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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Except thats not Taurajo. Thats from classic.
    And everybody responsible for that is dead by now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Ah yes, here we have the undenialable proof. Now let us watch how they will deny it

    Also it was brought up that Jaina could have assissted on Darkshore. This is false. Jaina was at this point in time on Kul'Tiras and then near Theramore to raise her dad's ship.
    It is clearly implied that she learned of the genocide at Teldrassil during the Siege of the Undercity, just look at her face when Anduin mentions it to Sylvanas. She did not have a clue. So she could not help sooner. Something we can blame Khadgar for, who pushed her away from the Kirin Tor. She told them that the Horde could not be trusted and she was proven right yet again.
    Wonder if Khadgar ever apologized to her before locking himself in Karazhan and refusing to help his people against a psychopathic Banshee.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The problem with this stance is that you think these things happen in what little time has passed since Sylvanas has poofed away. Out of game month and nearly a year has passed since that time, but then we had to deal with N'zoth and shortly afterwards (ingame) the Scourge suddenly attacked again. There was just not a lot of time to engage in politicking and these kinds of negotiations can take years.
    First order of buisness was stopping to kill each other but the reparation is not forgotten. Remember, Thrall swore to bring Tyrande the head of the Banshee, that is one thing, releasing Shaw from prison and giving him Sira as a gift to the Alliance is another. But now we first need to stop said Banshee from ending reality then we can have negotiations again.
    And you think by then there will be anything left of Ashenvale? Or horde will return it to the Alliance or night elves specifically? Lol. I bet they are settling it (and also deforesting, poisoning and clear-cutting) faster then you can say "total devastation".

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Good sir, I must ask you for permission for using this as a sig. It's simply too good to let it pass
    I preferred my line about the dictionary, but you have my blessing.

    @Raisei

    It's why I mentioned that you can't do it if there's no great will for it, but that doesn't mean that many of these races don't have it as their core concept. It's why at the time of your comment you were speaking to a night elf fan bringing up the same thing and why you, Vlad and others have many times mentioned the patented illogic involving the Alliance's excessively forgiving policy towards the Horde. This and the Horde's steady creep into being the junior Alliance come from the same well, but thehy weren't always the case. The Vanilla humans and dwarves are a very far cry from what the races are now, and the Night Elves have only occasionally followed up on what their playerbase actually want, which is the WC3 incarnation and attitudes. A more fleshed out Alliance doesn't require a strawman solution of making everyone a dick but the same calibre of writing that renders things like Southern Barrens or Stormheim debatable by both factions to this day where they get their punches in justifiably from their perspective and the narrative acts accordingly. The issue doesn't lie in that Anduin is just an extremely good boy, it's that everyone else moves towards acting in the same way he does and that this chafes violently against many of the concepts of the other constituent races and even the humans themselves, as well as basic in-story reasoning. Even you, someone who actually likes the ongoing Anduinification routinely points out how retarded the lack of any positively portrayed character taking issue with the Horde post-BFA is, let alone people with different preferences.

    @Jastall

    A big point of the blood elf fall from grace is evidenced in that they are essentially dependant on the same people who destroyed them - the undead and orcs. Velen fixing the well and the removal of this dependance or even the need for the Horde as allies is why the blood elf story has been stuck in a weird rut despite its excessive amount of screentime and characters relative to other Horde races. More so than that, the narrative is aware of that and everyone from high elves to those dissenters in Silvermoon in TBC, to Rommath taking issues with Bob's compliance with Sylvanas and Garrosh lamenting having to send troops to keep Silvermoon going reinforces this as an actual intended narrative element time and again, culminating with Bob's plot to defect in Mists. Sure, it all comes to nothing in BFA when Bob's going on about how much he looks up to the Warchief and how Baine is better than sliced bread and sex, like much everything else in that wretched expansion, but the story has generally been aware of this element and works with it. By comparison, there's no actual in story reason why the night elves or dwarves take their cues from a kid despite their experience, difference in relative power and own interests.

    Entirely agreed on the Nightborne though.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-03-03 at 12:54 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's why I mentioned that you can't do it if there's no great will for it, but that doesn't mean that many of these races don't have it as their core concept. It's why at the time of your comment you were speaking to a night elf fan bringing up the same thing and why you, Vlad and others have many times mentioned the patented illogic involving the Alliance's excessively forgiving policy towards the Horde. This and the Horde's steady creep into being the junior Alliance come from the same well, but thehy weren't always the case. The Vanilla humans and dwarves are a very far cry from what the races are now, and the Night Elves have only occasionally followed up on what their playerbase actually want, which is the WC3 incarnation and attitudes. A more fleshed out Alliance doesn't require a strawman solution of making everyone a dick but the same calibre of writing that renders things like Southern Barrens or Stormheim debatable by both factions to this day where they get their punches in justifiably from their perspective and the narrative acts accordingly. The issue doesn't lie in that Anduin is just an extremely good boy, it's that everyone else moves towards acting in the same way he does and that this chafes violently against many of the concepts of the other constituent races and even the humans themselves, as well as basic in-story reasoning. Even you, someone who actually likes the ongoing Anduinification routinely points out how retarded the lack of any positively portrayed character taking issue with the Horde post-BFA is, let alone people with different preferences.
    I think the problem is that several of the Alliance posters, including myself have just realized that there is never going to be an adequate punishment for the Horde, mainly because an adequate punishment would make it cease to exist and that is not gonna happen.

    So in the end, what is the point of the Alliance becoming more agressive? It's never gonna achieve anything. The faction war story is dead because it inherently will never have consequences, so I arrive at the point of "screw it". If we never will have a satisfactory outcome for the faction war and the Horde will never pay for the genocides it commited then I see no point even continuing this plot strand, it will only result in more disappointment.

    I'd much rather see it left behind entirely and explore what we can do with Alliance and Horde as friends. I know you would hate this, because you believe that the faction conflict is the only worthwhile story to tell, but I can at least see the chance of the story developing into something good once we leave this pointless and oooold plot behind.

    This at least is my hope and I think it's what the writers are trying by promoting Anduin for the Alliance and bringing back the Thrall-Horde. Since I have arrived at this mental space where most change away from the faction war is a good thing, I defend both the Horde Council, Calia and Anduin as catalysts or symbols of this change.

    Now this does not mean I want to forgive the Horde, but if the options are forgiving or going through another MoP/BFA then I know where I stand.

    This being said, I still like Anduin as a character, doesn't mean I agree with every last of his decisions.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2021-03-03 at 01:55 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    @Jastall

    A big point of the blood elf fall from grace is evidenced in that they are essentially dependant on the same people who destroyed them - the undead and orcs. Velen fixing the well and the removal of this dependance or even the need for the Horde as allies is why the blood elf story has been stuck in a weird rut despite its excessive amount of screentime and characters relative to other Horde races. More so than that, the narrative is aware of that and everyone from high elves to those dissenters in Silvermoon in TBC, to Rommath taking issues with Bob's compliance with Sylvanas and Garrosh lamenting having to send troops to keep Silvermoon going reinforces this as an actual intended narrative element time and again, culminating with Bob's plot to defect in Mists. Sure, it all comes to nothing in BFA when Bob's going on about how much he looks up to the Warchief and how Baine is better than sliced bread and sex, like much everything else in that wretched expansion, but the story has generally been aware of this element and works with it. By comparison, there's no actual in story reason why the night elves or dwarves take their cues from a kid despite their experience, difference in relative power and own interests.

    Entirely agreed on the Nightborne though.
    I get that the BE's bargaining position in early TBC wasn't great and that joining forces with the Horde was more a matter of necessity than taste, and Lor'themar's behavior has broadly reflected this, but as shown by the Zandalari example they could have insisted on being allies of the Horde rather than enslaved to it, especially given that Thrall is hardly the most unreasonable of Orcs. Similarly, why did Sylvanas also throw away her sovereignty to some Orc after fighting so hard to earn her freedom? Something which would bite her in the ass hard in Cata. It just seems totally out of character for anyone who has a minimal amount of spine to look at the Blood Oath and not say "oh hell no, I am so not handing my people's sovereignty and lives to one person that can be replaced at the drop of a hat just to be part of your club".

    I do agree that Anduin has a disproportionate influence, but that's because he's human, in and out of the story; in-story, the humans are the biggest kids in the Alliance bloc (yes, it makes no sense, but logistics in Warcraft never made sense at all) and out of story people like humans for some reason or another. Thus he gets to be important while the funny short dudes with beards blather on about woons and most NEs hug their trees, just like his father was super duper important despite showing up out of nowhere early Wrath and doing little but having some of his kingdom starve and partially trigger a war he was losing. That's just how it is, I don't like it but it's hardly the most egregious breach of realism amongst the factions.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    So yeah, this "but muh Taurajo!" again. You've had 10 years to play this chain on Alliance side to see that Dwarves took extra care to reduce casualties and make an open path of escape for civilians - i.e. something Murderorde never ever did in its history. Nowhere even once it is stated that their goal is "genocide" anyone and especially nobody ever says "lets kill kids/teens" as the guy I was answering to lied.
    it's not Taurajo; and what were those Dwarves even doing in Tauren ancestral lands and why are they demolishing and excavating it in the first place

    Then the dwarves of Bael'dun came and began their disruptive excavation operations, forcing the tauren out and killing many innocent tauren in the process. The tauren tried to approach the dwarves to reach a diplomatic resolution, but it failed.
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    Because the Dwarves are right now the most dominant force in the Alliance military wise. They are the ones crafting the tanks and their manpower is also bigger than anyone else within the Alliance. Why would they let themselves be governed by a Human king that inherited his military rank, and is weak on top of that?

    Let's be honest, Anduin doesn't make a great leader. He would be a great friend though! I get you! He's a friendly little fella.
    But supposedly everyone automatically likes him aside from the bad guys for some reason. Maybe that's how we know they're a villian. They don't like Anduin, boom, there's your bad guy.

    Oh and also, if you have to ask the question why an 18 year old boy with no military experiences is just made High King aka supreme commander of the Alliance like that, which would mean he's the one leading your own men within the Alliance and making all the big decisions in terms of war is seen as a bad thing, then I'm done talking to you.
    Actually its the gnomes that are the enginners not the dwarfs.

  7. #207
    I think I commented before, but the whole problem is that Blizzard wants the factions to mirror each other, instead of playing up their differences.

    The Horde has a singular Warchief -- a literal dictator -- who calls all the shots. Anyone is welcome to challenge them, but in doing so generally involving a fight to the death, thus ensuring only the strongest is Warchief, and all are loyal to them.

    The Alliance, by complete contrast, is simply a group of individual nations that agreed to come together for common purpose. As such, there should be a lot more political intrigue there. Similarly, while the Horde is relatively small as compared to the Alliance, it benefits from having extremely streamlined leadership, meaning they would be able to move and react much more quickly, whereas the Alliance would likely have more bureaucracy and competing agendas to work through.

    It's one of the reasons I thought it would be a cool twist to introduce a more "evil" race to the Alliance (something like the Mogu), who choose to align with the Alliance due to its more imperialistic values, and that they would've been forced to give up their own identity, versus the Horde, in which the Warchief really does rule all.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Actually its the gnomes that are the enginners not the dwarfs.
    if I'm not mistaken after the Gnomes had to leave the Alliance to do Gnomeragan stuff in WC3, the Dwarves learned how to engineer stuff; that's why the Gyrocopters and Steam Tanks were Dwarven and not Gnomish; and there's not a single Gnome in Bael Modan
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  9. #209
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Him making “peace” with the horde without ensuring that all territories they occupied were returned or demanding reparations was already a betrayal of Alliance.
    No not really, also not relevant to the tree burning or what he did.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    No not really, also not relevant to the tree burning or what he did.
    I mean, if we really want to go down "no other race matters but humans" then yes he sure did them a good one but he cucked one race entirely and set a precedent for sacrificing Alliance members to make peace.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I think the problem is that several of the Alliance posters, including myself have just realized that there is never going to be an adequate punishment for the Horde, mainly because an adequate punishment would make it cease to exist and that is not gonna happen.

    So in the end, what is the point of the Alliance becoming more agressive? It's never gonna achieve anything. The faction war story is dead because it inherently will never have consequences, so I arrive at the point of "screw it". If we never will have a satisfactory outcome for the faction war and the Horde will never pay for the genocides it commited then I see no point even continuing this plot strand, it will only result in more disappointment.

    I'd much rather see it left behind entirely and explore what we can do with Alliance and Horde as friends. I know you would hate this, because you believe that the faction conflict is the only worthwhile story to tell, but I can at least see the chance of the story developing into something good once we leave this pointless and oooold plot behind.

    This at least is my hope and I think it's what the writers are trying by promoting Anduin for the Alliance and bringing back the Thrall-Horde. Since I have arrived at this mental space where most change away from the faction war is a good thing, I defend both the Horde Council, Calia and Anduin as catalysts or symbols of this change.

    Now this does not mean I want to forgive the Horde, but if the options are forgiving or going through another MoP/BFA then I know where I stand.

    This being said, I still like Anduin as a character, doesn't mean I agree with every last of his decisions.
    But you cant move onto "dealing with internal issues" without either forgiving the horde or "swallowing and moving on" or "biting the pillow" since you cant start dealing with internal issues while your external issues are so glaringly obvious and fresh.

  11. #211
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I mean, if we really want to go down "no other race matters but humans" then yes he sure did them a good one but he cucked one race entirely and set a precedent for sacrificing Alliance members to make peace.
    The night elfs weren’t sacrificed for peace all of BFA was a because of what happened to them. Also Have you never heard of gilneas or thereamore? Both got the exact same treatment and they ended that war the same way as BFA there was no precedent set as the horde and alliance went though all of this already in mop.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The night elfs weren’t sacrificed for peace all of BFA was a because of what happened to them. Also Have you never heard of gilneas or thereamore? Both got the exact same treatment and they ended that war the same way as BFA there was no precedent set as the horde and alliance went though all of this already in mop.
    And does that make that normal? Trading one allied nation after another for what? A peace that lasts till next expansion and means nothing. Its not like there is some booming trade between two faction that requires peace and so "financial elites" push for it. Peace ultimately means NOTHING and ends quickly.

    Horde must die, in agony. That should be the "end goal" of Alliance since horde made its goal endless beating on the Alliance years ago. They cheer each time they get to mutilate and genocide Alliance races.

    Because WHAT ELSE THERE IS TO DO EVEN?

  13. #213
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And does that make that normal? Trading one allied nation after another for what? A peace that lasts till next expansion and means nothing. Its not like there is some booming trade between two faction that requires peace and so "financial elites" push for it. Peace ultimately means NOTHING and ends quickly.

    Horde must die, in agony. That should be the "end goal" of Alliance since horde made its goal endless beating on the Alliance years ago. They cheer each time they get to mutilate and genocide Alliance races.

    Because WHAT ELSE THERE IS TO DO EVEN?
    I suppose I shouldn't expect reasonable views even in a thread about realistic Portrayals.

    Your right there are no wealthy elite to push for peace for trade deals but you know what the alliance(SW most of all) do have? A common underclass who have a history of going hungry and rebelling due to extended wars. Stormwind was already sending farmers off to the war in 8.2 going for some nonsensical wiping out of the horde would further devastate the alliance like the war with the lichking did.

    The night elfs may be able to continue the war indefinitely due to them pretty much only being the army left but the other alliance races (baring the goats and void elfs) have to deal with there underclasses and supporting the war effort.

    Even ignoring the underclass though the alliance barley even have the forces needed to end the horde after N’Zoth the blood price would leave the alliance with pretty much no military if they could even do it would is unlikely.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-03-03 at 05:39 PM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I suppose I shouldn't expect reasonable views even in a thread about realistic Portrayals.

    Your right there are no wealthy elite to push for peace for trade deals but you know what the alliance(SW most of all) do have? A common underclass who have a history of going hungry and rebelling due to extended wars. Stormwind was already sending farmers off to the war in 8.2 going for some nonsensical wiping out of the horde would further devastate the alliance like the war with the lichking did.

    The night elfs may be able to continue the war indefinitely due to them pretty much only being the army left but the other alliance races (baring the goats and void elfs) have to deal with there underclasses and supporting the war effort.

    Even ignoring the underclass though the alliance barley even have the forces needed to end the horde after N’Zoth the blood price would leave the alliance with pretty much no military if they could even do it would is unlikely.
    And if they wait they just waiting for another “surprise genocide” that will happen after a footmen steps on a goblin or some orc gets slapped for chopping wood in Ashenvale or something like that.

    Its either going all in or being wiped out and reduced to nothing, erased over several generations.

    Its nonsense. Four wars already, enough must be enough.

    And Anduin didnt even negotiated anything from that peace. You think he even bothered to think about status of Ashenvale for example? That “resource stockpile” horde was trying to take over since forever?

  15. #215
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And if they wait they just waiting for another “surprise genocide” that will happen after a footmen steps on a goblin or some orc gets slapped for chopping wood in Ashenvale or something like that.

    Its either going all in or being wiped out and reduced to nothing, erased over several generations.

    Its nonsense. Four wars already, enough must be enough.

    And Anduin didnt even negotiated anything from that peace. You think he even bothered to think about status of Ashenvale for example? That “resource stockpile” horde was trying to take over since forever?
    So you’d take guaranteed destruction over the chance of future wars Mabye wearing them down? because that’s what trying to end the horde post 8.2 would be. More non solider would have to join the war effort, the underclass would starve like they did post wrath, the military would be decimated. Sure they might wipe out the horde in the end but there would be pretty much nothing left on the other side of that victory.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And does that make that normal? Trading one allied nation after another for what? A peace that lasts till next expansion and means nothing.
    I'll give you Teldrassil, but who else was "traded" for peace?

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I'll give you Teldrassil, but who else was "traded" for peace?
    Ashenvale which is far more important to the whole Alliance then Teldrassil.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    So you’d take guaranteed destruction over the chance of future wars Mabye wearing them down? because that’s what trying to end the horde post 8.2 would be. More non solider would have to join the war effort, the underclass would starve like they did post wrath, the military would be decimated. Sure they might wipe out the horde in the end but there would be pretty much nothing left on the other side of that victory.
    I mean, whole USSR had to starve, lose huge swaths of population and live on scraps and rat shit but they won the war and it was worth it since otherwise they would have eventually lose entirely and be wiped out.

    And besides, there are also neutral factions to take care of “third party threats”.

    And if they dont do that, wiping the horde out still better then waiting for another dagger to plunge into your back. It will drive you insane long before the strike comes.

    Also there is still Ashenvale part you didnt replied to.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Ashenvale which is far more important to the whole Alliance then Teldrassil.
    I thought it was obvious, but by Teldrassil I was referencing the night elves as one "nation" of many that you claim were sacrificed for the sake of peace. Ashenvale is certainly not a separate nation.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I thought it was obvious, but by Teldrassil I was referencing the night elves as one "nation" of many that you claim were sacrificed for the sake of peace. Ashenvale is certainly not a separate nation.
    Oh, i misunderstood then. I meant Gilneans and Theramore.

  20. #220
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I mean, whole USSR had to starve, lose huge swaths of population and live on scraps and rat shit but they won the war and it was worth it since otherwise they would have eventually lose entirely and be wiped out
    the USSR wasn’t fighting alone and they didn’t go for wiping out Every enemy nation just removing the ruling party and ending the war which is what happened in bfa.

    And besides, there are also neutral factions to take care of “third party threats”.
    there really isn’t. The cenarion circle would have more or less ended with the night elf portion fighting the horde with the alliance.

    The earthen ring is made up of active horde/alliance members with sylvanas threatening to pull support from it.

    The argent dawn are worthless with horde/alliance support.

    the rest are in the same boat as the dawn.

    And if they dont do that, wiping the horde out still better then waiting for another dagger to plunge into your back. It will drive you insane long before the strike comes.
    destroying your self is a far worse idea then returning to a classic-cata Cold War state and reviving and building strength.

    Also there is still Ashenvale part you didnt replied to.
    I don’t really see any point talking about ashenvale as we have no info on it’s state post BFA and people saying it was given up to the horde are just assuming that based on said lack of info.

    Unless I missed some short story or such which is possible I guess.

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