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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Him making “peace” with the horde without ensuring that all territories they occupied were returned or demanding reparations was already a betrayal of Alliance.
    No not really, also not relevant to the tree burning or what he did.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    No not really, also not relevant to the tree burning or what he did.
    I mean, if we really want to go down "no other race matters but humans" then yes he sure did them a good one but he cucked one race entirely and set a precedent for sacrificing Alliance members to make peace.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I think the problem is that several of the Alliance posters, including myself have just realized that there is never going to be an adequate punishment for the Horde, mainly because an adequate punishment would make it cease to exist and that is not gonna happen.

    So in the end, what is the point of the Alliance becoming more agressive? It's never gonna achieve anything. The faction war story is dead because it inherently will never have consequences, so I arrive at the point of "screw it". If we never will have a satisfactory outcome for the faction war and the Horde will never pay for the genocides it commited then I see no point even continuing this plot strand, it will only result in more disappointment.

    I'd much rather see it left behind entirely and explore what we can do with Alliance and Horde as friends. I know you would hate this, because you believe that the faction conflict is the only worthwhile story to tell, but I can at least see the chance of the story developing into something good once we leave this pointless and oooold plot behind.

    This at least is my hope and I think it's what the writers are trying by promoting Anduin for the Alliance and bringing back the Thrall-Horde. Since I have arrived at this mental space where most change away from the faction war is a good thing, I defend both the Horde Council, Calia and Anduin as catalysts or symbols of this change.

    Now this does not mean I want to forgive the Horde, but if the options are forgiving or going through another MoP/BFA then I know where I stand.

    This being said, I still like Anduin as a character, doesn't mean I agree with every last of his decisions.
    But you cant move onto "dealing with internal issues" without either forgiving the horde or "swallowing and moving on" or "biting the pillow" since you cant start dealing with internal issues while your external issues are so glaringly obvious and fresh.

  3. #203
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I mean, if we really want to go down "no other race matters but humans" then yes he sure did them a good one but he cucked one race entirely and set a precedent for sacrificing Alliance members to make peace.
    The night elfs weren’t sacrificed for peace all of BFA was a because of what happened to them. Also Have you never heard of gilneas or thereamore? Both got the exact same treatment and they ended that war the same way as BFA there was no precedent set as the horde and alliance went though all of this already in mop.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The night elfs weren’t sacrificed for peace all of BFA was a because of what happened to them. Also Have you never heard of gilneas or thereamore? Both got the exact same treatment and they ended that war the same way as BFA there was no precedent set as the horde and alliance went though all of this already in mop.
    And does that make that normal? Trading one allied nation after another for what? A peace that lasts till next expansion and means nothing. Its not like there is some booming trade between two faction that requires peace and so "financial elites" push for it. Peace ultimately means NOTHING and ends quickly.

    Horde must die, in agony. That should be the "end goal" of Alliance since horde made its goal endless beating on the Alliance years ago. They cheer each time they get to mutilate and genocide Alliance races.

    Because WHAT ELSE THERE IS TO DO EVEN?

  5. #205
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And does that make that normal? Trading one allied nation after another for what? A peace that lasts till next expansion and means nothing. Its not like there is some booming trade between two faction that requires peace and so "financial elites" push for it. Peace ultimately means NOTHING and ends quickly.

    Horde must die, in agony. That should be the "end goal" of Alliance since horde made its goal endless beating on the Alliance years ago. They cheer each time they get to mutilate and genocide Alliance races.

    Because WHAT ELSE THERE IS TO DO EVEN?
    I suppose I shouldn't expect reasonable views even in a thread about realistic Portrayals.

    Your right there are no wealthy elite to push for peace for trade deals but you know what the alliance(SW most of all) do have? A common underclass who have a history of going hungry and rebelling due to extended wars. Stormwind was already sending farmers off to the war in 8.2 going for some nonsensical wiping out of the horde would further devastate the alliance like the war with the lichking did.

    The night elfs may be able to continue the war indefinitely due to them pretty much only being the army left but the other alliance races (baring the goats and void elfs) have to deal with there underclasses and supporting the war effort.

    Even ignoring the underclass though the alliance barley even have the forces needed to end the horde after N’Zoth the blood price would leave the alliance with pretty much no military if they could even do it would is unlikely.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-03-03 at 05:39 PM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I suppose I shouldn't expect reasonable views even in a thread about realistic Portrayals.

    Your right there are no wealthy elite to push for peace for trade deals but you know what the alliance(SW most of all) do have? A common underclass who have a history of going hungry and rebelling due to extended wars. Stormwind was already sending farmers off to the war in 8.2 going for some nonsensical wiping out of the horde would further devastate the alliance like the war with the lichking did.

    The night elfs may be able to continue the war indefinitely due to them pretty much only being the army left but the other alliance races (baring the goats and void elfs) have to deal with there underclasses and supporting the war effort.

    Even ignoring the underclass though the alliance barley even have the forces needed to end the horde after N’Zoth the blood price would leave the alliance with pretty much no military if they could even do it would is unlikely.
    And if they wait they just waiting for another “surprise genocide” that will happen after a footmen steps on a goblin or some orc gets slapped for chopping wood in Ashenvale or something like that.

    Its either going all in or being wiped out and reduced to nothing, erased over several generations.

    Its nonsense. Four wars already, enough must be enough.

    And Anduin didnt even negotiated anything from that peace. You think he even bothered to think about status of Ashenvale for example? That “resource stockpile” horde was trying to take over since forever?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And if they wait they just waiting for another “surprise genocide” that will happen after a footmen steps on a goblin or some orc gets slapped for chopping wood in Ashenvale or something like that.

    Its either going all in or being wiped out and reduced to nothing, erased over several generations.

    Its nonsense. Four wars already, enough must be enough.

    And Anduin didnt even negotiated anything from that peace. You think he even bothered to think about status of Ashenvale for example? That “resource stockpile” horde was trying to take over since forever?
    So you’d take guaranteed destruction over the chance of future wars Mabye wearing them down? because that’s what trying to end the horde post 8.2 would be. More non solider would have to join the war effort, the underclass would starve like they did post wrath, the military would be decimated. Sure they might wipe out the horde in the end but there would be pretty much nothing left on the other side of that victory.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And does that make that normal? Trading one allied nation after another for what? A peace that lasts till next expansion and means nothing.
    I'll give you Teldrassil, but who else was "traded" for peace?

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I'll give you Teldrassil, but who else was "traded" for peace?
    Ashenvale which is far more important to the whole Alliance then Teldrassil.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    So you’d take guaranteed destruction over the chance of future wars Mabye wearing them down? because that’s what trying to end the horde post 8.2 would be. More non solider would have to join the war effort, the underclass would starve like they did post wrath, the military would be decimated. Sure they might wipe out the horde in the end but there would be pretty much nothing left on the other side of that victory.
    I mean, whole USSR had to starve, lose huge swaths of population and live on scraps and rat shit but they won the war and it was worth it since otherwise they would have eventually lose entirely and be wiped out.

    And besides, there are also neutral factions to take care of “third party threats”.

    And if they dont do that, wiping the horde out still better then waiting for another dagger to plunge into your back. It will drive you insane long before the strike comes.

    Also there is still Ashenvale part you didnt replied to.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Ashenvale which is far more important to the whole Alliance then Teldrassil.
    I thought it was obvious, but by Teldrassil I was referencing the night elves as one "nation" of many that you claim were sacrificed for the sake of peace. Ashenvale is certainly not a separate nation.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I thought it was obvious, but by Teldrassil I was referencing the night elves as one "nation" of many that you claim were sacrificed for the sake of peace. Ashenvale is certainly not a separate nation.
    Oh, i misunderstood then. I meant Gilneans and Theramore.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I mean, whole USSR had to starve, lose huge swaths of population and live on scraps and rat shit but they won the war and it was worth it since otherwise they would have eventually lose entirely and be wiped out
    the USSR wasn’t fighting alone and they didn’t go for wiping out Every enemy nation just removing the ruling party and ending the war which is what happened in bfa.

    And besides, there are also neutral factions to take care of “third party threats”.
    there really isn’t. The cenarion circle would have more or less ended with the night elf portion fighting the horde with the alliance.

    The earthen ring is made up of active horde/alliance members with sylvanas threatening to pull support from it.

    The argent dawn are worthless with horde/alliance support.

    the rest are in the same boat as the dawn.

    And if they dont do that, wiping the horde out still better then waiting for another dagger to plunge into your back. It will drive you insane long before the strike comes.
    destroying your self is a far worse idea then returning to a classic-cata Cold War state and reviving and building strength.

    Also there is still Ashenvale part you didnt replied to.
    I don’t really see any point talking about ashenvale as we have no info on it’s state post BFA and people saying it was given up to the horde are just assuming that based on said lack of info.

    Unless I missed some short story or such which is possible I guess.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I mean, whole USSR had to starve, lose huge swaths of population and live on scraps and rat shit but they won the war and it was worth it since otherwise they would have eventually lose entirely and be wiped out.
    It was worth it so that they can start their own famines!

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    the USSR wasn’t fighting alone and they didn’t go for wiping out Every enemy nation just removing the ruling party and ending the war which is what happened in bfa.

    there really isn’t. The cenarion circle would have more or less ended with the night elf portion fighting the horde with the alliance.

    The earthen ring is made up of active horde/alliance members with sylvanas threatening to pull support from it.

    The argent dawn are worthless with horde/alliance support.

    the rest are in the same boat as the dawn.

    destroying your self is a far worse idea then returning to a classic-cata Cold War state and reviving and building strength.

    I don’t really see any point talking about ashenvale as we have no info on it’s state post BFA and people saying it was given up to the horde are just assuming that based on said lack of info.

    Unless I missed some short story or such which is possible I guess.
    “Building strength”? With whom? Anduin? He will never build any strength he is a moronic pacifist. Also even IF Alliance builds up its military then so will the horde simply making next war more devastating and since we know that Alliance is bound to take the first (and worst) hits in the game that just means more genocides, more pain and more unnecessary drama.

    Just finishing this pointless struggle now is better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    It was worth it so that they can start their own famines!
    USSR had famines before WW2 and Russian Empire had famines almost every next year but difference is that back in RE nobody just gave a fuck about some peasants starving to death and world wasnt yet “concerned” over anything or anybody outside their own borders.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    “Building strength”? With whom? Anduin? He will never build any strength he is a moronic pacifist. Also even IF Alliance builds up its military then so will the horde simply making next war more devastating and since we know that Alliance is bound to take the first (and worst) hits in the game that just means more genocides, more pain and more unnecessary drama.
    so anduin didn’t attack lorderon or go to war with the horde? He wasn’t in favour of the void elfs light forged or kul tirans joining the alliance? I know that fanfic is fun and all but can we stick to reality?

    Just finishing this pointless struggle now is better.
    mutually assured destruction is rarely the right choice and would be the only outcome assuming the horde didn’t win and of course ignoring the whole sylvanas shadowlands thing.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Oh, i misunderstood then. I meant Gilneans and Theramore.
    Gilneas is complicated, but it's clear the Alliance never abandoned it. The capital is reclaimed at least twice, once by the Alliance and later by a force of Gilneans, and the Alliance was engaged in naval warfare off its coast to keep the Forsaken from establishing another foothold. Battle for Azeroth implies that it has since been occupied by the Alliance, with the Horde's intent in Stromgarde being to use it as a launching point against Gilneas and at least two other mentions of attacks staged against the kingdom.

    Theramore Isle and Northwatch Hold were casualties of a war Varian declared, the latter having been reclaimed by the Alliance since. I'm not sure what more the Alliance should be expected to do for them.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    so anduin didn’t attack lorderon or go to war with the horde? He wasn’t in favour of the void elfs light forged or kul tirans joining the alliance? I know that fanfic is fun and all but can we stick to reality?

    mutually assured destruction is rarely the right choice and would be the only outcome assuming the horde didn’t win and of course ignoring the whole sylvanas shadowlands thing.
    I also didnt expected them to attack before Shadowlands. After that however Alliance would be smarter to attack the horde without warning, demolishing as much as possible.

  18. #218
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I also didnt expected them to attack before Shadowlands. After that however Alliance would be smarter to attack the horde without warning, demolishing as much as possible.
    Do you mean during the shadowlands? Or after a recovery period? Because during there’s a scourge invasion going on, after recovering from bfa and shadowlands then ya I’d say attacking the horde first would make sense.

    But continuing the bfa conflict would be a death sentence for the alliance with or without the shadowlands stuff.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I get that the BE's bargaining position in early TBC wasn't great and that joining forces with the Horde was more a matter of necessity than taste, and Lor'themar's behavior has broadly reflected this, but as shown by the Zandalari example they could have insisted on being allies of the Horde rather than enslaved to it, especially given that Thrall is hardly the most unreasonable of Orcs.
    That hardly the most unreasonable of Orcs didn't want them to join at all and had to be convinced by Sylvanas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Similarly, why did Sylvanas also throw away her sovereignty to some Orc after fighting so hard to earn her freedom? Something which would bite her in the ass hard in Cata. It just seems totally out of character for anyone who has a minimal amount of spine to look at the Blood Oath and not say "oh hell no, I am so not handing my people's sovereignty and lives to one person that can be replaced at the drop of a hat just to be part of your club".
    It's not like she ever did anything other than pay lip service to that. The Forsaken did what they pleased, they fought whom they pleased and they assisted whom they pleased. Even when Thrall put them under martial law in his sheer hypocrisy and Garrosh forbade them from using unaccepted strains of the Blight (or any strains of the Blight in Gilneas) the Forsaken used the Blight left and right and at most bullshitted the Orc overseers about how it's totally a weak strain and it's only to box the Worgen in. And when she got tired of the Kor'kron Sylvanas simply killed them.
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  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I get that the BE's bargaining position in early TBC wasn't great and that joining forces with the Horde was more a matter of necessity than taste, and Lor'themar's behavior has broadly reflected this, but as shown by the Zandalari example they could have insisted on being allies of the Horde rather than enslaved to it, especially given that Thrall is hardly the most unreasonable of Orcs. Similarly, why did Sylvanas also throw away her sovereignty to some Orc after fighting so hard to earn her freedom? Something which would bite her in the ass hard in Cata. It just seems totally out of character for anyone who has a minimal amount of spine to look at the Blood Oath and not say "oh hell no, I am so not handing my people's sovereignty and lives to one person that can be replaced at the drop of a hat just to be part of your club".

    I do agree that Anduin has a disproportionate influence, but that's because he's human, in and out of the story; in-story, the humans are the biggest kids in the Alliance bloc (yes, it makes no sense, but logistics in Warcraft never made sense at all) and out of story people like humans for some reason or another. Thus he gets to be important while the funny short dudes with beards blather on about woons and most NEs hug their trees, just like his father was super duper important despite showing up out of nowhere early Wrath and doing little but having some of his kingdom starve and partially trigger a war he was losing. That's just how it is, I don't like it but it's hardly the most egregious breach of realism amongst the factions.
    There's a very significant difference between the bargaining position of what was an empire that just a month before had one of the strongest naval powers and even in decline was able to push proxy wars throughout Cataclysm and Mists and that of the blood elves, which were a decaying state of virtual addicts reliant on Sylvanas to hold their border at all. This is notwithstanding that Sylvanas didn't give a flying shit how much autonomy she gave Talanji because she was a plant for a blue man from another dimension. She had to push them through over the edge to even get them into the Horde. Sylvanas herself in turn had to had any kind of recognition from a power not at the time hostile to the Alliance, plus (debatably) material support to not fall. If she hadn't joined the Horde, she'd be hostile to everyone and be bound to be wiped out. More than the simple narrative difference though and how weak the blood elf position is relative to their Alliance counterparts in the night elves and the dwarves is that the issue actually narratively exists. Rommath excoriates Bob for submitting to Sylvanas' demands to send troops, while later on Garrosh complains about having to keep them going, Bob ponders defection when the Horde no longer suits his interests and even Thrall made the very joining of the blood elves contingent on them proving they could carry their weight. Likewise the Forsaken's political dependance until Cataclysm where the tail begins to wag the dog.

    No such situation exists as regards the Alliance. The night elven and dwarf dynamics and the idea that the human king walked in and imposed an alliance command system on them after holding the king's daughter at sword point is never brought up. Whereas we know the reasoning for the contrived joining of the Forsaken to the Horde and the mindset of both the faction and the ones joining and we know much more about the blood elves' due to how heavily their narrative hinges upon this relationship, we still have no canonical explanation of the sequence of events that lead to the night elves joining the Alliance. The debate that @Raisei and @Eggroll had is, unlike the things just described, purely a fandom construct representing no positions that anyone in story has ever professed, not even a strawman. There is no equivalence between the Alliance and Horde in that regard at least not until BFA and the addition of the Highmountain and Nightborne who occupy similarly dubious ground but still stand above the Night Elf-Stormwind association by virtue of actually having an on-screen sequence of events leading to their joining rather than having their assimilation take place entirely over a menu screen.
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