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  1. #181
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    A lot of people actually enjoy playing the good guys
    Does the "good guy" part include sweeping all the !@#$ under the rug, in addition to being boring to tears?
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  2. #182
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    We literally just dealt with the infighting of Kul'Tiras last expansion. What do you mean no infighting?
    it wasn't infight, it was clear good vs evil, that's the problem
    good in-fight example is alliance in classic until king chin appearance, stormwind leader title moved from Bolvar to Benedicus (before they decided to make him EBIL) then back to Bolvar, both are counted on good side, but have different view leadership, another great example was Fandral vs Tyrande in Teldrassil, or how alliance in general was 4 strong nations who just aren't at war with each others (nelfs won't take commands from humans or reverse)
    I loved how SW was described in the (now rectonned) lore stronger than any other nation in world, but have corrupted nobles for leadership, and ignorant king (yes i know they sh8tconned all that later)
    TLDR: Kul'tiras was evil trying to take control, no actual infight where both sides are good, no good character (which is assumed us player) would pick Azshara side over alliance side, while in classic if u pick Benedicus or Bolvar both choices have good solid reasons to be Stormwind leaders and u still alliance
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    How has warmongering leaders worked out for the Horde or any of the enemy factions they both face?
    Well, so far it worked swimmingly - genocide and then getting away with it, snatching some land and so on. Yeah sure they lost a wachief but its a good deal all things considered.

  4. #184
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    So... let me get this straight. You want the faction to be changing and evolving ... back into the Vanilla faction? Right..
    Almost everyone agree that lore in classic was way better than now
    Classic improved lore a LOT, added little while taking only female nelf druids and male nelf warrior (which was a little annoying)
    So yes, I prefer classic, Forsaken mistrusted while tauren/orc/troll best buddies, and orcs aren't kill for kill but still 'misunderstood' WoD bullsh8t
    Alliance are strong nations, they can squash horde if they unite, but a nelf would die before obey a human order, dwarfs busy with almost civil war status and gnomes f8ck everything, while Stormwind is almost strong enough to attack rest of world combined, but corrupted nobles crippling their efforts
    Back then both factions were interesting, Horde have Thrall alliance have Jaina, Cairne old and wise and not a f8cking beta, Magni busy for his daughter who hates him with passion, and so on
    Only 'bad' thing about alliance in classic was absence if a massive lore figure like Malfurion, but even that is forgiven with what (used to be) amazing character Fandral was, fighting for leadership in nelf society and pushing even more the already strong xenohpobe ideology
    TBC added belfs (ok?) and space goats (wtf?) with the first major sh8tcon on lore, at least Metzen apologized for it, but if we knew it will open flood gates we probably would told him to shave his apology where sun doesn't shine
    Wrath came with great lore but also questionable retcones (biggest one: every race DK? why?, also LK became more of morning cartoon villain than Thaddius pure evil creator villain)
    Then from Cata forward they ruin more than they fix, with shit mention to WoD which blizz still refuse to explain its lore even after promises of 'answer' in Chronicles
    Legion was more of fan apology, they added way too much that even sh8t lore is drowned by mediocre one
    BFA is MORALLY GREY so not even up to discussion, and how they treat N'zoth is the worst thing in wow
    SL: well i'm waiting to see, but so far I feel we supporting brainwash in Bastion and we should be cool with it, annihilation and genocide in Maldraxxus, and why exactly we helping brokers in maw? do we even know what is what? still no idea if it will get better or worse, at least I love Torghast and wish to explore it on every class
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Well, so far it worked swimmingly - genocide and then getting away with it, snatching some land and so on. Yeah sure they lost a wachief but its a good deal all things considered.
    Everyone of them has lost in the end and most of them their lives. I don't think thats a pretty good deal for a temporary win.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I don't see how it could have been prevented. The attack was as I said a few times, a well-planned and well-executed deception and caught the Alliance off-guard. You can blame Anduin for that if you like, but none of the other leaders with immensely more combat experience saw it coming either. Once the fleet was away to Silithus it was clear that it would need time to return to Darkshore and that was exactly what Sylvanas based her plan on. The War of Thorns was effectively lost at that moment.

    As for Teldrassil however. No one could have forseen it. Sylvanas either decided on the spot to do it, because of Delaryns taunts or she had the plan all along and shared it not even with Nathanos. We saved as many as we could but there was no way to see this coming and prepare for it. So I just don't see how you can blame anyone but the one who burned the tree down for this.



    It achieved nothing. The faction war was dead on arrival, because no side can ever win or loose. I mainly sustain myself with being happy to not be the faction that was for the second time following a psychopathic mass murderer for stupid reasons. There really isn't much else.



    I mean Tyrande is actually part of the (Ardenweald) story and is helping her people, I would say she is representing a lot. Much more then the Void Elves, Mecha(gnomes), Worgen and others are. One would think that Alleria would come over to hunt for her sister, but no sign of her.
    Regarding Teldrassil and the War of Thorns: They rather sent masses of troops to the Undercity - to achieve nothing, Jaina could have pulled her deus ex machina in Darkshore as well. There was dialogue between Tyrande and Anduin where he defied her demands for Alliance military support only to waste it in the Undercity.

    The Horde DOES win territory. Like Southshore etc. Why hasn't the Alliance taken back the Foothills after the Undercity was destroyed?

    In "representing" I don't mean story. I mean: standing in a fixed place like faction leaders usually do. The Bronzebeards in Ironforge, Turalyon in Stormwind (Alleria is in the war room next to the throne in SW btw.), Mekkatorque in Gnomeregan, Velen in his spaceship-thingy..., this is not a request for "attention" as the devs call it. It's about the consistency of the "world" if you will.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Does the "good guy" part include sweeping all the !@#$ under the rug, in addition to being boring to tears?
    That is your opinion. Other people don't necessarily see it that way.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Regarding Teldrassil and the War of Thorns: They rather sent masses of troops to the Undercity - to achieve nothing, Jaina could have pulled her deus ex machina in Darkshore as well. There was dialogue between Tyrande and Anduin where he defied her demands for Alliance military support only to waste it in the Undercity.
    But that completely ignores the time needed for troop movement. The Undercity is on the same continent so no sea travel is needed, plus the attack was not time sensitive, they could move up there in a week or so. It's not like anyone expected Sylvanas to give up the place, so they could take their time to build up the siege. The War of Thorns only went on for a few days, there was no where enough time to move troops to the other side of the planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    The Horde DOES win territory. Like Southshore etc. Why hasn't the Alliance taken back the Foothills after the Undercity was destroyed?
    This is more a technical issue. It requires a world revamp of a zone we don't need atm, so it doesn't happen. Lore-wise the EK are ours up to the that little red tip of elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    In "representing" I don't mean story. I mean: standing in a fixed place like faction leaders usually do. The Bronzebeards in Ironforge, Turalyon in Stormwind (Alleria is in the war room next to the throne in SW btw.), Mekkatorque in Gnomeregan, Velen in his spaceship-thingy..., this is not a request for "attention" as the devs call it. It's about the consistency of the "world" if you will.
    Well, Malfurion is actually in SW. In the map room in the Keep.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Regarding Teldrassil and the War of Thorns: They rather sent masses of troops to the Undercity - to achieve nothing, Jaina could have pulled her deus ex machina in Darkshore as well. There was dialogue between Tyrande and Anduin where he defied her demands for Alliance military support only to waste it in the Undercity.
    The Battle for Lordaeron took place well before Tyrande requested aid in retaking Darkshore.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    A realistic portrayal of any faction would've drained their armies and resources years ago
    And millennia old races like the Blood Elves and Nightborne wouldn't join a faction that effectively makes them slaves to some green skinned idiot/dead elf living in a city of mud huts continents away.

    But sure, the game suddenly stopped making sense because of Anduin /s.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  11. #191
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I'm not saying Blizzard can't do something, it's their IP. However using the term king, which in the overwhelming majority of speech communities carries with it a multitude of different roles that very specifically don't involve leading armies, as opposed to a term like "general" which in the overwhelming majority of speech communities carries with it exclusively military connotations doesn't make sense. It needlessly complicates things.



    Fine-fine, I'll recontextualize; General might not exclusively be a military title yet in the majority of speech acts it is used as such, except in, niche religious cases, which, like I said, I don't care about. Merriam Webster and The Cambridge Dictionary both have "military officer" as its primary and most common meaning.

    In the overwhelming majority of speech communities "king" means more than simply a general, whereas in the overwhelming majority of speech communities "general" simply means a high ranking officer.

    Blizzard was given two choices, call the leader of the Alliance armies something that doesn't carry with it a multitude of other connotations in the vast majority of speech communities, or call the leader of the Alliance armies something that DOES carry with it a multitude of other connotations in the vast majority of speech communities.

    The choice to needlessley complicate things is what doesn't make sense. I'll grant you that "king" TECHNICALLY fits, we agreed on this, kings lead armies. However there are far more fitting titles for the position, and the decision not to dub it something more fitting, that carries less connotations that doesn't relate to the responsibility is what doesn't make sense.
    You wouldn't have had a problem with High King if you actually look at historic High Kings. Some had some measure of control over while other were merely a title with no real powers (literally, real life High Kings with LESS powers than Varian or Anduin had).

    And again, my original point was the title of High King made sense when the Alliance was made up exclusively of Kingdoms ... now that it really isn't, the title High King is odd because groups like the Draenei or Night Elves aren't at this time monarchies so the title of King has little meaning to them.

    It makes sense, it fits, but yes, there were better titles in universe to use. And there was no reason for Anduin to inherent it. Anduin getting it pretty much is Blizzard playing into the Fantasy High King aspect when that wasn't what they built in the first place.
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  12. #192
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    And millennia old races like the Blood Elves and Nightborne wouldn't join a faction that effectively makes them slaves to some green skinned idiot/dead elf living in a city of mud huts continents away.
    And millennia old races like the Night Elves or the Draenei wouldn't join a faction that effectively makes them slaves to some sub 40 human twerp living in a stone building in the other corner of the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    And millennia old races like the Night Elves or the Draenei wouldn't join a faction that effectively makes them slaves to some sub 40 human twerp living in a stone building in the other corner of the world.
    But they're not slaves. The NEs said fuck you to Anduin and retook their lands by themselves. By Alliance law all Anduin could do was watch. By Horde law he would have been within his rights to kill literally the entire race because literally entire races sign away their sovereignty and free will to one guy/gal the moment they join the Horde, which is a totally stupid and outrageously unrealistic system of government when dealing with one race, let alone a dozen+, but yeah let's make dissertations on how Anduin's age is the real dealbreaker of Warcraft's spotless realism guys.

    Besides, even if what you said were true, outside of maths I've heard of no situation where two wrongs equal a right.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  14. #194
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    let's make dissertations on how Anduin's age is the real dealbreaker of Warcraft's spotless realism guys.
    I never said that, but thanks for the strawman, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I never said that, but thanks for the strawman, I guess.
    It was more a jab at the entire thread rather than you, I should have made that clearer I suppose.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Stonespire genocide
    So yeah, this "but muh Taurajo!" again. You've had 10 years to play this chain on Alliance side to see that Dwarves took extra care to reduce casualties and make an open path of escape for civilians - i.e. something Murderorde never ever did in its history. Nowhere even once it is stated that their goal is "genocide" anyone and especially nobody ever says "lets kill kids/teens" as the guy I was answering to lied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Frostmanes
    Oh, those chummy guys?
    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Compedium from old Blizzard site
    Due to the ice trolls' unrelenting hostility toward outsiders<...>the Frostmane trolls have been launching increasingly frequent and aggressive attacks against the dwarves living in Dun Morogh. The dwarves currently consider the Frostmane tribe little more than a nuisance, and have not made a concerted effort to vanquish them.

    At some point, several Frostmane trolls came too close to Ironforge and attacked a group of dwarves which included queen Eimear who was killed during the attack. Mountaineers fought the trolls back but couldn't save the queen.
    How dare those EVIL dwarves fight back against attacks of "unrelentingly hostile" trolls? And how could they deviously "not make a concerted effort to vanquish them" thus utterly massacring them, right?
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  17. #197
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Regarding Teldrassil and the War of Thorns: They rather sent masses of troops to the Undercity - to achieve nothing, Jaina could have pulled her deus ex machina in Darkshore as well. There was dialogue between Tyrande and Anduin where he defied her demands for Alliance military support only to waste it in the Undercity.
    The battle for undercity only happend’s after the tree was burned the idea that anduin sent troops to attack undercity and left the night elfs to fend for them selfs has no basis in reality.

    Where did you even get this idea from? We have anduins real time response and everything.

    Tyrande nodded. “Malfurion has recalled the navy that is en route to Feralas. Delaying the Horde at the Falfarren could buy precious time.”

    No one asked the question—would it be enough? Anduin looked at the frightened faces of the refugees. If the Horde made it to Darnassus with that kind of weaponry—He swallowed and took a deep breath, asking the Light to help him clear his head and focus. “Stormwind will send reinforcements immediately,” he said.

    Tyrande nodded. She knew, as they all knew, that one could not move armies through portals as one did handfuls of individuals. He could send all the reinforcements in Azeroth, and like the army the Alliance had so smugly assembled for just this purpose, they would arrive too late to do much good.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The battle for undercity only happend’s after the tree was burned the idea that anduin sent troops to attack undercity and left the night elfs to fend for them selfs has no basis in reality.

    Where did you even get this idea from? We have anduins real time response and everything.
    Him making “peace” with the horde without ensuring that all territories they occupied were returned or demanding reparations was already a betrayal of Alliance.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    So yeah, this "but muh Taurajo!"
    Except thats not Taurajo. Thats from classic.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The battle for undercity only happend’s after the tree was burned the idea that anduin sent troops to attack undercity and left the night elfs to fend for them selfs has no basis in reality.

    Where did you even get this idea from? We have anduins real time response and everything.
    Ah yes, here we have the undenialable proof. Now let us watch how they will deny it

    Also it was brought up that Jaina could have assissted on Darkshore. This is false. Jaina was at this point in time on Kul'Tiras and then near Theramore to raise her dad's ship.
    It is clearly implied that she learned of the genocide at Teldrassil during the Siege of the Undercity, just look at her face when Anduin mentions it to Sylvanas. She did not have a clue. So she could not help sooner. Something we can blame Khadgar for, who pushed her away from the Kirin Tor. She told them that the Horde could not be trusted and she was proven right yet again.
    Wonder if Khadgar ever apologized to her before locking himself in Karazhan and refusing to help his people against a psychopathic Banshee.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Him making “peace” with the horde without ensuring that all territories they occupied were returned or demanding reparations was already a betrayal of Alliance.
    The problem with this stance is that you think these things happen in what little time has passed since Sylvanas has poofed away. Out of game month and nearly a year has passed since that time, but then we had to deal with N'zoth and shortly afterwards (ingame) the Scourge suddenly attacked again. There was just not a lot of time to engage in politicking and these kinds of negotiations can take years.
    First order of buisness was stopping to kill each other but the reparation is not forgotten. Remember, Thrall swore to bring Tyrande the head of the Banshee, that is one thing, releasing Shaw from prison and giving him Sira as a gift to the Alliance is another. But now we first need to stop said Banshee from ending reality then we can have negotiations again.

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