Realistic portrayal of the Alliance within World of Warcraft

[rowaasr13]

Except thats not Taurajo. Thats from classic.

Name 1 (one) kid/teen killed by "those dwarves" "from classic". Or cite one "from classic" quest about Stonspire with word "genocide" in it. Spoiler: you can't, because you've pulled it from hell knows where.

All we have on that in game is a SINGLE sentence from a single Tauren and if that's your base for proving "Alliance is just as bad as Horde", considering piles and piles quests, entire storylines, scenarios, battlegrounds and movies of Horde's crimes in game, then it just shows how completely pathetic those attempts are.

- - - Updated - - -

it's not Taurajo; and what were those Dwarves even doing in Tauren ancestral lands and why are they demolishing and excavating it in the first place

Does name "Bael'dun" sounds "taurenly ancestral" to you?
Oh, sorry, I forgot. Any land touched by foot of any Horde race immediately becomes their ancestral and permanent property. As wise and "war-hating" Rexxar once said: "We shall purge those those KUL TIRANS from OUR lands!", while standing in Stormsong Valley, KUL TIRAS.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Does name "Bael'dun" sounds "taurenly ancestral" to you?
Oh, sorry, I forgot. Any land touched by foot of any Horde race immediately becomes their ancestral and permanent property.

So uh was North America not Native American land because it now has names like British Columbia? Because that’s pretty much your argument your making here the dwarfs renamed the land so it can’t belong to the cows. It’s not like kalimdor even had a dwarf population before hand or any thing.

[rowaasr13]

So uh was North America not Native American land because it now has names like British Columbia? Because that’s pretty much your argument your making here the dwarfs renamed the land so it can’t belong to the cows. It’s not like kalimdor even had a dwarf population before hand or any thing.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dig_site#Kalimdor. Hint: Bael Modan is a DWARF archaeology dig site.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dig_site#Kalimdor. Hint: Bael Modan is a DWARF archaeology dig site.

And British Columbia was/is a British settlement, you missed the point.

Before WC3-classic kalmindor had no dwarf population the land belonged to some one else before they sailed across the sea took it for there own and renamed it.

[Dire]

Anduin wouldn't of been able to inherit the High King title. Because that's a military rank, bestowed upon Varian by a count between the Alliance's leaders.
If this was actually real, the Dwarves would've either cut themselves off from the Alliance, the Night Elves wouldn't co-operate with the Humans anymore, Genn would focus on trying to reclaim Gilneas, the Gnomes would side with the Dwarves because Anduin being named High King would just reek of corruption. He's just a boy, not fit to rule the Alliance as a military leader.
Obviously the leaders of the races besides Humans would look very, very weak towards their people. They would think that their leaders are weak, that they don't care about them. That they bow down before the Humans. The races of non humans would revolt against their leaders.

The Humans, as a side note, are culturally taking over the Alliance as some sort of Imperialistic government. The state that every race is donned in Stormwind armor tells enough.

If we were really realistic, the Elves wouldn't allow themselves to get governed by a Human. But that ship has sailed.

Anyway, let's say Anduin wouldn't have been able to be High King. His kingdom, his lords would've already tried to usurp him by the point of the battle for Lordaeron, as he is weak military wise and weak physically wise (it's canon that Anduin SUCKS as a sword fighter, even his warrior of a father gave up on him). He doesn't interact with the Lords and nobels of Stormwind anymore, hell Varian didn't either after WotLK. It's like they all died or something.

Ah but, I forgot. This IS Blizzard. I forgot that, they don't do those storylines anymore. Nope, only Marvel-esque storytelling allowed here. Something something writers and twitter something. You know the deal.

Only fictional storylines of extraterrestial threats are allowed here. No infighting allowed, unless you faction is the Horde.

BUT WAIT:
Somehow, somehow, the Orcs were content with Sylvanas being named Warchief, despite the Orcs having almost no good standing with the Undead thanks to the Wrathgate, Garrosh Hellscream and his propaganda against them, aswell as their "dishonorable" tactics on the battlefield. Imagine Sylvanas being named Warchief in the heart of Orgrimmar and no Orcs within the city made up of mostly Orcs would dispute that claim of title and challenge her to a mak'gora.
Sylvanas has neither interacted much with the Horde apart from her involvement with the Lich King one dungeon and that one time she took the spotlight from Vol'jin, because the writer's were already setting her as Warchief before the dude even got stabbed from a demon. Besides those moments, all she interacted with was the throne in her Throne room and the Forsaken.

So I guess even both factions get screwed logically wise and this whole ordeal is just a fallacy of writer's just writing whatever the fuck they want instead of being consistent and truthful to the source, but who gives a SHIT when you can just write that everything's happy with eachother in this perfect world of Azeroth and you can just go back and retcon and change things to your liking because you're too uncreative to come up with anything new so your only solution is to change things that happened before your time because you think you somehow come off as creative in doing so but instead you just disrespect the whole franchise with your gibberish and bias towards your favorite characters.

SPOILER ALERT - Varian also sucked as a leader. Same with Grandpa Menethil... same with Thrall... Garrosh... etc etc....

The fact that you cannot see that they built in weakness in ALL leader shows you couldn't write shit better then any of them.

Trash post.. trash perspective.

[StationaryHawk]

Does name "Bael'dun" sounds "taurenly ancestral" to you?
Oh, sorry, I forgot. Any land touched by foot of any Horde race immediately becomes their ancestral and permanent property. As wise and "war-hating" Rexxar once said: "We shall purge those those KUL TIRANS from OUR lands!", while standing in Stormsong Valley, KUL TIRAS.

There's nothing to suggest that the dwarves traveled to Kalimdor at any point except in recent history. Bael Modan was built by the Explorer's League in order to excavate the surrounding area and, while there's essentially no canon sources (aside from a magazine) describing what they were looking for, it's implied to be of titan origin.

The Bael'dun dwarves never claim the land to be their ancestral home. Their motivation for driving the Stonespire tribe was for their own convenience.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dig_site#Kalimdor. Hint: Bael Modan is a DWARF archaeology dig site.

So is Thoradin's Wall, even though it was built centuries before the dwarves awoke.

[rowaasr13]

There's nothing to suggest that the dwarves traveled to Kalimdor at any point except in recent history.

There are Earthen in both War of the Ancients and in present time.

The Bael'dun dwarves never claim the land to be their ancestral home. Their motivation for driving the Stonespire tribe was for their own convenience.

It isn't really up to the Horde to discuss need to GTFO because of "driving somebody out from their ancestral lands". But I digress, I repeat initial question: where anywhere in game or official lore materials dwarves are known for "genociding" or being "known to slaughter kids/teens" (copypasted direct quote)?

So is Thoradin's Wall, even though it was built centuries before the dwarves awoke.

Exactly, centuries. As compared to dozens of centuries of history since then. I think dwarves had enough time over 1800 years since contact to leave something for archeologist to find even around Wall, considering that it borders Khaz Modan. But you seem to imply that somehow small settlement in Classic managed to create "archaeologic dig" in so little time just as well or what?

There's also little tidbit in history of Mulgore: "For the first time in hundreds of years, the tauren had a land to call their own." It is pretty clearly means that until them none of the land was theirs, so their claim to "ancestral land" isn't much better that dwarven. If anything, those are "centaur ancestral lands".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There are Earthen in both War of the Ancients and in present time.

Not only do earthen not equal dwarfs as not all of them turned into actual dwarfs but there are no earthen on kalimdor prior to them going there in BFA, Tons of other Titan creations but not a single earthen.

There's also little tidbit in history of Mulgore: "For the first time in hundreds of years, the tauren had a land to call their own." It is pretty clearly means that until them none of the land was theirs, so their claim to "ancestral land" isn't much better that dwarven. If anything, those are "centaur ancestral lands".

actually it implies they had lands and then lost/were driven off of them and weren’t able to resettle until Mulgore. Much like actual native Americans which they are obviously styled after.

[Myradin]

I'm pretty sure Thoradin's Wall being a dwarven archeology sight is a mistake. I'm guessing the dev thought Thoradin was a dwarf's name, despite being a humans.

Meanwhile Bael Modan had titan ruins in the RPG, that WoW kind of hinted at but never went anywhere with.

[StationaryHawk]

There are Earthen in both War of the Ancients and in present time.

Earthen are not dwarves. They were created solely to further the titans' designs and congregate almost exclusively in titan cities. If we're considering anything they touched to be dwarf land, they may as well be given them claim to the whole planet.

It isn't really up to the Horde to discuss need to GTFO because of "driving somebody out from their ancestral lands". But I digress, I repeat initial question: where anywhere in game or official lore materials dwarves are known for "genociding" or being "known to slaughter kids/teens" (copypasted direct quote)?

That's not my quote, and I'm not defending it.

Exactly, centuries. As compared to dozens of centuries of history since then. I think dwarves had enough time over 1800 years since contact to leave something for archeologist to find even around Wall, considering that it borders Khaz Modan. But you seem to imply that somehow small settlement in Classic managed to create "archaeologic dig" in so little time just as well or what?

The implication is that the artifacts are of titan origin.

There's also little tidbit in history of Mulgore: "For the first time in hundreds of years, the tauren had a land to call their own." It is pretty clearly means that until them none of the land was theirs, so their claim to "ancestral land" isn't much better that dwarven. If anything, those are "centaur ancestral lands".

"For the first time in hundreds of years" implies they had a home that was lost, which is exactly what happened.

I really can't see what you're trying to accomplish here. The game makes every effort to paint the dwarves of Bael Modan as the aggressors. Even the dwarves do not defend their actions, knowing full-well that their work would cause problems but choosing instead to drive the "bull-men" out because it was easier than negotiating. They're not the good guys in this scenario.

[Mehrunes]

Name 1 (one) kid/teen killed by "those dwarves" "from classic". Or cite one "from classic" quest about Stonspire with word "genocide" in it. Spoiler: you can't, because you've pulled it from hell knows where.

You're just grasping at straws here because you got called out on not even knowing what it is that you're replying to. Which, for the record, is quite weird because the post in question by @Ardenaso was their reply to your own post where the clear implication of what you asked them to do was for them to provide examples of Alliance actions other than Taurajo. So the way you immediately went on to talk about Taurajo in subsequent reply made no sense.

Either way, the reason I'm saying that you're grasping at straws here is that the reason why we don't know any of the Stonespires from the area that Dwarves occupied is that they were already killed by said Dwarves before the Vanilla quests even began. Which you'd know if you had any clue about the questline in question.

All we have on that in game is a SINGLE sentence from a single Tauren and if that's your base for proving "Alliance is just as bad as Horde", considering piles and piles quests, entire storylines, scenarios, battlegrounds and movies of Horde's crimes in game, then it just shows how completely pathetic those attempts are.

And this here is the part where you're putting words in other people's mouth in order to mask the stark weakness of your argumentation. Neither @Verdugo, nor @Ardenaso, or anyone else involved in this exchange said squat about wanting to prove that "Alliance is just as bad as the Horde". So your remarks about how it's other people's arguments (or your straw-men of them) are pathetic rings rather hollow here. Especially since no one here was making the argument that the Horde is some paragon of justice. Yet here you are, utterly incapable of admitting an act of Alliance decimating a Tauren tribe because they felt entitled to dig for Titan junk in their land was evil.

Does name "Bael'dun" sounds "taurenly ancestral" to you?

The entirety of Mulgore is ancestral Tauren land. The Dwarves are not native to Kalimdor. Mulgore being that to the Tauren is an explicit statement from World of Warcraft: Annual 2015 lore book. You have absolutely nothing here. By your "logic" here New Kargath is ancestral Orc land.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Any land touched by foot of any Horde race immediately becomes their ancestral and permanent property. As wise and "war-hating" Rexxar once said: "We shall purge those those KUL TIRANS from OUR lands!", while standing in Stormsong Valley, KUL TIRAS.

I just adore how you don't see the irony of your words here.

So uh was North America not Native American land because it now has names like British Columbia? Because that’s pretty much your argument your making here the dwarfs renamed the land so it can’t belong to the cows. It’s not like kalimdor even had a dwarf population before hand or any thing.

I don't know about British Columbia, but Ashenvale is definitely ancestral Orc territory. Look at dat Kargathia Keep. Night Elves brought the Horde upon themselves.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dig_site#Kalimdor. Hint: Bael Modan is a DWARF archaeology dig site.

Not only is Bael Modan not Bael'dun that you previously talked about, but you're just providing evidence on how you have no clue about the events pertaining to Bael Modan and the Stonespires. The journal of Prospector Khazgorm makes it clear the excavation site was recently opened in Vanilla. And that the Dwarves themselves considered the Tauren they forced away to be natives. Meanwhile all you've got is harping on a dig site, completely ignoring the fact it's been thoroughly established in the lore that Dwarves love to dig for Titan junk. Which is why one of the rare DWARF archaeology rewards is a Mechagnome pet.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't know about British Columbia, but Ashenvale is definitely ancestral Orc territory. Look at dat Kargathia Keep. Night Elves brought the Horde upon themselves

That's a very good point it has a orcish name which must mean it has always belonged to the orcs, the night elfs should really stay off orc land.

[Mehrunes]

There are Earthen in both War of the Ancients and in present time.

Jumbling in Earthen and Dwarves together only weakens your "DWARF archaeology site!!1!" "point". Because by doing so you admit (without actually realizing it in this case, obviously) that DWARF archaeology sites may be there because of their Titanforged heritage and not because actual Dwarves lived there.

It isn't really up to the Horde to discuss need to GTFO because of "driving somebody out from their ancestral lands". But I digress, I repeat initial question: where anywhere in game or official lore materials dwarves are known for "genociding" or being "known to slaughter kids/teens" (copypasted direct quote)?

And other than an inconvenience you your grand narrative here, why can't the Horde discuss that?

There's also little tidbit in history of Mulgore: "For the first time in hundreds of years, the tauren had a land to call their own." It is pretty clearly means that until them none of the land was theirs, so their claim to "ancestral land" isn't much better that dwarven. If anything, those are "centaur ancestral lands".

You're just cherry-picking here. Mulgore being ancestral Tauren land is also a little tidbit in history of Mulgore. That came from a much later source than the WoW Manual that you're bringing up here. So even if there was a conflict between the two (and there is not), that would only mean the 2015 book retconned the manual.

[Jastall]

There's a very significant difference between the bargaining position of what was an empire that just a month before had one of the strongest naval powers and even in decline was able to push proxy wars throughout Cataclysm and Mists and that of the blood elves, which were a decaying state of virtual addicts reliant on Sylvanas to hold their border at all. This is notwithstanding that Sylvanas didn't give a flying shit how much autonomy she gave Talanji because she was a plant for a blue man from another dimension. She had to push them through over the edge to even get them into the Horde. Sylvanas herself in turn had to had any kind of recognition from a power not at the time hostile to the Alliance, plus (debatably) material support to not fall. If she hadn't joined the Horde, she'd be hostile to everyone and be bound to be wiped out. More than the simple narrative difference though and how weak the blood elf position is relative to their Alliance counterparts in the night elves and the dwarves is that the issue actually narratively exists. Rommath excoriates Bob for submitting to Sylvanas' demands to send troops, while later on Garrosh complains about having to keep them going, Bob ponders defection when the Horde no longer suits his interests and even Thrall made the very joining of the blood elves contingent on them proving they could carry their weight. Likewise the Forsaken's political dependance until Cataclysm where the tail begins to wag the dog.

No such situation exists as regards the Alliance. The night elven and dwarf dynamics and the idea that the human king walked in and imposed an alliance command system on them after holding the king's daughter at sword point is never brought up. Whereas we know the reasoning for the contrived joining of the Forsaken to the Horde and the mindset of both the faction and the ones joining and we know much more about the blood elves' due to how heavily their narrative hinges upon this relationship, we still have no canonical explanation of the sequence of events that lead to the night elves joining the Alliance. The debate that @Raisei and @Eggroll had is, unlike the things just described, purely a fandom construct representing no positions that anyone in story has ever professed, not even a strawman. There is no equivalence between the Alliance and Horde in that regard at least not until BFA and the addition of the Highmountain and Nightborne who occupy similarly dubious ground but still stand above the Night Elf-Stormwind association by virtue of actually having an on-screen sequence of events leading to their joining rather than having their assimilation take place entirely over a menu screen.

Blizzard handwaved in the BE's reasons for joining the Horde after deciding to include them for gameplay purposes; they were brought in to give the Horde a pretty race, and then they conjured excuses for it such as the Dwarves and NEs wanting to kill them for pretty much no stated reason whatsoever in a series of events that is never referenced again outside of forum natter. Servitude to the Horde is brought up in-story, but hardly enough if you ask me, the BEs are historically proud and should be livid to suddenly be the willing slaves to a bunch of savages in tents and indentured to dead humans led by a dead elf, but at worst it seems a mild annoyance even after they solved their immediate addiction problems (thanks to an Alliance leader, natch). As Mehrunes said, Thrall barely wanted them in the Horde in the first place and so I don't see why couldn't have negotiated something more substantial after proving their worth.

You'll get absolutely no arguments from me that the Night Elves joining the Alliance makes no logical sense whatsoever. That they'd be more friendly to the Alliance than to the Horde would make some sense I suppose (even then, the non-NE race that have the most ties to are the Tauren), but outright joining it? Na, that was stupid, and just like the BEs and most Allied Races was done only because Blizzard needs to shoehorn playable races in team blue or red. As for the Dwarves, they've played second fiddle to the humans since WC2 so I guess that's just history repeating itself really, even dying for Garithos while he was being a racist prick towards them.

[Mehrunes]

Blizzard handwaved in the BE's reasons for joining the Horde after deciding to include them for gameplay purposes; they were brought in to give the Horde a pretty race, and then they conjured excuses for it such as the Dwarves and NEs wanting to kill them for pretty much no stated reason whatsoever in a series of events that is never referenced again outside of forum natter. Servitude to the Horde is brought up in-story, but hardly enough if you ask me, the BEs are historically proud and should be livid to suddenly be the willing slaves to a bunch of savages in tents and indentured to dead humans led by a dead elf, but at worst it seems a mild annoyance even after they solved their immediate addiction problems (thanks to an Alliance leader, natch). As Mehrunes said, Thrall barely wanted them in the Horde in the first place and so I don't see why couldn't have negotiated something more substantial after proving their worth.

Well, my point was more in the opposite direction. If Thrall was opposed to even making the Blood Elves his - borrowing your wording here - slaves, then I don't see why would he bother with them at all if they suddenly started negotiating a better deal. The Horde was in the stronger negotiating position here, yet Thrall barely let the Blood Elves in on conditions that were favorable to the Horde. Why would he be open to have them team up on less favorable conditions under those circumstances? Blood Elves on the other hand were at the time in shit so deep they were the literal embodiment of the phrase "beggars can't be choosers".

[DatToffer]

The Humans, as a side note, are culturally taking over the Alliance as some sort of Imperialistic government.

Always has been.
Funny how cultural imperialism and military interventionism are so much anchored into the US culture that they reproduce these process in their fictions. And yet the opposed faction is the most popular, riddle me this.

[Super Dickmann]

Blizzard handwaved in the BE's reasons for joining the Horde after deciding to include them for gameplay purposes; they were brought in to give the Horde a pretty race, and then they conjured excuses for it such as the Dwarves and NEs wanting to kill them for pretty much no stated reason whatsoever in a series of events that is never referenced again outside of forum natter. Servitude to the Horde is brought up in-story, but hardly enough if you ask me, the BEs are historically proud and should be livid to suddenly be the willing slaves to a bunch of savages in tents and indentured to dead humans led by a dead elf, but at worst it seems a mild annoyance even after they solved their immediate addiction problems (thanks to an Alliance leader, natch). As Mehrunes said, Thrall barely wanted them in the Horde in the first place and so I don't see why couldn't have negotiated something more substantial after proving their worth.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the Blood Elves being in the Horde wasn't chiefly a gameplay choice. Rather that their incongruity with the Horde was a major plot point and that the contrived dwarf thing is about as bad as it gets. The reason the blood elves gelling with the Alliance back then wouldn't work, beyond their salt over Garithos that belf posters are still going about is that at the time the Alliance, true to the focus of this thread actually had discernable values and things like being magic junkies, relying on demon magic to even sustain their society and keeping what's basically an angel locked up in their basement were very major points of issue that the Horde didn't have. The blood elves were dependant on the Horde, not the other way - to even call them a junior partner is a bit charitable, what they were were hangers on that Sylvanas has to drag over the finish line, from sustaining the Ghostlands, to lobbying Thrall so much he gets tired of her bitching about it. Immediately after an Alliance leader gifts them back the Sunwell Sylvanas shows up to tell them to actually contribute and Rommath and Aethas are both livid about it to Bob, later on Garrosh mentions how the orcs have to keep them going. The blood elves are not in a position to renegotiate or reconsider their place until Mists, where their whole story is based around Bob (and the writers) realizing they and the faction have nothing in common besides being red now that they've culturally reverted to high elves and Garrosh is actually making them pay their keep and trying to defect. This is a significant focus on the blood elf story that the writers were aware of and bring up again and again.

Besides, as @Mehrunes said - them saying those words doesn't mean shit if they don't intend to follow them and the expectations they set to the orcs not being what they actually intended is also acknowledged by the narrative. The elves joined an alliance of convenience to let them secure their lands enough to bail to Outland, only to realize their prince is a drug addict in league with Satan, enter a civil war and have the Sunwell restored by a separate power, then have all the debts they incurred catch up to them with first Sylvanas, then Garrosh telling them it's time to pay up. It's a coherent narrative that only fails when after Mists the game decides that the blood elves actually totally fit with the Horde and deeply care about the Warchief and honor despite being fairweather friends that tried to bail.

You'll get absolutely no arguments from me that the Night Elves joining the Alliance makes no logical sense whatsoever. That they'd be more friendly to the Alliance than to the Horde would make some sense I suppose (even then, the non-NE race that have the most ties to are the Tauren), but outright joining it? Na, that was stupid, and just like the BEs and most Allied Races was done only because Blizzard needs to shoehorn playable races in team blue or red. As for the Dwarves, they've played second fiddle to the humans since WC2 so I guess that's just history repeating itself really, even dying for Garithos while he was being a racist prick towards them.

I don't mind Khaz Modan being allied with Stormwind, that's basic continuity. It's that in Vanilla Khaz Modan is more of a senior partner with Magni being a much more powerful ruler than what's up in Stormwind, but after he goes and Varian implements the council of three hammers by holding Moira at sword point the story does nothing with this. Or indeed with dwarves in general. If I got a shot at the writer's room, bringing in dwarf dominance over the Alliance would be my first order of business. But like with other IPs, Dragon Age being one of the other very galling offenders, Blizzard doesn't care about dwarves. Maybe it's because they're short and not sexy.

The Night Elf thing I feel bad even repeating given how dead that horse is. It goes well beyond sympathies or which faction fit more - at the end of WC3 the Night Elves have met 0 people from Stormwind. Not a fucking one. They are more powerful than the entire Kalimdor Horde combined, they don't need allies especially not ones from a continent away who, when push does come to shove, can't actually help due to reasons of basic logistics. Incidentally and a bit off-topic, but to answer a previous sentiment the night elf situation makes magnitudes more sense than the WC3 rendition where they're cheery buddies. These are the descendants of the same people who refused to stop arcane use even when it brought up the Legion, and not only did the Legion return through a summoner raised by their pool of arcane power, but are now using fel magic. Hostility and surveillance is rational and in-character.

[Jastall]

Well, my point was more in the opposite direction. If Thrall was opposed to even making the Blood Elves his - borrowing your wording here - slaves, then I don't see why would he bother with them at all if they suddenly started negotiating a better deal. The Horde was in the stronger negotiating position here, yet Thrall barely let the Blood Elves in on conditions that were favorable to the Horde. Why would he be open to have them team up on less favorable conditions under those circumstances? Blood Elves on the other hand were at the time in shit so deep they were the literal embodiment of the phrase "beggars can't be choosers".

I got that it wasn't what you meant, but I think it can interpreted both ways- if Thrall doesn't want them in, they could at least try to negotiate something else than integration. The BEs need a save border, Horde needs, I dunno, magical expertise and information on Outland, deal's a deal, I'm only using an example but it seems the entire thing escalated to making themselves subservient to the Horde, they were in dire straits but it still seems fast and, as I said, was driven by gameplay more than anything else. Doesn't help that most of the negotiations happen offscreen and all the player does is deliver letters, while we have a much fuller picture in the case of the Zandalari.

Plus, I dunno why slaves is put in quotation- if you take the Blood Oath literally, you're literally the Warchief's slave, he can do with you as he wishes and any hint of disobedience can legally mean death. That people like Sylvanas got away with it due to Thrall mostly not giving a shit/being wily/the story allowing it like in the case of Gilneas doesn't negate such a thing.

[StationaryHawk]

I got that it wasn't what you meant, but I think it can interpreted both ways- if Thrall doesn't want them in, they could at least try to negotiate something else than integration. The BEs need a save border, Horde needs, I dunno, magical expertise and information on Outland, deal's a deal, I'm only using an example but it seems the entire thing escalated to making themselves subservient to the Horde, they were in dire straits but it still seems fast and, as I said, was driven by gameplay more than anything else. Doesn't help that most of the negotiations happen offscreen and all the player does is deliver letters, while we have a much fuller picture in the case of the Zandalari.

Plus, I dunno why slaves is put in quotation- if you take the Blood Oath literally, you're literally the Warchief's slave, he can do with you as you wish and any hint of disobedience can legally mean death. That people like Sylvanas got away with it due to Thrall mostly not giving a shit/being wily/the story allowing it like in the case of Gilneas doesn't negate such a thing.

What's odd is that, outside of recruiting the taunka, the Blood Oath is never again utilized or even mentioned. Every people to become members of the Horde are inducted with a few words and a nod from the Warchief (or council member, as with the vulpera).

I understand its absence does not mean it has become non-canon, but you'd think with all the attention put on allied races we'd have had someone speak the words again.

[Ardenaso]

Does name "Bael'dun" sounds "taurenly ancestral" to you?.

Bael'dun became Bael'dun after the Dwarves drove out the Stonespire tribe and slaughtered them, and desecrated their ancestral lands.

Quel'thalas doesn't sound Amani-ish but that doesn't change the fact that it was once Amani holy lands