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  1. #441
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    So the personal experinces of my family members don't count.
    I have 3 times as many family members that have the opposite experience. Unless you can triple your family members experience. It’s canceled out by the overwhelming number of my family members experience.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Ironic. What you just said is "Unions are awesome and any union member saying they are bad is lying". I can apply everything you said about me back on to you. You reject the evdience of your eyes and ears and only accept what your Party tells you. Amazing how unaware of that you are.
    There is not a single thing you can say that'll convince anyone that a good union is a bad thing. Not a single thing. Convince me otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I have 3 times as many family members that have the opposite experience. Unless you can triple your family members experience. It’s canceled out by the overwhelming number of my family members experience.
    This a bit lower than you usually happen to hang around... you sure you wanna stay at his level? Looks uncomfortable to me...
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  3. #443
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    This a bit lower than you usually happen to hang around... you sure you wanna stay at his level? Looks uncomfortable to me...
    Just got a call... that number is now quintuple...

    Just leading the horse to water...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  4. #444
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    There is not a single thing you can say that'll convince anyone that a good union is a bad thing. Not a single thing. Convince me otherwise.

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    This a bit lower than you usually happen to hang around... you sure you wanna stay at his level? Looks uncomfortable to me...
    What defines a good union vs a bad one?
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
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  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    The trick to unionising is... it needs to be corporate-wide at minimum, industry-wide at best. Not per location. That's why these guys fail. If you do it per plant, all you do is give the company an incentive to just close that plant. That's dumb shit. You need to get ALL Amazon workers in on this, then they can actually shut the company down if demands are not met. See how the greedy fucks in upper management deal with that. There's not enough Mexicans in the US to just replace ALL Amazon workers.
    Yet you must start somewhere... and America has weak union laws... filibuster historically was used primarily to block civil rights and secondly to block labour advancements.
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  6. #446
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    What defines a good union vs a bad one?
    Malfeasance...

    Edit: Shit... you don’t know what random means... doing bad things... not good things... no no thing is bad...
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-04-10 at 12:31 AM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  7. #447
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Malfeasance...

    Edit: Shit... you don’t know what random means... doing bad things... not good things... uhm... no no thing is bad...
    So, the definition of a good union is in the eye of the beholder. That being the case, I would agree that no one would object to a good union, but few would agree on what makes one.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
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  8. #448
    A union lost another vote to unionize, eh?

    Better luck next time. Enjoy Democracy in action.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  9. #449
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    So, the definition of a good union is in the eye of the beholder. That being the case, I would agree that no one would object to a good union, but few would agree on what makes one.
    Jusus fucking Christ... a Union that tells you goals, but then does the contradicting... is bad. A Union that breaks the law... is bad. A Union that just doesn’t do anything... is bad.

    If you can’t think of an objective measure for a governing body to be... uhm... bad... I have nothing for you... Paris Hilton 2024... Make America Hot Again...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  10. #450
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Jusus fucking Christ... a Union that tells you goals, but then does the contradicting... is bad. A Union that breaks the law... is bad. A Union that just doesn’t do anything... is bad.

    If you can’t think of an objective measure for a governing body to be... uhm... bad... I have nothing for you... Paris Hilton 2024... Make America Hot Again...
    Defining anything objectively is only possible when there is no subjectivity in the equation. If I want my union to do any of they above and they do, then I may consider them a good union, no?
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
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  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    If you can’t think of an objective measure for a governing body to be... uhm... bad... I have nothing for you... Paris Hilton 2024... Make America Hot Again...
    Paris Hilton? Is there going to be a primary? I'm looking for options here because she just doesn't do it for me... She's not even spank material...

  12. #452
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Defining anything objectively is only possible when there is no subjectivity in the equation. If I want my union to do any of they above and they do, then I may consider them a good union, no?
    Yeah, you can say 5+5=20... it doesn’t change that they are objectively bad things... it just means I need to use simpler language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Paris Hilton? Is there going to be a primary? I'm looking for options here because she just doesn't do it for me... She's not even spank material...
    I’ve been saying it for 5 years and honestly... I don’t remember the justification...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  13. #453
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yeah, you can say 5+5=20... it doesn’t change that they are objectively bad things... it just means I need to use simpler language.



    I’ve been saying it for 5 years and honestly... I don’t remember the justification...
    So you cannot see a time when a union breaking the law is not something you would disagree with?
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
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  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    What defines a good union vs a bad one?
    So, a union that can actually enforce demands is a good one. The mafia type of union? Not a good one. A union of 3 million members spanning the entire industry? Good. A union of 20 people in the cantina, not so good.

    Just to give you an idea what I'm talking about: Ver.di the biggest German union taking care of the service industry sector, they are rumored to have enough cash stashed away to be able to feed their entire workforce for 1.5 years in a general strike. Like all of the members. They could legit shut Germany down for 1.5 years completely. That's a good union.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Yet you must start somewhere... and America has weak union laws... filibuster historically was used primarily to block civil rights and secondly to block labour advancements.
    Yeah, nobody will ever give people labor rights out of the goodness of their hearts. The reason why Europe has better union laws is because workers enforced that.
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  15. #455
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So, a union that can actually enforce demands is a good one. The mafia type of union? Not a good one. A union of 3 million members spanning the entire industry? Good. A union of 20 people in the cantina, not so good.

    Just to give you an idea what I'm talking about: Ver.di the biggest German union taking care of the service industry sector, they are rumored to have enough cash stashed away to be able to feed their entire workforce for 1.5 years in a general strike. Like all of the members. They could legit shut Germany down for 1.5 years completely. That's a good union.

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    Yeah, nobody will ever give people labor rights out of the goodness of their hearts. The reason why Europe has better union laws is because workers enforced that.
    So, no objective definition of good v bad.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Or...decades of extreme anti-union propaganda that's mislead millions about what unions are, what they're for, their historical importance etc. Plus a heavy handed campaign by Amazon, who have apparently spent quite a tidy sum to actively combat any unionization efforts, including slandering union organizers.
    Well, you just spent almost 10 pages arguing with one of those workers who are against unions. It seems you also believe that they hold some responsibility in being educated or in making the right choices then.

    I'm pro-union by the way, but I'm not at all surprised to see that a majority of workers are happy and grateful for the way their working conditions are already (even if they are wrong).
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  17. #457
    What is the point of threatening to unionize if there are quadruple the work force already looking to undercut your wage waiting?

    I can't imagine amazon has many skilled workers.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    So, no objective definition of good v bad.
    Are you looking for excuses to dismiss the entire concept? Because that's a pretty dumb argument you have right there. The quality of a union is determined by the member density of the union. The German judiciary considers a union "adequately strong" if it can impose actions during labor disputes. With actions we're talking strikes, temporary shut downs of production plants, those sort of things.

    Other than that, I'm not going to do the English teacher thing. Look up good and bad in your dictionary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    What is the point of threatening to unionize if there are quadruple the work force already looking to undercut your wage waiting?

    I can't imagine amazon has many skilled workers.
    The trick is that you keep unionising, anyone who joins the Amazon force is offered membership in that union, at some point Amazon will have to talk to the union and the longer Amazon drags it out, the more powerful that union gets.

    And yes, Amazon would have to seriously suffer. The point is not to get at Amazon, the point is to show the entire industry what would happen if you fuck with the union.

    Now, and this is why it doesn't work in the US, at this point typically corrupt fucks and/or the Mafia step in and say "Wow, extortion at an industrial level, awesome, I'm going to take over right here... and now you pay me. Thank you!" and Americans give up on the concept.
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  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    I don't understand cause these huge companies could always contract with big chains to allow access to their bathrooms for a monthly fee. Like Exxon gas stations for example. They have to be getting gas from somewhere.

    Seems like they could find an easy solution that will cost some bucks but it would be a drop in the bucket.
    Missing the point. It is more convenient to just piss in a bottle than go out of your way, in many cases, or take the time to stop. That is why people do it. Not becasue they are forced to. Having a contract with a chain of gas stations won't change that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    I never said bad stuff doesn't happen either hence why I said all "companies have warts".

    Nobody at Amazon was forced to use piss bottles, you are right. The drivers simply made due when there wasn't a restroom available on their route. That isn't exploiting the worker. That is bad logistics planning which they are rectifying. Let's not forget the one guy the far left media latched onto who claimed he was fired for his coronavirus walkout only to find out he was legit fired for violating social distancing by going into work despite having been told to stay home after testing positive and getting others sick.

    I will say that it is a product of bad mangers and attributing it to a specific part of the country is irresponsible broad brushing because you will likely find examples everywhere. The comnpany I work for has stores, such as the one I work for, who are considered to be really good to work at and others who all you hear about is complaints. People want to blame the company when it is the bad managers who are responsible for it and wonder of all wonders when those managers are weeded out that those stores become better places to work.

    I agree with you 100%. But media doesn't care about accuracy and the facts you present when it gets in he way of their agenda and neither does the far left echo chamber here.

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    Don't believe the union propaganda. And by the way, you cannot get fired for voting to unionize. That is illegal.
    The one picker story may have merit about being forced.They were basically told to hold it in or be fired for missing their rate. However I'd bet this is a their direct manager issue not a cultural issue. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the GM of that location found out an employee was told to do something like that, that manager would be fired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    A union lost another vote to unionize, eh?

    Better luck next time. Enjoy Democracy in action.
    In Alabama, where the employer used daily propaganda and threatening actions to make sure it didn't succeed. Shocker.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Are you looking for excuses to dismiss the entire concept? Because that's a pretty dumb argument you have right there. The quality of a union is determined by the member density of the union. The German judiciary considers a union "adequately strong" if it can impose actions during labor disputes. With actions we're talking strikes, temporary shut downs of production plants, those sort of things.

    Other than that, I'm not going to do the English teacher thing. Look up good and bad in your dictionary.

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    The trick is that you keep unionising, anyone who joins the Amazon force is offered membership in that union, at some point Amazon will have to talk to the union and the longer Amazon drags it out, the more powerful that union gets.

    And yes, Amazon would have to seriously suffer. The point is not to get at Amazon, the point is to show the entire industry what would happen if you fuck with the union.

    Now, and this is why it doesn't work in the US, at this point typically corrupt fucks and/or the Mafia step in and say "Wow, extortion at an industrial level, awesome, I'm going to take over right here... and now you pay me. Thank you!" and Americans give up on the concept.
    I just don't see that as possible over the past few decades the states have absolutely flooded the unskilled labor pool. I can't see how any union without skilled labor can servive. It's why I expect the minimum wage to decrease not increase in time.

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