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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I just don't see that as possible over the past few decades the states have absolutely flooded the unskilled labor pool. I can't see how any union without skilled labor can servive. It's why I expect the minimum wage to decrease not increase in time.
    A union isn't predicated on having skilled labourers. There are plenty of unions that protect fields that have high percentages of unskilled labourers all over the place.
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  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    What is the point of threatening to unionize if there are quadruple the work force already looking to undercut your wage waiting?
    Welcome to one of the literal points of unions existing, my bro.

  3. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I just don't see that as possible over the past few decades the states have absolutely flooded the unskilled labor pool. I can't see how any union without skilled labor can servive. It's why I expect the minimum wage to decrease not increase in time.
    Why can't a union be "unskilled"? Janitorial and Cleaning services are unionized in Sweden.
    As is McDonalds.
    Last edited by Muzjhath; 2021-04-10 at 05:40 PM.
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  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I just don't see that as possible over the past few decades the states have absolutely flooded the unskilled labor pool. I can't see how any union without skilled labor can servive. It's why I expect the minimum wage to decrease not increase in time.
    I never said it was easy to put into practice. But it needs to be done if the people in the US want to keep even the slightest resemblance of control. Let's be honest, the way things are going the US mega corps are absolutely happy to exploit the fuck out of the workers. That Amazon bottle thing? The only reason, the ONLY reason someone in the PR department thought it necessary to even comment on that is the public shitstorm. And the practical result? A lot of meetings in which it will be decided that the drivers have to get rid of their bottles before they get into the station. Breaks? Fuck no, that's not what Amazon understood this shitstorm to be about. Their policy is no bottles back into the station (if anyone asks, that's so they can say they never knew about problems).

    It's funny, but you can play this game for yourself.

    "Hey Amazon, we notice people are peeing in bottles and you must have known because those bottles showed up in the station."

    Everyone's understanding: Oh, fuck, their drivers don't even have the time to find a restroom and go for a loo? Amazon you should change that!
    What Amazon understands: Ok, so if we don't see those bottles, we officially don't know what they do during their drive so that'll solve the liability problem for us!

    Result: Not only don't the drivers not have time to find a loo, now they have to spend the time they don't have to find a place to get rid of any (!) beverage they may have in their car, possibly there might be a ban on bottles altogether.

    Modern slavery, that's what this is. The only reason why you can't call this actual slavery is because everyone has the ability to quit the job. Because that is totally not exploitation. It's all voluntary, innit? Fuck that. Fuck the corps. Get unionised, fuck those corps up. If they go bust, so fucking be it. There will be other companies swarming the market place in no time. There's dozens of companies that want to be the next Amazon.

    And that is why unions exist. It doesn't require you to be a skilled worker. It just requires you to be a worker at a place that is unionised. The more the merrier. When you can shut down a plant by telling your workers not to show up for work, that's hurting companies. Just the threat of that is going to get any company's executive board to the negotiating table. And that is the place where you don't get PR bullshit fed, that's where union contracts are signed that are legally binding for courts to use to slap hefty contract fines on the company and have damages be paid to workers. That's how you do it. The problem in the US is that the labor protection is so eroded and disassembled, it's hard to get the initial push without Amazon literally firing you instantly they hear you're thinking about a union. The only solution to this is to somehow form it fast, across the entire company, including all plants... and then insantly calling a general strike just to make a point, get Amazon to the table and have them agree to labor protection policies, recognise the union and the right to be in the union, give people protection from being fired if they join the union etc.

    And the next step is to force politics into fixing the bullshit labor protection the US has. That's what you use general strikes for. Threaten to strike everything, every industry. Start by disrupting one industry just for one day, to give the powers that be a taste of what it means if everything is striked. That'll get things going.

    Sounds crazy? France does this sort of thing on a regular basis, so does Italy. Germany does this every time the union contract is about to run out and renegotiated for the next four years or so. These framework union contracts are what are largely responsible for wages to keep up with inflation across entire industries.
    Last edited by Slant; 2021-04-10 at 07:30 PM.
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  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Why can't a union be "unskilled"? Janitorial and Cleaning services are unionized in Sweden.
    As is McDonalds.
    Comes down to how replaceable you are. If its beyond easy to hire someone else you don't have much power.

  6. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Comes down to how replaceable you are. If its beyond easy to hire someone else you don't have much power.
    Not if everyone is in the Union, and anyone you replace will more than likely also be in the union.
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  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Not if everyone is in the Union, and anyone you replace will more than likely also be in the union.
    I don't think the unemployed are going to be a part of a union...for this idea to work the working poor would need to be less...well poor.

  8. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Not if everyone is in the Union, and anyone you replace will more than likely also be in the union.
    That's what the Pinkerton thugs are for.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    The one picker story may have merit about being forced.They were basically told to hold it in or be fired for missing their rate. However I'd bet this is a their direct manager issue not a cultural issue. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the GM of that location found out an employee was told to do something like that, that manager would be fired.
    Well, yeah. If it were a company policy, there would have been far more than one story out there. But that doesn't matter to the far left media and the far left echo chamber here. They spin everything to fit their agenda.




    In Alabama, where the employer used daily propaganda and threatening actions to make sure it didn't succeed. Shocker.
    Proof of the threatening actions happening please. Unsubstantiated claims by the union does not equal proof. And don't act like the Unions didn't use propaganda too. LOL at these attempts to make it seem like the Unions are innocent angels here that did nothing to try to influence things.

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I don't think the unemployed are going to be a part of a union...for this idea to work the working poor would need to be less...well poor.
    True, but then they get employed, and join the union.
    Which is what I implied was happening.

    Sweden has no minimum wage law legislation. Because we've got unions.
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  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I never said it was easy to put into practice. But it needs to be done if the people in the US want to keep even the slightest resemblance of control. Let's be honest, the way things are going the US mega corps are absolutely happy to exploit the fuck out of the workers. That Amazon bottle thing? The only reason, the ONLY reason someone in the PR department thought it necessary to even comment on that is the public shitstorm. And the practical result? A lot of meetings in which it will be decided that the drivers have to get rid of their bottles before they get into the station. Breaks? Fuck no, that's not what Amazon understood this shitstorm to be about. Their policy is no bottles back into the station (if anyone asks, that's so they can say they never knew about problems).
    Repeating BS spin doesn't make it fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    But if everybody is making "slave wages", then why are the majority "fat cats"?
    The fat cats are thsose that have spouses with large incomes, so it doesn't matter to them what their wages are.

    Here what this situation sounds like. Your "family members" wanted more than the majority wanted, or than the union could bargain for, and got pissed that their personal wants were not met. What you, and your "family members", clearly don't understand is that unions try to bargain with the following mindset.
    A. What do the majority of our members want?
    B. What do we have the best chance of getting for our members?
    C. What will benefit the majority of our members?

    Based on your own statements, the union got pensions and benefits for their members, the majority were happy with this result, and the majority did not push for more. Is a union supposed to put in the resources and effort pushing for something that the minority of their members want?
    YES. Union are supposed to be looking out for ALL workers not just the majority. They absolutely could bargain for more awages, but refused to because the majority made it so they could refuse to.

    It is absolutely hilarious that you scream about corporations paying slave wages and then puff up unions to get them better wages then turn right around and say it is OK for Unions to screw workers over on wages. What a massive hypocrite you are. I guess as long as you get what you want screw everyone else huh?

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    YES. Union are supposed to be looking out for ALL workers not just the majority.
    Again, you're exhibiting that you literally haven't the foggiest clue how unions work.

    It's always been about representing the majority within the union, because you're never going to get a uniform opinion from every union member. They're not a hive-mind.

    They protect all their member. But when it comes time to negotiation and the members have to choose to prioritize pay increases or health coverage, for example, the negotiators are going to push for what the majority of the union wants more aggressively.

    Every post of yours is further evidence that you haven't the foggiest clue about the history or purpose of unions.

  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Are you looking for excuses to dismiss the entire concept? Because that's a pretty dumb argument you have right there. The quality of a union is determined by the member density of the union. The German judiciary considers a union "adequately strong" if it can impose actions during labor disputes. With actions we're talking strikes, temporary shut downs of production plants, those sort of things.

    Other than that, I'm not going to do the English teacher thing. Look up good and bad in your dictionary.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The trick is that you keep unionising, anyone who joins the Amazon force is offered membership in that union, at some point Amazon will have to talk to the union and the longer Amazon drags it out, the more powerful that union gets.

    And yes, Amazon would have to seriously suffer. The point is not to get at Amazon, the point is to show the entire industry what would happen if you fuck with the union.

    Now, and this is why it doesn't work in the US, at this point typically corrupt fucks and/or the Mafia step in and say "Wow, extortion at an industrial level, awesome, I'm going to take over right here... and now you pay me. Thank you!" and Americans give up on the concept.
    "Good" and "bad" are subjective. Also, strength (especially in numbers) is not the same as quality. A strong union does not mean it is a quality union.

    I'm glad to see you understand that unions are industrial level extortion.
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  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I'm glad to see you understand that unions are industrial level extortion.
    Give up all the employment protections and benefits union members fought and died for, then. Seriously. No overtime, no weekends, no 8 hour days, no paid leave. Give it all up since I guess those all came from industrial level extortion.

  15. #475
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Again, you're exhibiting that you literally haven't the foggiest clue how unions work.

    It's always been about representing the majority within the union, because you're never going to get a uniform opinion from every union member. They're not a hive-mind.

    They protect all their member. But when it comes time to negotiation and the members have to choose to prioritize pay increases or health coverage, for example, the negotiators are going to push for what the majority of the union wants more aggressively.

    Every post of yours is further evidence that you haven't the foggiest clue about the history or purpose of unions.
    The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)
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  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)
    That's not remotely true at all. The point of unions is to put employees on more equal footing in negotiation for pay, benefits, and protections with their employer, and acts as a check to ensure that its members are not being exploited by the employer.

    They don't all operate this way in practice, and there are plenty of shitty unions out there. Plus you have "unions" in China which are pretty much the polar opposite of what we traditionally understand in the west.

    But this isn't remotely true in the slightest, especially when it comes to unionization in skilled trades, for example.

  17. #477
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Give up all the employment protections and benefits union members fought and died for, then. Seriously. No overtime, no weekends, no 8 hour days, no paid leave. Give it all up since I guess those all came from industrial level extortion.
    I have paid leave, but none of the others, but my leave was negotiated at hiring. And yes I work full time.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
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  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I have paid leave, but none of the others, but my leave was negotiated at hiring. And yes I work full time.
    What country is this where there's no standard 8 hour workday or weekends? Or are you salaried and exempt or something?

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Well, yeah. If it were a company policy, there would have been far more than one story out there. But that doesn't matter to the far left media and the far left echo chamber here. They spin everything to fit their agenda.




    Proof of the threatening actions happening please. Unsubstantiated claims by the union does not equal proof. And don't act like the Unions didn't use propaganda too. LOL at these attempts to make it seem like the Unions are innocent angels here that did nothing to try to influence things.
    Anti union posters placed in break rooms. Happened, not union propaganda. A dropbox infront of the building where cameras would show management who was mailing votes. This is fact and this is a clear threatening move. Considering they fire people who even mention unions, requiring you to vote under management's eye.

    So look, these are all out there and reported on, even leaked emails showing Amazon trying and successfully getting the USPS to install a box where they legally were ot allowed to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)
    Spoken like someone who has no clue what unions do. Even so, the value of labor is so undervalued these days, if all non skilled labor stopped working for a day Amazon would be toast. Seems like they are worth more than what you may think.

  20. #480
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's not remotely true at all. The point of unions is to put employees on more equal footing in negotiation for pay, benefits, and protections with their employer, and acts as a check to ensure that its members are not being exploited by the employer.

    They don't all operate this way in practice, and there are plenty of shitty unions out there. Plus you have "unions" in China which are pretty much the polar opposite of what we traditionally understand in the west.

    But this isn't remotely true in the slightest, especially when it comes to unionization in skilled trades, for example.
    As I said, they make employees more valuable than the market dictates. You can coach it in more flattering terms, but at the end of the day, that is their function.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What country is this where there's no standard 8 hour workday or weekends? Or are you salaried and exempt or something?
    Exempt salaried and very well compensated for it. No union required.
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