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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Vrykul we fought in Legion are not from Northrend. For all we know aggression against northred vrykul ended when Lich was gone or rather replaced. And Legion vrykuls (or kvaldirs) worshipped another evil entity.
    You don't get it, whether aggression in the north ceased after a genocide is pointless. It would just mean there were other methods, such as getting rid of their leaders. Ultimately the Vrykul are Odyns chosen people as the defenders of the planet.

    Genocide is genocide, period

    And naga never shown signs of having free, non-evil will. They only invade dry land to pillage, enslave and kill and never tried to parlay.
    Some worship neptulon, some are part of the illidari

  2. #102
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    The fact that High King is a military title is stupid as all hell isn't it.

    Of all the things it couldve been called it had to be named something that sounds like they're the supreme leader of the Alliance.

    Why not call it Surpreme Commander instead.
    Not really. High King when it was an alliance of Kingdoms make sense. He would have been chosen to be King above the others. But, that isn't how a lot of the races of the modern alliance are.

    You have Humans and Gilneans who are Kingdoms. Kul Tirans function identically to a Kingdom save that their leader is selected as Lord Admiral, but that person is effectively King or Queen. The Dwarves are a Kingdom so they would recognize a King above Kings. And the Void Elves are Blood Elves who are High Elves who come from a Kingdom.

    The other races don't really have "Kings" or royalty. So the title of High King seems weird when we look at them. Pandaren that are playable come do not have a king or leader so to speak. So, honestly, the title High King as a military title doesn't fit most races.

    Fits: Humans and Worgen
    Could be argued to fit: Dwarves, Dark Iron, Void Elves and Kul Tiran.
    Does not: Draenei, Lightforged Draenei, Gnomes, Mechnagnomes, Pandaren, and Night Elves.

    While the Mechnagnomes have had a king, given they made Mechatorque their new leader over the prince, it appears they recognize merit over birthright.

    Essentially, High King as a Military title only works when all (or most) Militaries are lead by a King.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    *Massive emotional rant*
    Okay, that's your arguments, now support them with claims.

    I'll help. The orcs accepting Sylvanas as the Warchief was due to two things.

    1. The utterly fascistoid nature of the Horde where the factions were expected to have dual loyalty to both their faction leader and the Warchief even if they're from a different faction due to the Blood Oath.
    2. She was named as successor by a popular Warchief who would never do so in the first place. Which makes it even more plausible that he could have done that. He was opposed to her yet named her anyway. So it must have been legit. It's a real tactic done by people who want to look better than they act. First, they make it well-known that they're the opposite of what they want to do by words and actions. And then when they finally show do what they really intent then no one will believe anyone who raises alarms about it.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    While the Mechnagnomes have had a king, given they made Mechatorque their new leader over the prince, it appears they recognize merit over birthright.
    They made Mechatorque King, to unite all gnome kind under him, thus ending the only "democracy" in the Alliance.

  5. #105
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    The night elves are refugees because Anduin did not send any help to aid Teldrassil against the Horde onslaught, neither did the space goats living next door. They just let the enemy prevail. We will never know why.
    Anduin did send help when teldrassil was under siege the lore just doesn’t work the same as ingame so troops don’t just show up instantly, even the night elfs fleets who would have been just down the cost couldn’t
    Make it back in time so stormwind troops never had a chance and they had all of there mages working around the clock to get night els out.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    But Vindicaar has plot shield that allows it to survive constant attacks while flying close to the surface of Legion throne world of all things. Of course its overpowered.
    Oh yeah I forgot: power levels vary depending on the necessities of the writers too!
    So Anduin wrecks tanks meant to be army wide threats but can't defend against two scrawny valkyrs.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because majority of Taurajo casualties are caused by quillboars and Overgrowth plants.

    Also because attacking vulpera caravans who were hauling cargo for the horde, military cargo at that is a legitimate strategy and not a crime. Vulpera mercenaries are not civilians. And no, “they are cute” dosent count since its the Rocket Raccoon thing all over again - size dont matter.
    Taurajo spirits specifically mentions children screaming, the fires burning and all of that. So unless the Alliance attacked the camp with quillboars and overgrowth, we're a little far from reality.

    And about the Vulpera, call it what you will: sending purging squads to cancel an entire race is genocide. The fact that it got retconned before the PTR got live of course changes the entire thing and neuters it, but that's the point: the original intent gets changed because it would put the Alliance in a bad light.

  7. #107
    Stood in the Fire Frinata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    Anduin wouldn't of been able to inherit the High King title. Because that's a military rank, bestowed upon Varian by a count between the Alliance's leaders.
    If this was actually real, the Dwarves would've either cut themselves off from the Alliance, the Night Elves wouldn't co-operate with the Humans anymore, Genn would focus on trying to reclaim Gilneas, the Gnomes would side with the Dwarves because Anduin being named High King would just reek of corruption. He's just a boy, not fit to rule the Alliance as a military leader.
    Obviously the leaders of the races besides Humans would look very, very weak towards their people. They would think that their leaders are weak, that they don't care about them. That they bow down before the Humans. The races of non humans would revolt against their leaders.

    The Humans, as a side note, are culturally taking over the Alliance as some sort of Imperialistic government. The state that every race is donned in Stormwind armor tells enough.

    If we were really realistic, the Elves wouldn't allow themselves to get governed by a Human. But that ship has sailed.

    Anyway, let's say Anduin wouldn't have been able to be High King. His kingdom, his lords would've already tried to usurp him by the point of the battle for Lordaeron, as he is weak military wise and weak physically wise (it's canon that Anduin SUCKS as a sword fighter, even his warrior of a father gave up on him). He doesn't interact with the Lords and nobels of Stormwind anymore, hell Varian didn't either after WotLK. It's like they all died or something.

    Ah but, I forgot. This IS Blizzard. I forgot that, they don't do those storylines anymore. Nope, only Marvel-esque storytelling allowed here. Something something writers and twitter something. You know the deal.

    Only fictional storylines of extraterrestial threats are allowed here. No infighting allowed, unless you faction is the Horde.

    BUT WAIT:
    Somehow, somehow, the Orcs were content with Sylvanas being named Warchief, despite the Orcs having almost no good standing with the Undead thanks to the Wrathgate, Garrosh Hellscream and his propaganda against them, aswell as their "dishonorable" tactics on the battlefield. Imagine Sylvanas being named Warchief in the heart of Orgrimmar and no Orcs within the city made up of mostly Orcs would dispute that claim of title and challenge her to a mak'gora.
    Sylvanas has neither interacted much with the Horde apart from her involvement with the Lich King one dungeon and that one time she took the spotlight from Vol'jin, because the writer's were already setting her as Warchief before the dude even got stabbed from a demon. Besides those moments, all she interacted with was the throne in her Throne room and the Forsaken.

    So I guess even both factions get screwed logically wise and this whole ordeal is just a fallacy of writer's just writing whatever the fuck they want instead of being consistent and truthful to the source, but who gives a SHIT when you can just write that everything's happy with eachother in this perfect world of Azeroth and you can just go back and retcon and change things to your liking because you're too uncreative to come up with anything new so your only solution is to change things that happened before your time because you think you somehow come off as creative in doing so but instead you just disrespect the whole franchise with your gibberish and bias towards your favorite characters.
    So, we're looking for realism in a world where a giant man with a flaming beard that is fifty times bigger then the planet we exist on, grabbed a sword that is almost as big as him with one hand, and began to stab it into our planet, and that wasn't an extinction level event even if he didn't complete the motion?

    Alright. So, let's digest this one point at a time, and go from there.

    Anduin gaining the military title that's otherwise appointed by Alliance leader vote does seem a bit silly, I'll grant that. Him being the leader of Stormwind shouldn't of automaticly given him leadership of the Alliance. But the time that it happened was a chaotic one, and Varian isn't the only person in Stormwind making plans and all the like. He's been training other people to lead as well, his son being one of them. It's possible, not likely, but possible that the other leaders didn't want to upset the political structure of things when they were in the middle of a war for survival, and just suffered a massive loss. One thing to remember is the timing of this. It happened just after the failed Assault on the Broken Shore. The Alliance lost alot of soldiers, and their High King, any amount of infighting could of left them too weak to act, and thus, could of contributed to a Legion victory. They put aside politics (Except for Genn, we'll get there in a moment.)

    The Dwarves wouldn't of left the Alliance even if there were to be an outrage. They know what it's like to infight, having just started to work together with the rest of their own kind. They'd offer counsel, and do what they can to keep the Alliance together. They're just as much enemies with the Legion as they are the Horde, and if they stand alone, both sides would take advantage of that.

    The Night Elves are the same way, but to an even bigger extent. They've banded together with races they don't exactly approve of several times to save the world, and other scenarios. Humanity has, at this point, done them extremely well. They would stick it out.

    The Gnomes fall under the same heading as the Dwarves.


    Genn and the Worgen need the Alliance. They were on their own, and in so doing, the Forsaken walked all over them. The only reason they survived was because the Night Elves showed up. They tried to retake Gilneas in the Cataclysm storyline, and failed hard at it. There was a good effort, but Sylvanas' tactics overwhelmed them. If they tried to reclaim Gilneas without the Alliance, they would die out as a faction.

    No one would accuse Tyrande or Malfurion of being weak. Tyrande is High Priestess of Elune, and one of the most attuned ones at that. She can do what fifty of her people can't. During the War of the Ancients, she was constantly on the move, healing all those that needed it, and never once felt an ounce of fatigue in doing so. More over, she was able to heal wounds that previous Priestesses just couldn't. She is a marvel, and everyone of her people knows it. Malfurion is the greatest Druid Azeroth knows. He could likely take on an army on his own. They're not weak. They're wise.

    Of the leaders, only Genn could really be seen as a weak leader, and some of his people do see him as that. Through his failed leadership, he isolated Gilneas, let the Worgen's curse run rampant, chase them out of their Captial city, and then lost the entire country to the Forsaken without much resistance, and has failed every attempt at reclaiming it since, all the while sitting next to the Leader of the Alliance. It's through his own doing that he fosters this image of incompetance. And it shows. He is an incompetant leader, but not a terrible one at the same time. Let's view that again in a different aspect. Through his leadership, he saw the corruption of the Lordaeron Alliance, and didn't want his people to suffer, so he cut them off from it, so that they could recover and live in peace. When the Worgen Curse spread through their city, he did everything in his power to protect them, and evacuate the city, and when it was discovered that there was a way for them to calm the rage these Worgen felt, he spent all his effort into achieving this, eventually freeing his people from madness. He has since never given up on trying to reclaim his home, pushing for the campaign at every possible point. The only inexcusable thing he has done, is his attack on the Forsaken in Stormheim. He was under strict orders to not engage the Horde unless there was a absolute need for it. They didn't even wait to see if there was one, the moment the ships came into range, the Skyfire opened up on them. And in doing so, they lost the greatest Airship the Alliance had at it's disposal, and didn't even claim the intended target (Sylvanas.)

    While the Alliance claims to be very open to the other race's cultures that exist within it, it can't really be denied that Humanity has been prominant in the display. Hell, even the idea of the Alliance is human based. Alot of their campaigns have served Humanity well, where as only tangently benefiting the other races.

    The Elves, be it High Elves, Void Elves, or Night Elves, don't really care until a certain point in the story. They aren't participating in something they wouldn't otherwise have already been participating in. The difference is, they weren't doing it alone, because they know they'd lose against a combined Horde threat. And they did. Because they were alone. Teldrassil's burning did alot of things to the Night Elves and their position in the Alliance. Sylvanas' goal (that was stated as her goal to the Horde, calm down), was to break the Alliance up with infighting. With the Horde occupying Teldrassil, it would put the pressure on Anduin to reclaim it. Tyrande was identified as someone who loved her people, and would do everything for them, no matter the cost, and as soon as it was possible. She wouldn't want to waste a single second. If the Alliance wanted to keep the Night Elves in the Alliance, then they would have to act on that fast. But to do that and reclaim a freshly occupied Teldrassil would piss off the Worgen, and they would break faith with the Alliance to try and do what you suggested earlier, and try to reclaim Gilneas on their own. This would leave the Alliance open to a still unified and strong Horde. Of course, this never came to pass. But there are still remnants of this plan rippling in the Alliance today.

    Tyrande, during BFA, demanded vengeance, and to take back Darkshore, but the Alliance were already commited to the war on Kul'tiras and Zandalar, and could offer no troops, and Anduin wanted Tyrande to wait, that the time would come eventually. Tyrande didn't wait. She left on her own to see it done. She commited her forces outside of Alliance control. The only reason this didn't end the Kal'dorei, was because of the Night Warrior, and Malfurion.

    Anduin as a normal King, and not High King, wouldn't of been usurped. Varian was loved by his people, and everyone respects Anduin as well. He's always strived for peace, and the best for everyone. The corrupt lords and ladies of Stormwind were dealt with by Varian on his return, because of Onyxia. Onyxia, in Vanilla, had been corrupting the politics of Stormwind from within, in an effort to weaken them. This was a storyline dealt with in Vanilla.

    Anduin isn't weak, either. Your canon example of him being weak was in his 'fight' against Garrosh. You know. When he was a young Teenager who wasn't wearing armour. Going up against a Warrior in his absolute prime. That's not a fair comparison. That would be like saying your main is weak because he can't pull the sword out of Silithus. I mean, come on, we saw Sargeras plunge that in, why can't you do it?

    We aren't shown Anduin (or Varian) really interacting with the Nobles, but that's because that's not the story the game is trying to tell. In which way is the story of World of Warcraft served, by focusing on the Stormwind politics alone? Would I like to see that? Yeah, sure I would, but it's not at all a focus, until a book is made solely about that. And that book will sell horribly.

    You accusing Blizzard of doing Marvel-esque storytelling is a weird insult, because that implies that Marvel storytelling is bad. I'll put personal opinions aside here and simply state that this isn't an arguement in your favor.

    BFA had alot of infighting on the Alliance. The above mentioned Night Elves, the begging of Jaina Proudmoore in Legion, to the point that she just straight up quit the Kirin Tor, and abandoned the Alliance during Legion, Jaina trying to Palpatine Varian into killing off the Horde in MoP, Jaina purging the... Horde... From... Dalaran in... MoP... Jeez Jaina you are a source of it. The point is, there is alot of infighting in the Alliance, it's just that there hasn't been a final raidboss of Anduin after he went corrupt and kicked out every race that didn't bow down to his proposed genocide.

    The Orcs weren't the biggest fans of Sylvanas, and her appointment to Warchief. But here's the thing to remember again; They were in a war for survival. Any problems they had, would have to wait. And for what it's worth, She led them well up until Teldrassil. She trusted the other races to do as they were told, as well as to propose plans and ideas to her. She kept them safe. She made it a goal to seek out salvation. She helped the Horde Champion to secure one of the Pillars of Creation. She swiftly realised that the Alliance were never going to agree to a long term peace if it was proposed by them. Any peace had to come from the point of a sword, and she had Saurfang, a trusted Orc leader, make the plan and propose it, because she knew her own reputation in the Horde. She was their Warchief, but she knew that her hold on it wasn't solidified in a time of peace. She needed war.

    Garrosh's propaganda would of been dismissed outright when the Forsaken participated in the Siege of Orgrimmar, and played a large role in it. Anyone who thought that the disgraced former Warchief's words would hold weight towards an active member of the Horde is just a Garrosh loyalist in disguise.

    Sylvanas works best in the shadows. Her motives unclear to many. Sure, it was self-serving, but there were always benefits to the Horde and the Forsaken as a whole as it appeared to be. Anything she did, there were multiple reasons for it. And so while she was a shady leader, they atleast trusted her to have the Horde's interests at heart, and under Vol'jin's leadership, she atleast appeared to listen. There's not much to go off of on that aside from the lack of evidence otherwise. But lack of evidence doesn't mean there isn't evidence. We just haven't found it. And until proven otherwise, I'm going to give this to Vol'jin.

    The writing is as bad as you're willing to look into it. At a surface level analysis, it does look bad. But once you peer beyond the veil, you can start to understand alot of things. Some of what you stated isn't wrong, but some of what you stated isn't right, either. I hope this helps to clear it up some.

    There might be some things that are wrong in mine as well, feel free to correct it with a cited source, but let's not devolve into a 'well this is my understanding'.

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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Anduin did send help when teldrassil was under siege the lore just doesn’t work the same as ingame so troops don’t just show up instantly, even the night elfs fleets who would have been just down the cost couldn’t
    Make it back in time so stormwind troops never had a chance and they had all of there mages working around the clock to get night els out.
    It is not what he intended to do though, he wanted to send troops to help the night elves, he told genn as much during elegy. Tyrande was very happy to hear it, but ultimately he did no such thing, when the night elves eventually asked for that military support.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Okay, that's your arguments, now support them with claims.

    I'll help. The orcs accepting Sylvanas as the Warchief was due to two things.

    1. The utterly fascistoid nature of the Horde where the factions were expected to have dual loyalty to both their faction leader and the Warchief even if they're from a different faction due to the Blood Oath.
    2. She was named as successor by a popular Warchief who would never do so in the first place. Which makes it even more plausible that he could have done that. He was opposed to her yet named her anyway. So it must have been legit. It's a real tactic done by people who want to look better than they act. First, they make it well-known that they're the opposite of what they want to do by words and actions. And then when they finally show do what they really intent then no one will believe anyone who raises alarms about it.
    Horde never really worked like that for 1), and only slightly for 2). It's always implied that Warchief is someone who other members of the Horde accept and respect. That's the purpose of Mak'Gora, if a Warchief seems too weak or unpopular to rule he/she is vulnerable to a challenge.

    I think the cutscene after Vol'Jins death showcase it pretty well - Sylvanas was afraid that she won't be accepted by the Horde, and relieved that after her short speech everyone cheered for her as the new Warchief. She was a popular pick even for other races, especially after a battle in which she took command and pretty much saved the rest of the Horde leadership.

    Of course that was before BfA, which implied that she was always evil, and tricked everyone from the start. One could wonder why no one challenged her before Saurfang if that's the case, but oh well. Politics.

  10. #110
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is not what he intended to do though, he wanted to send troops to help the night elves, he told genn as much during elegy. Tyrande was very happy to hear it, but ultimately he did no such thing, when the night elves eventually asked for that military support.
    Defending teldrassil =/= the battle for dark shore. The night elfs aren’t refugees because of the battle for dark shore rather he supported them or not in it is irrelevant to the night elfs being refugees.

  11. #111
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Anduin has absolutely no stomach for battle. He's a little weasel in a big lion costume.

    Look at his dealing with the forsaken pre BFA, he was trying to force everyone to become bestest buddies and make friends with old relatives. It's admirable in a way; but surely he knew some would try to defect and that it would antagonise Sylvanas. Up to that point in the story, there was a very clear narrative that she loved her people encouraging them to hop the fence wasn't a wise/kingly thing to do, it was straight up stupid.

    Any strength Anduin appeared to have came from being so morally righteous all the time. The trouble with the writing is that the horde have to be shown as bad guys to contrast what a great guy Anduin is.

  12. #112
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Anduin has absolutely no stomach for battle. He's a little weasel in a big lion costume.

    Look at his dealing with the forsaken pre BFA, he was trying to force everyone to become bestest buddies and make friends with old relatives. It's admirable in a way; but surely he knew some would try to defect and that it would antagonise Sylvanas. Up to that point in the story, there was a very clear narrative that she loved her people encouraging them to hop the fence wasn't a wise/kingly thing to do, it was straight up stupid.

    Any strength Anduin appeared to have came from being so morally righteous all the time. The trouble with the writing is that the horde have to be shown as bad guys to contrast what a great guy Anduin is.
    Why would anduin expect the forsaken to defect or if they did for it to
    Matter? All forsaken lore prior to BTS framed forsaken as being hyper loyal to sylvanas, but even if that wasn’t the case the forsaken were also shown to have the ability to leave the forsaken of there own free will if they wanted to.

    Anduin wanting the meeting and not expecting any problems makes
    Perfect sense and The only reason it went wrong is that they retconned forsaken lore in BTS.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Not really. High King when it was an alliance of Kingdoms make sense. He would have been chosen to be King above the others. But, that isn't how a lot of the races of the modern alliance are.

    You have Humans and Gilneans who are Kingdoms. Kul Tirans function identically to a Kingdom save that their leader is selected as Lord Admiral, but that person is effectively King or Queen. The Dwarves are a Kingdom so they would recognize a King above Kings. And the Void Elves are Blood Elves who are High Elves who come from a Kingdom.

    The other races don't really have "Kings" or royalty. So the title of High King seems weird when we look at them. Pandaren that are playable come do not have a king or leader so to speak. So, honestly, the title High King as a military title doesn't fit most races.

    Fits: Humans and Worgen
    Could be argued to fit: Dwarves, Dark Iron, Void Elves and Kul Tiran.
    Does not: Draenei, Lightforged Draenei, Gnomes, Mechnagnomes, Pandaren, and Night Elves.

    While the Mechnagnomes have had a king, given they made Mechatorque their new leader over the prince, it appears they recognize merit over birthright.

    Essentially, High King as a Military title only works when all (or most) Militaries are lead by a King.
    Even when it was an alliance of kingdoms it didn't make sense. The term "King" refers to monarchs who rule and govern kingdoms.

    High King is purely a military title yet in its name is a term that only partially has to do with commanding armies.

    They had a heap of other options to choose from that didn't carry with it the connotations that "king" does such as like I said "Surpreme Commander" or "High General" or what have you.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    While that's correct, Garrosh was never presented as the walking morality litmus of Warcraft - quite the opposite, in fact.
    Oh, agreed! The characters are very different. My point was that Anduin wasn't the first person to be depicted as weak and then growing in strength/political clout rapidly, having more competent leaders passed over to promote him to the head of a faction. It's not even an Alliance-centric issue. It just seems to be the type of story that Blizzard wants to tell; they pick a character to highlight, focus on that character, shove others aside to put them firmly in the spotlight, and then do dramatic stuff with/to that character.

  15. #115
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Why would anduin expect the forsaken to defect or if they did for it to
    Matter? All forsaken lore prior to BTS framed forsaken as being hyper loyal to sylvanas, but even if that wasn’t the case the forsaken were also shown to have the ability to leave the forsaken of there own free will if they wanted to.

    Anduin wanting the meeting and not expecting any problems makes
    Perfect sense and The only reason it went wrong is that they retconned forsaken lore in BTS.
    What then would be the point of having them meet cross faction?

    Anduin expecting no problems makes zero sense. 'Hey here are your aging parents you can see them this once and if us leaders deem it suitable then we might let you see each other again.' How many people would be happy with that arrangement. Of course, there were some who didn't want to engage with their loved ones and that was a valid choice. Just look at the people who are currently locked down and how desperate some of them are to be reunited.

    The whole scenario was written to underline Anduin good, Sylvanas bad.

  16. #116
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    What then would be the point of having them meet cross faction?

    Anduin expecting no problems makes zero sense. 'Hey here are your aging parents you can see them this once and if us leaders deem it suitable then we might let you see each other again.' How many people would be happy with that arrangement. Of course, there were some who didn't want to engage with their loved ones and that was a valid choice. Just look at the people who are currently locked down and how desperate some of them are to be reunited.

    The whole scenario was written to underline Anduin good, Sylvanas bad.
    The whole point of the meeting was to be a first of many so the humans and forsaken could have a pathway to lasting peace and with the pre BTS forsaken lore that makes perfect Sense.

    Cata established that the forsaken were holding onto there lorderon heritage hard so wanting to reconnect with other people from lorderon makes sense. It also established that the forsaken can freely choose to leave and do there own thing and then war crimes shows that living and forsaken can reconnect as family with sylvanas her self being the one to Do it.

    All of that lore had to be thrown out the window for sylvanas and the forsaken to act the way they did in BTS.

  17. #117
    High King title doesn't make sense anymore, because Anduin himself appointed that fanatical sadist Turalyon as Lord Commander of the Alliance forces.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Horde never really worked like that for 1), and only slightly for 2). It's always implied that Warchief is someone who other members of the Horde accept and respect. That's the purpose of Mak'Gora, if a Warchief seems too weak or unpopular to rule he/she is vulnerable to a challenge.

    I think the cutscene after Vol'Jins death showcase it pretty well - Sylvanas was afraid that she won't be accepted by the Horde, and relieved that after her short speech everyone cheered for her as the new Warchief. She was a popular pick even for other races, especially after a battle in which she took command and pretty much saved the rest of the Horde leadership.

    Of course that was before BfA, which implied that she was always evil, and tricked everyone from the start. One could wonder why no one challenged her before Saurfang if that's the case, but oh well. Politics.
    Your point is wrong. If that was the objective reality then the factions would decide who was Warchief, instead, the sitting Warchief can unilaterally choose their successor. What you've described has been the criteria that they've chosen from, however, a complete bastard of a Warchief could choose another complete bastard to be their successor, and the only recourse the other factions would have is war as the Blood Oath prevents them from disobeying the Warchief or a Mak'gora which would cement their position as unassailable if they won. Garrosh and Sylvanas are in no way the exceptions in this wet dream of authoritarianism. Thrall and Vol'jin were the odd ones out for respecting the rest of the faction leader instead of taking unilateral decisions, such as Garrosh and Sylvanas did as it was fully within their rights to do so.

    No matter which way you turn it objectively Thrall based his Horde on the old Horde, including the leadership structure which was essentially "Might Make Right" and extremely fascistoid even if he was unaware of it.

    Of course, she was worried. The only way that the Horde has to oppose an unpopular leader is a Mak'gora that would usually end fatally for them if they lost while being unpopular. She got the benefit of the doubt because a person who opposed her vouched for her.

    And I would never say that Sytlvanas was always evil. She's always been extremely easy to manipulate with her giant narcissism and unjustified sense of entitlement if you found the right levers. Varimathras did this, Godfrey did this, Azshara did this, and now we have Zovaal doing this. There's nothing new in this, other than Blizzard showing her as extremely naive while at the same time calling her a master schemer, which is extremely cognitively dissonant.
    Last edited by Quaade; 2021-03-01 at 06:10 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    Drivel.
    The alliance started as an alliance between the human kingdoms and evolved to incorporate some dwarves and elves.

    Its primarily an alliance of the human kingdoms. Thats why the high king is a human.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Of course, she was worried. The only way that the Horde has to oppose an unpopular leader is a Mak'ghora that would usually end fatally for them if they lost while being unpopular. She got the benefit of the doubt because a person who opposed her vouched for her.
    That's my point. Horde values strength and unity. If the Warchief is weak, anyone can challenge him and take the seat. If unpopular with the rest of the Horde, he'd be constantly challenged and opposed, eventually falling to someone stronger. That's why Sylvanas cinematic did kind of show two things - that Horde respected her strength and power, and believed her to be a good leader.

    See what happened with Garrosh - Mak'Gora shortly after his appointment, which he would have lost if Magatha didn't Magatha. It didn't matter that he was chosen by freaking Thrall. At least to me this proves that Sylvanas was (initially) seen as an even better Warchief than quite popular Garrosh, as she wasn't challenged and her appointment was met with a resounding zugzug.

    The system is tribal in nature and works well for the Horde. Having "Horde council" kind of sucks ass to be honest.

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