention he has lost multiple times aswell. Talanji and co escaped, Lordaeron wasn't saved, Tyrande has Anduin on mute, etc. His only real victory was the whole Saurfang shit, and that was more so diplomatic than anything, really. Oh, and Arathi. But, that's it.

    4. Nothing is stated she's getting "redeemed". This is just speculation. And no, like I mentioned earlier, she doesn't "get away with everything". We haven't even actually encountered her yet. This would be like arguing "WELL, KJ GOT AWAY WITH EVERYTHING AGAINST THE DRAENEI FOR COUNTLESS YEARS! THAT MEANS HE IS A GARY STU" like no. That's not how it works. KJ and Sylvanas have both been defeated in their own rights, and they both will likely get their rightful deaths. Tho, Sylvanas will probably go out trying to stop the Jailer. Nothing wrong with thinking this. But this is me assuming, and nothing more. No more of a bigger assumption than your weird ass "redemption" claims.

    5. "but that doesn't mean that it makes sense or that it has had a proper buildup." Sure it can. Just say she started getting her amps since the Edge of Night book, which was why she had such massive ties with Helya in Legion, etc. Nothing too crazy there. Also, how has she been rewritten 4 times? Wot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Wu View Post
    He doesn't need to. The point he was making is that a multi-dimensional, layered story IS great writing AND that the Warcraft IP has never reached this height, I replied and said that I don't think a multi-dimensional, layered story is great writing, but rather average. That is the only disagreement of worth shared by us. My core point of WC3 having had much better storytelling than WoW was never actually challenged by him, because he never compared the two directly. So, your point is moot...
    My point wasn't on him comparing the two, and saying which one was "better" anyhow, because you're right, he never challenged that opinion head on really, so idk why you're applying random words to my posts. Also, no, that's not what he was saying. He was saying that the story of WoW is just fine being a layered story with multi dimensional elements. Not that it was "great" or anything like that. He even says that Warcraft PEAKED ages ago, and that it was average at best. Pretty sure he was actually kind of agreeing with you, tbh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Also, what happened to BfA cinematics?

    Why are we getting animated gif-like comic strips instead?
    What are you talking about?

  4. #124
    The HOTStorm/SLands kel'thuzad is absolutely horrible, he constantly yells like a dumbass and his lines are coming from an 8y old.

    KZad had a phenomenal voice in War3 and overall was a cold/cool (pun intended) villain that genocides people while whispering sweet words.

    Overall the SL villains are beyond awful and the story does not create any interest to follow it.
    Sire Denathrius had some charm and wit but he got canned in raid 1 while ZOVAAL or whatever his detergent name is still mucking around with his BFF everyone is sick of.

  5. #125
    Old God Orby's Avatar
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    Give OP credit, he's not blaming Sylvanas. We thinking outside the box now

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Perhaps they should hire more warhammer authors as that is most likely the only time someone is going to make the villains feel like acual villans and a threat in wow.
    Careful what you wish for, Blizzard monkey paw might just hire C. S. Goto.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    I'd like to know what kind of fucking cartoons you all watched as a kid on a saturday morning
    Lets play the guessing game everyone! These are all actual Saturday Morning Cartoons I watched as a kid.

    1. A living biological weapon stabs and turns hundreds of thousands of people into flesh bags that he eats to get stronger. Genocide of multiple planets. Children getting the life violently beaten out of them.
    2. An entire colony of people are gassed and their home is dropped onto earth, wiping out Australia and accelerating climate change to drastic degrees. A young man whose father was betrayed and assassinated secretly plots from within to murder every member of the family that killed him. A 14-year-old boy is conscripted into being a murder machine because the adults are set on exploiting the next generation to continue their systems of oppression (a direct-cited theme from the series creator).
    3. A group of people who are genetically different must fight to survive in a world where purist zealots campaign to have them killed or corralled because of who they are. One of them is seemingly murdered in the first episode.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Careful what you wish for, Blizzard monkey paw might just hire C. S. Goto.
    Haha true.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    This entire post is dedicated to WoW lore being "utter garbage" and shit like that currently. The argument you're quoting was that Warcraft was always in a way generic and held some comedic factors into it (Yes, WC3 fuckin fits. The Pandaren, and other things like that can count as comedic). Since you're so defensive for WC3 when it's compared to modern WoW and how much it holds up to this day, I'm going to do the same by asking you how WoW lore is not as mature as WC3's.

    Is that ok enough for you? No one is being "fragile". Don't be dense here.
    You're not only misrepresenting the position of the person I initially quoted (they didn't claim WC3 had comedic factors they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium) but also ascribing positions to me that I neither expressed nor hold only to ask me to defend those positions.

    Once again you're displaying your striking inability to argue in good faith.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  10. #130
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    You're not only misrepresenting the position of the person I initially quoted (they didn't claim WC3 had comedic factors they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium) but also ascribing positions to me that I neither expressed nor hold only to ask me to defend those positions.

    Once again you're displaying your striking inability to argue in good faith.
    "they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium" In a way, it was. WC3 isn't the only RTS game from the original WC trilogy. The first 2 RTS games legit existed to be dumb, satirical medieval combat fun.

    Besides, you were kinda arguing against people that said "WoW has always been comedic and/or generic, even in the OG RTS games such as WC3". Idk why you merely took offense into WC3 being not all that clever, and being rather satirical (Cause it is at points), but that kinda implies to me that you think WoW fits the "Oh, it's satirical and comedic and totally not all mature" list, and not WC3. And I'm just lookin for reasons as to why you probably think this. Nothing lost in good faith at all. Hell, I'd argue I'm totally debating in good faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Lets play the guessing game everyone! These are all actual Saturday Morning Cartoons I watched as a kid.

    1. A living biological weapon stabs and turns hundreds of thousands of people into flesh bags that he eats to get stronger. Genocide of multiple planets. Children getting the life violently beaten out of them.
    2. An entire colony of people are gassed and their home is dropped onto earth, wiping out Australia and accelerating climate change to drastic degrees. A young man whose father was betrayed and assassinated secretly plots from within to murder every member of the family that killed him. A 14-year-old boy is conscripted into being a murder machine because the adults are set on exploiting the next generation to continue their systems of oppression (a direct-cited theme from the series creator).
    3. A group of people who are genetically different must fight to survive in a world where purist zealots campaign to have them killed or corralled because of who they are. One of them is seemingly murdered in the first episode.
    Would be helpful if I could know your age or something, so I could get a better idea on what shows you're talkin bout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Perhaps they should hire more warhammer authors as that is most likely the only time someone is going to make the villains feel like acual villans and a threat in wow.

    But yeah it was a good novel but William King knows his shit from being along time warhammer author.

    Though I did enjoy the Arthas story in wrath too.
    I doubt Warhammer guys can write characters that are more impressive than the Jailer, who apparently can end the entire Warcraft Verse if released from the Maw and given all the Pantheon of Death Keys.

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    And I doubt they can write guys that are stronger than beings that represent the Outer Gods (The Void Lords), and guys that supposedly made everything and apparently range above all the Cosmic Pantheons.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Would be helpful if I could know your age or something, so I could get a better idea on what shows you're talkin bout.
    I'm 30. The answers are not obscure in the slightest, some of the biggest name IPs of all time.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Why would we get the Kel'thuzad of Warcraft 3 when he hasn't been that since at least Wrath?
    Even earlier. We faced him in Vanilla and all he did was drive a floating rock and spread the plague as a cats paw.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    "they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium" In a way, it was. WC3 isn't the only RTS game from the original WC trilogy. The first 2 RTS games legit existed to be dumb, satirical medieval combat fun.

    Besides, you were kinda arguing against people that said "WoW has always been comedic and/or generic, even in the OG RTS games such as WC3". Idk why you merely took offense into WC3 being not all that clever, and being rather satirical (Cause it is at points), but that kinda implies to me that you think WoW fits the "Oh, it's satirical and comedic and totally not all mature" list, and not WC3. And I'm just lookin for reasons as to why you probably think this. Nothing lost in good faith at all. Hell, I'd argue I'm totally debating in good faith.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Would be helpful if I could know your age or something, so I could get a better idea on what shows you're talkin bout.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I doubt Warhammer guys can write characters that are more impressive than the Jailer, who apparently can end the entire Warcraft Verse if released from the Maw and given all the Pantheon of Death Keys.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And I doubt they can write guys that are stronger than beings that represent the Outer Gods (The Void Lords), and guys that supposedly made everything and apparently range above all the Cosmic Pantheons.
    We have been over this already remember? You basicly begged me not to put quotes lol but if you ask nicely I can absolutely destroy you here with acual ton of quotes from the near one thousand novels compared to barely 20 wow novels.

    And would it matter when wow's writing is complete dog shit and they do a pissed poor job explaining why the baddies are so good

    That's why wow needs warhammer authors to do it and you just admitted illidan novel was the best in explaining why the Legion was a threat and not a complete joke a novel that was written by a warhammer author so come again?

    And let's not forget that wow was a ripoff of warhammer same with Starcraft to 40k

    Remember when you said you know pretty much nothing at all about Warhammer? Yeah this is more you not knowing other ips other then wow and thinks wow's writing team makes the baddest and most op lore figures of all time lmao
    Do you hear the voices too?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Would be helpful if I could know your age or something, so I could get a better idea on what shows you're talkin bout.
    From the look of it, 1 is Dragonball and 3 is X-Men. Don't recognise number 2.
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    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    We're in lore. Sure, your specifically named character for the game might not be the "Champion" showcased in lore, but we do exist. We're literally in the Chronicle as the "champions of the Alliance and the Horde".
    Yep, that’s what I said. ‘Adventurers/Champions’. But we’re not given a power scale or name or story. We’re just hanger-ons.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    "they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium" In a way, it was. WC3 isn't the only RTS game from the original WC trilogy. The first 2 RTS games legit existed to be dumb, satirical medieval combat fun.

    Besides, you were kinda arguing against people that said "WoW has always been comedic and/or generic, even in the OG RTS games such as WC3". Idk why you merely took offense into WC3 being not all that clever, and being rather satirical (Cause it is at points), but that kinda implies to me that you think WoW fits the "Oh, it's satirical and comedic and totally not all mature" list, and not WC3.
    The person I quoted used WC3 as an example which is why I also talked about WC3. Since you seem to take the same position I'd like to ask you the same question. Which part of WC3's actual story is comical/satirical and what is it satirizing?

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    And I'm just lookin for reasons as to why you probably think this. Nothing lost in good faith at all. Hell, I'd argue I'm totally debating in good faith.
    The amount of conjecture in your posts is out of this world. It's insane to me how someone can beg the question this hard while claiming to argue in good faith.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  17. #137
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    We have been over this already remember? You basicly begged me not to put quotes lol but if you ask nicely I can absolutely destroy you here with acual ton of quotes from the near one thousand novels compared to barely 20 wow novels.

    And would it matter when wow's writing is complete dog shit and they do a pissed poor job explaining why the baddies are so good

    That's why wow needs warhammer authors to do it and you just admitted illidan novel was the best in explaining why the Legion was a threat and not a complete joke a novel that was written by a warhammer author so come again?

    And let's not forget that wow was a ripoff of warhammer same with Starcraft to 40k

    Remember when you said you know pretty much nothing at all about Warhammer? Yeah this is more you not knowing other ips other then wow and thinks wow's writing team makes the baddest and most op lore figures of all time lmao
    Ehh, I wouldn't jump right into conclusions. Just because I don't think the Warhammer writers can make guys in WoW that outclass what we currently have, that in itself doesn't mean much of anything. Reminder that the most of what you've given me is that the Chaos Gods can destroy multiple Universes, realities, and shit like that, yeah? The Jailer, if he gains all the keys, would instantly scale above that.

    WoW isn't really a ripoff of 1 verse either. It's also taken things from Elder Scrolls, and LoTR (Hell, the Jailer and the Mawsworn are legit just 1 fuckin combination reference between Mordor, and Dante's Inferno's Hell).

    "That's why wow needs warhammer authors to do it and you just admitted illidan novel was the best in explaining why the Legion was a threat and not a complete joke a novel that was written by a warhammer author so come again?" The Warhammer author also knows the lore of Warcraft, and understands it enough as to make sense of TBC, etc. Not EVERY Warhammer writer needs to pop into WoW, let's be real here. Warhammer has its own insane shit as it is.

    "Remember when you said you know pretty much nothing at all about Warhammer? Yeah this is more you not knowing other ips other then wow and thinks wow's writing team makes the baddest and most op lore figures of all time lmao"

    I actually got the top tiers of DC, Lovecraft, and Elder Scroll's much higher than WoW. I am claiming WoW's full of OP characters, but to say I know nothing of other IP's and say that I think WoW's characters are top tier is just being dishonest, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    From the look of it, 1 is Dragonball and 3 is X-Men. Don't recognise number 2.
    Oh yeah, I can see #'s 1 and 3 now. #1 is talking about Cell. Clever. I thought the guy was talking about show synopsis' as a whole. Not just arcs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Yep, that’s what I said. ‘Adventurers/Champions’. But we’re not given a power scale or name or story. We’re just hanger-ons.
    We're given a story and a power scale. Just not a name. The events our PC goes through in game is exactly what they go through in lore. The only differences is they don't share our name, and their zone/raid encounters are more separated. Meaning, the PC Alliance guy didn't do Ragefire, but the Horde guy did, ya know? But, the Alliance and Horde PC's went into Ny'alotha, and they went into Antorus, etc.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Sure, WC3 story was no Shakespeare !@#$ or anything like that, but it was at least serviceable, and more importantly, it made sense. On the other hand, BC, a lot of Cata and all of WoD and BfA was either a disjointed mess or the adventures of the Mary Sue du jour - and little else. And frankly SL doesn't look a lot better (so far).
    This.
    I'm sure almost everyone, if not all, is looking for coherent logical sense. I mean they seemed to try that with Anduin growing up and into his own. But the follow through was just nonexistent.

  19. #139
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The person I quoted used WC3 as an example which is why I also talked about WC3. Since you seem to take the same position I'd like to ask you the same question. Which part of WC3's actual story is comical/satirical and what is it satirizing?



    The amount of conjecture in your posts is out of this world. It's insane to me how someone can beg the question this hard while claiming to argue in good faith.
    No one is begging. And since you're so kind to ask ME:

    Satirical can be used to reference or mock shit. The Demons of WC3 were basically mockin' and referencing something more akin to Satan and the Demons of Hell.

    The LK is ok in WC3, even if more so a generic reference to the ole' rulers of the dead from other fantasy. The Dreadlords are just fuckin Vampires, etc. There was a lot of satirical shit WoW decided to take way more seriously from WC3. In WoW, the Dreadlords became far more serious (Thanks to Shadowlands...supposedly, of course), the Legion became a far greater and more open threat (They even got their own, unique identity), the Titans became more than just generic creator gods (Nice), etc. Meanwhile, the stuff in WC3 that got expanded upon in WoW, was originally just pure references to other Fantasy genres and their stuff, if not downright satirical versions of em, as I mentioned above.

    NONE OF THIS MEANS I DON'T THINK WC3 IS DARK THO! It is. WC3 is dark, and heavily story driven, and I like that. But, that in itself doesn't make it unbound by satirical or light hearted comedic moments/references/usages.

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    Hell, the WC3 game itself didn't even have Old Gods. It just had "the Forgotten One", which was probably more so a reference to Starcraft's Zerg, rather than Lovecraft's Old Ones. But, the WC3 manual mentioned the Old Gods, tho we won't see them in game till WoW years later.
    Last edited by HighlordJohnstone; 2021-03-02 at 05:16 PM.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Ehh, I wouldn't jump right into conclusions. Just because I don't think the Warhammer writers can make guys in WoW that outclass what we currently have, that in itself doesn't mean much of anything. Reminder that the most of what you've given me is that the Chaos Gods can destroy multiple Universes, realities, and shit like that, yeah? The Jailer, if he gains all the keys, would instantly scale above that.

    WoW isn't really a ripoff of 1 verse either. It's also taken things from Elder Scrolls, and LoTR (Hell, the Jailer and the Mawsworn are legit just 1 fuckin combination reference between Mordor, and Dante's Inferno's Hell).

    "That's why wow needs warhammer authors to do it and you just admitted illidan novel was the best in explaining why the Legion was a threat and not a complete joke a novel that was written by a warhammer author so come again?" The Warhammer author also knows the lore of Warcraft, and understands it enough as to make sense of TBC, etc. Not EVERY Warhammer writer needs to pop into WoW, let's be real here. Warhammer has its own insane shit as it is.

    "Remember when you said you know pretty much nothing at all about Warhammer? Yeah this is more you not knowing other ips other then wow and thinks wow's writing team makes the baddest and most op lore figures of all time lmao"

    I actually got the top tiers of DC, Lovecraft, and Elder Scroll's much higher than WoW. I am claiming WoW's full of OP characters, but to say I know nothing of other IP's and say that I think WoW's characters are top tier is just being dishonest, really.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh yeah, I can see #'s 1 and 3 now. #1 is talking about Cell. Clever. I thought the guy was talking about show synopsis' as a whole. Not just arcs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We're given a story and a power scale. Just not a name. The events our PC goes through in game is exactly what they go through in lore. The only differences is they don't share our name, and their zone/raid encounters are more separated. Meaning, the PC Alliance guy didn't do Ragefire, but the Horde guy did, ya know? But, the Alliance and Horde PC's went into Ny'alotha, and they went into Antorus, etc.
    That's one of the problems lets talk the jailer he's gotta be the most boring and unispired villian of all times in any setting and that's one of the problems with the writing team in wow they cant make interesting and original villians.

    Then we have the whole gameplay before lore in wow it does not matter one bit who they come up with as we already know we are gonna beat them, we never lose compared to lets say warhammer and 40k where the imperium loses tons of times how else are you gonna make the cosmic horrors of the universe feel like a threat? but warhammer is lore and tabletop before anything else and the writers also have hell of alot more freedom and experience in writing.

    Black Library also have alot of amazing writers just look up people like Dan Abnett and many of them have been writing for warhammer for 30 years.

    There is a reason people always make fun of wows lore and writing, especially these days with golden and team lol.
    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2021-03-02 at 05:20 PM.
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