Realistic portrayal of the Alliance within World of Warcraft

[StationaryHawk]

Regarding Teldrassil and the War of Thorns: They rather sent masses of troops to the Undercity - to achieve nothing, Jaina could have pulled her deus ex machina in Darkshore as well. There was dialogue between Tyrande and Anduin where he defied her demands for Alliance military support only to waste it in the Undercity.

The Battle for Lordaeron took place well before Tyrande requested aid in retaking Darkshore.

[Jastall]

A realistic portrayal of any faction would've drained their armies and resources years ago

And millennia old races like the Blood Elves and Nightborne wouldn't join a faction that effectively makes them slaves to some green skinned idiot/dead elf living in a city of mud huts continents away.

But sure, the game suddenly stopped making sense because of Anduin /s.

[Darththeo]

I'm not saying Blizzard can't do something, it's their IP. However using the term king, which in the overwhelming majority of speech communities carries with it a multitude of different roles that very specifically don't involve leading armies, as opposed to a term like "general" which in the overwhelming majority of speech communities carries with it exclusively military connotations doesn't make sense. It needlessly complicates things.



Fine-fine, I'll recontextualize; General might not exclusively be a military title yet in the majority of speech acts it is used as such, except in, niche religious cases, which, like I said, I don't care about. Merriam Webster and The Cambridge Dictionary both have "military officer" as its primary and most common meaning.

In the overwhelming majority of speech communities "king" means more than simply a general, whereas in the overwhelming majority of speech communities "general" simply means a high ranking officer.

Blizzard was given two choices, call the leader of the Alliance armies something that doesn't carry with it a multitude of other connotations in the vast majority of speech communities, or call the leader of the Alliance armies something that DOES carry with it a multitude of other connotations in the vast majority of speech communities.

The choice to needlessley complicate things is what doesn't make sense. I'll grant you that "king" TECHNICALLY fits, we agreed on this, kings lead armies. However there are far more fitting titles for the position, and the decision not to dub it something more fitting, that carries less connotations that doesn't relate to the responsibility is what doesn't make sense.

You wouldn't have had a problem with High King if you actually look at historic High Kings. Some had some measure of control over while other were merely a title with no real powers (literally, real life High Kings with LESS powers than Varian or Anduin had).

And again, my original point was the title of High King made sense when the Alliance was made up exclusively of Kingdoms ... now that it really isn't, the title High King is odd because groups like the Draenei or Night Elves aren't at this time monarchies so the title of King has little meaning to them.

It makes sense, it fits, but yes, there were better titles in universe to use. And there was no reason for Anduin to inherent it. Anduin getting it pretty much is Blizzard playing into the Fantasy High King aspect when that wasn't what they built in the first place.

[Soon-TM]

And millennia old races like the Blood Elves and Nightborne wouldn't join a faction that effectively makes them slaves to some green skinned idiot/dead elf living in a city of mud huts continents away.

And millennia old races like the Night Elves or the Draenei wouldn't join a faction that effectively makes them slaves to some sub 40 human twerp living in a stone building in the other corner of the world.

[Jastall]

And millennia old races like the Night Elves or the Draenei wouldn't join a faction that effectively makes them slaves to some sub 40 human twerp living in a stone building in the other corner of the world.

But they're not slaves. The NEs said fuck you to Anduin and retook their lands by themselves. By Alliance law all Anduin could do was watch. By Horde law he would have been within his rights to kill literally the entire race because literally entire races sign away their sovereignty and free will to one guy/gal the moment they join the Horde, which is a totally stupid and outrageously unrealistic system of government when dealing with one race, let alone a dozen+, but yeah let's make dissertations on how Anduin's age is the real dealbreaker of Warcraft's spotless realism guys.

Besides, even if what you said were true, outside of maths I've heard of no situation where two wrongs equal a right.

[Soon-TM]

let's make dissertations on how Anduin's age is the real dealbreaker of Warcraft's spotless realism guys.

I never said that, but thanks for the strawman, I guess.

[Jastall]

I never said that, but thanks for the strawman, I guess.

It was more a jab at the entire thread rather than you, I should have made that clearer I suppose.

[rowaasr13]

Stonespire genocide

So yeah, this "but muh Taurajo!" again. You've had 10 years to play this chain on Alliance side to see that Dwarves took extra care to reduce casualties and make an open path of escape for civilians - i.e. something Murderorde never ever did in its history. Nowhere even once it is stated that their goal is "genocide" anyone and especially nobody ever says "lets kill kids/teens" as the guy I was answering to lied.

Frostmanes

Oh, those chummy guys?

Due to the ice trolls' unrelenting hostility toward outsiders<...>the Frostmane trolls have been launching increasingly frequent and aggressive attacks against the dwarves living in Dun Morogh. The dwarves currently consider the Frostmane tribe little more than a nuisance, and have not made a concerted effort to vanquish them.

At some point, several Frostmane trolls came too close to Ironforge and attacked a group of dwarves which included queen Eimear who was killed during the attack. Mountaineers fought the trolls back but couldn't save the queen.

How dare those EVIL dwarves fight back against attacks of "unrelentingly hostile" trolls? And how could they deviously "not make a concerted effort to vanquish them" thus utterly massacring them, right?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Regarding Teldrassil and the War of Thorns: They rather sent masses of troops to the Undercity - to achieve nothing, Jaina could have pulled her deus ex machina in Darkshore as well. There was dialogue between Tyrande and Anduin where he defied her demands for Alliance military support only to waste it in the Undercity.

The battle for undercity only happend’s after the tree was burned the idea that anduin sent troops to attack undercity and left the night elfs to fend for them selfs has no basis in reality.

Where did you even get this idea from? We have anduins real time response and everything.

Tyrande nodded. “Malfurion has recalled the navy that is en route to Feralas. Delaying the Horde at the Falfarren could buy precious time.”

No one asked the question—would it be enough? Anduin looked at the frightened faces of the refugees. If the Horde made it to Darnassus with that kind of weaponry—He swallowed and took a deep breath, asking the Light to help him clear his head and focus. “Stormwind will send reinforcements immediately,” he said.

Tyrande nodded. She knew, as they all knew, that one could not move armies through portals as one did handfuls of individuals. He could send all the reinforcements in Azeroth, and like the army the Alliance had so smugly assembled for just this purpose, they would arrive too late to do much good.

[VladlTutushkin]

The battle for undercity only happend’s after the tree was burned the idea that anduin sent troops to attack undercity and left the night elfs to fend for them selfs has no basis in reality.

Where did you even get this idea from? We have anduins real time response and everything.

Him making “peace” with the horde without ensuring that all territories they occupied were returned or demanding reparations was already a betrayal of Alliance.

[Verdugo]

So yeah, this "but muh Taurajo!"

Except thats not Taurajo. Thats from classic.

[Raisei]

The battle for undercity only happend’s after the tree was burned the idea that anduin sent troops to attack undercity and left the night elfs to fend for them selfs has no basis in reality.

Where did you even get this idea from? We have anduins real time response and everything.

Ah yes, here we have the undenialable proof. Now let us watch how they will deny it

Also it was brought up that Jaina could have assissted on Darkshore. This is false. Jaina was at this point in time on Kul'Tiras and then near Theramore to raise her dad's ship.
It is clearly implied that she learned of the genocide at Teldrassil during the Siege of the Undercity, just look at her face when Anduin mentions it to Sylvanas. She did not have a clue. So she could not help sooner. Something we can blame Khadgar for, who pushed her away from the Kirin Tor. She told them that the Horde could not be trusted and she was proven right yet again.
Wonder if Khadgar ever apologized to her before locking himself in Karazhan and refusing to help his people against a psychopathic Banshee.

- - - Updated - - -

Him making “peace” with the horde without ensuring that all territories they occupied were returned or demanding reparations was already a betrayal of Alliance.

The problem with this stance is that you think these things happen in what little time has passed since Sylvanas has poofed away. Out of game month and nearly a year has passed since that time, but then we had to deal with N'zoth and shortly afterwards (ingame) the Scourge suddenly attacked again. There was just not a lot of time to engage in politicking and these kinds of negotiations can take years.
First order of buisness was stopping to kill each other but the reparation is not forgotten. Remember, Thrall swore to bring Tyrande the head of the Banshee, that is one thing, releasing Shaw from prison and giving him Sira as a gift to the Alliance is another. But now we first need to stop said Banshee from ending reality then we can have negotiations again.

[VladlTutushkin]

Except thats not Taurajo. Thats from classic.

And everybody responsible for that is dead by now.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah yes, here we have the undenialable proof. Now let us watch how they will deny it

Also it was brought up that Jaina could have assissted on Darkshore. This is false. Jaina was at this point in time on Kul'Tiras and then near Theramore to raise her dad's ship.
It is clearly implied that she learned of the genocide at Teldrassil during the Siege of the Undercity, just look at her face when Anduin mentions it to Sylvanas. She did not have a clue. So she could not help sooner. Something we can blame Khadgar for, who pushed her away from the Kirin Tor. She told them that the Horde could not be trusted and she was proven right yet again.
Wonder if Khadgar ever apologized to her before locking himself in Karazhan and refusing to help his people against a psychopathic Banshee.

- - - Updated - - -



The problem with this stance is that you think these things happen in what little time has passed since Sylvanas has poofed away. Out of game month and nearly a year has passed since that time, but then we had to deal with N'zoth and shortly afterwards (ingame) the Scourge suddenly attacked again. There was just not a lot of time to engage in politicking and these kinds of negotiations can take years.
First order of buisness was stopping to kill each other but the reparation is not forgotten. Remember, Thrall swore to bring Tyrande the head of the Banshee, that is one thing, releasing Shaw from prison and giving him Sira as a gift to the Alliance is another. But now we first need to stop said Banshee from ending reality then we can have negotiations again.

And you think by then there will be anything left of Ashenvale? Or horde will return it to the Alliance or night elves specifically? Lol. I bet they are settling it (and also deforesting, poisoning and clear-cutting) faster then you can say "total devastation".

[Super Dickmann]

Good sir, I must ask you for permission for using this as a sig. It's simply too good to let it pass

I preferred my line about the dictionary, but you have my blessing.

@Raisei

It's why I mentioned that you can't do it if there's no great will for it, but that doesn't mean that many of these races don't have it as their core concept. It's why at the time of your comment you were speaking to a night elf fan bringing up the same thing and why you, Vlad and others have many times mentioned the patented illogic involving the Alliance's excessively forgiving policy towards the Horde. This and the Horde's steady creep into being the junior Alliance come from the same well, but thehy weren't always the case. The Vanilla humans and dwarves are a very far cry from what the races are now, and the Night Elves have only occasionally followed up on what their playerbase actually want, which is the WC3 incarnation and attitudes. A more fleshed out Alliance doesn't require a strawman solution of making everyone a dick but the same calibre of writing that renders things like Southern Barrens or Stormheim debatable by both factions to this day where they get their punches in justifiably from their perspective and the narrative acts accordingly. The issue doesn't lie in that Anduin is just an extremely good boy, it's that everyone else moves towards acting in the same way he does and that this chafes violently against many of the concepts of the other constituent races and even the humans themselves, as well as basic in-story reasoning. Even you, someone who actually likes the ongoing Anduinification routinely points out how retarded the lack of any positively portrayed character taking issue with the Horde post-BFA is, let alone people with different preferences.

@Jastall

A big point of the blood elf fall from grace is evidenced in that they are essentially dependant on the same people who destroyed them - the undead and orcs. Velen fixing the well and the removal of this dependance or even the need for the Horde as allies is why the blood elf story has been stuck in a weird rut despite its excessive amount of screentime and characters relative to other Horde races. More so than that, the narrative is aware of that and everyone from high elves to those dissenters in Silvermoon in TBC, to Rommath taking issues with Bob's compliance with Sylvanas and Garrosh lamenting having to send troops to keep Silvermoon going reinforces this as an actual intended narrative element time and again, culminating with Bob's plot to defect in Mists. Sure, it all comes to nothing in BFA when Bob's going on about how much he looks up to the Warchief and how Baine is better than sliced bread and sex, like much everything else in that wretched expansion, but the story has generally been aware of this element and works with it. By comparison, there's no actual in story reason why the night elves or dwarves take their cues from a kid despite their experience, difference in relative power and own interests.

Entirely agreed on the Nightborne though.

[Raisei]

It's why I mentioned that you can't do it if there's no great will for it, but that doesn't mean that many of these races don't have it as their core concept. It's why at the time of your comment you were speaking to a night elf fan bringing up the same thing and why you, Vlad and others have many times mentioned the patented illogic involving the Alliance's excessively forgiving policy towards the Horde. This and the Horde's steady creep into being the junior Alliance come from the same well, but thehy weren't always the case. The Vanilla humans and dwarves are a very far cry from what the races are now, and the Night Elves have only occasionally followed up on what their playerbase actually want, which is the WC3 incarnation and attitudes. A more fleshed out Alliance doesn't require a strawman solution of making everyone a dick but the same calibre of writing that renders things like Southern Barrens or Stormheim debatable by both factions to this day where they get their punches in justifiably from their perspective and the narrative acts accordingly. The issue doesn't lie in that Anduin is just an extremely good boy, it's that everyone else moves towards acting in the same way he does and that this chafes violently against many of the concepts of the other constituent races and even the humans themselves, as well as basic in-story reasoning. Even you, someone who actually likes the ongoing Anduinification routinely points out how retarded the lack of any positively portrayed character taking issue with the Horde post-BFA is, let alone people with different preferences.

I think the problem is that several of the Alliance posters, including myself have just realized that there is never going to be an adequate punishment for the Horde, mainly because an adequate punishment would make it cease to exist and that is not gonna happen.

So in the end, what is the point of the Alliance becoming more agressive? It's never gonna achieve anything. The faction war story is dead because it inherently will never have consequences, so I arrive at the point of "screw it". If we never will have a satisfactory outcome for the faction war and the Horde will never pay for the genocides it commited then I see no point even continuing this plot strand, it will only result in more disappointment.

I'd much rather see it left behind entirely and explore what we can do with Alliance and Horde as friends. I know you would hate this, because you believe that the faction conflict is the only worthwhile story to tell, but I can at least see the chance of the story developing into something good once we leave this pointless and oooold plot behind.

This at least is my hope and I think it's what the writers are trying by promoting Anduin for the Alliance and bringing back the Thrall-Horde. Since I have arrived at this mental space where most change away from the faction war is a good thing, I defend both the Horde Council, Calia and Anduin as catalysts or symbols of this change.

Now this does not mean I want to forgive the Horde, but if the options are forgiving or going through another MoP/BFA then I know where I stand.

This being said, I still like Anduin as a character, doesn't mean I agree with every last of his decisions.

[Jastall]

@Jastall

A big point of the blood elf fall from grace is evidenced in that they are essentially dependant on the same people who destroyed them - the undead and orcs. Velen fixing the well and the removal of this dependance or even the need for the Horde as allies is why the blood elf story has been stuck in a weird rut despite its excessive amount of screentime and characters relative to other Horde races. More so than that, the narrative is aware of that and everyone from high elves to those dissenters in Silvermoon in TBC, to Rommath taking issues with Bob's compliance with Sylvanas and Garrosh lamenting having to send troops to keep Silvermoon going reinforces this as an actual intended narrative element time and again, culminating with Bob's plot to defect in Mists. Sure, it all comes to nothing in BFA when Bob's going on about how much he looks up to the Warchief and how Baine is better than sliced bread and sex, like much everything else in that wretched expansion, but the story has generally been aware of this element and works with it. By comparison, there's no actual in story reason why the night elves or dwarves take their cues from a kid despite their experience, difference in relative power and own interests.

Entirely agreed on the Nightborne though.

I get that the BE's bargaining position in early TBC wasn't great and that joining forces with the Horde was more a matter of necessity than taste, and Lor'themar's behavior has broadly reflected this, but as shown by the Zandalari example they could have insisted on being allies of the Horde rather than enslaved to it, especially given that Thrall is hardly the most unreasonable of Orcs. Similarly, why did Sylvanas also throw away her sovereignty to some Orc after fighting so hard to earn her freedom? Something which would bite her in the ass hard in Cata. It just seems totally out of character for anyone who has a minimal amount of spine to look at the Blood Oath and not say "oh hell no, I am so not handing my people's sovereignty and lives to one person that can be replaced at the drop of a hat just to be part of your club".

I do agree that Anduin has a disproportionate influence, but that's because he's human, in and out of the story; in-story, the humans are the biggest kids in the Alliance bloc (yes, it makes no sense, but logistics in Warcraft never made sense at all) and out of story people like humans for some reason or another. Thus he gets to be important while the funny short dudes with beards blather on about woons and most NEs hug their trees, just like his father was super duper important despite showing up out of nowhere early Wrath and doing little but having some of his kingdom starve and partially trigger a war he was losing. That's just how it is, I don't like it but it's hardly the most egregious breach of realism amongst the factions.

[Ardenaso]

So yeah, this "but muh Taurajo!" again. You've had 10 years to play this chain on Alliance side to see that Dwarves took extra care to reduce casualties and make an open path of escape for civilians - i.e. something Murderorde never ever did in its history. Nowhere even once it is stated that their goal is "genocide" anyone and especially nobody ever says "lets kill kids/teens" as the guy I was answering to lied.

it's not Taurajo; and what were those Dwarves even doing in Tauren ancestral lands and why are they demolishing and excavating it in the first place

Then the dwarves of Bael'dun came and began their disruptive excavation operations, forcing the tauren out and killing many innocent tauren in the process. The tauren tried to approach the dwarves to reach a diplomatic resolution, but it failed.

[Raven]

Because the Dwarves are right now the most dominant force in the Alliance military wise. They are the ones crafting the tanks and their manpower is also bigger than anyone else within the Alliance. Why would they let themselves be governed by a Human king that inherited his military rank, and is weak on top of that?

Let's be honest, Anduin doesn't make a great leader. He would be a great friend though! I get you! He's a friendly little fella.
But supposedly everyone automatically likes him aside from the bad guys for some reason. Maybe that's how we know they're a villian. They don't like Anduin, boom, there's your bad guy.

Oh and also, if you have to ask the question why an 18 year old boy with no military experiences is just made High King aka supreme commander of the Alliance like that, which would mean he's the one leading your own men within the Alliance and making all the big decisions in terms of war is seen as a bad thing, then I'm done talking to you.

Actually its the gnomes that are the enginners not the dwarfs.

[Claymore]

I think I commented before, but the whole problem is that Blizzard wants the factions to mirror each other, instead of playing up their differences.

The Horde has a singular Warchief -- a literal dictator -- who calls all the shots. Anyone is welcome to challenge them, but in doing so generally involving a fight to the death, thus ensuring only the strongest is Warchief, and all are loyal to them.

The Alliance, by complete contrast, is simply a group of individual nations that agreed to come together for common purpose. As such, there should be a lot more political intrigue there. Similarly, while the Horde is relatively small as compared to the Alliance, it benefits from having extremely streamlined leadership, meaning they would be able to move and react much more quickly, whereas the Alliance would likely have more bureaucracy and competing agendas to work through.

It's one of the reasons I thought it would be a cool twist to introduce a more "evil" race to the Alliance (something like the Mogu), who choose to align with the Alliance due to its more imperialistic values, and that they would've been forced to give up their own identity, versus the Horde, in which the Warchief really does rule all.

[Ardenaso]

Actually its the gnomes that are the enginners not the dwarfs.

if I'm not mistaken after the Gnomes had to leave the Alliance to do Gnomeragan stuff in WC3, the Dwarves learned how to engineer stuff; that's why the Gyrocopters and Steam Tanks were Dwarven and not Gnomish; and there's not a single Gnome in Bael Modan