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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    As I said, they make employees more valuable than the market dictates.
    "The market" doesn't dictate anything. The company chooses what they want to pay them, and the companies interest is in keeping wages as low as possible to limit expenses.

    Hence why unions exist to push back against that and push for more fair wages and benefits for their members. Labor's value isn't purely determined by companies, nor should it be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    You can coach it in more flattering terms, but at the end of the day, that is their function.
    You're arguing for a world where employees have no recourse to exploitation but to beg companies to maybe pay them more individually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Exempt salaried and very well compensated for it. No union required.
    Congrats! I'm salary-exempted too, though thankfully work for a company that respects my personal life and rarely requires me to do overtime. Still doesn't detract from the importance of unions for the majority of workers who are not salary-exempt.

  2. #482
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    Anti union posters placed in break rooms. Happened, not union propaganda. A dropbox infront of the building where cameras would show management who was mailing votes. This is fact and this is a clear threatening move. Considering they fire people who even mention unions, requiring you to vote under management's eye.

    So look, these are all out there and reported on, even leaked emails showing Amazon trying and successfully getting the USPS to install a box where they legally were ot allowed to.

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    Spoken like someone who has no clue what unions do. Even so, the value of labor is so undervalued these days, if all non skilled labor stopped working for a day Amazon would be toast. Seems like they are worth more than what you may think.
    Unskilled labor has a value cap at the cost of automation to replace it, and a market cap at the cost of replacing a person with another unskilled person.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    Anti union posters placed in break rooms. Happened, not union propaganda. A dropbox infront of the building where cameras would show management who was mailing votes. This is fact and this is a clear threatening move. Considering they fire people who even mention unions, requiring you to vote under management's eye.

    So look, these are all out there and reported on, even leaked emails showing Amazon trying and successfully getting the USPS to install a box where they legally were ot allowed to.
    Your spin is as hilariously bad as the pro-union radicals here.
    1. A poster? So? Unions handed out their own propaganda to all employees. Don't see you out raged about that. Oh I forgot, It's perfectly OK for Un
    ions to do it, but the company is not allowed to inform it's employees about unions. Your hypocrisy is growing.

    2. Show me proof that Amazon fired anyone for mentioning unions. So, not only are you a hypocrite, you are a liar too.

    3. LOL calling far left media who spin their reporting to fit their pro-union bias is not reporting.

    4.Everyone votes. That camera also can't show you how they voted. That camera is also a security camera and no matter where the mailbox is put, a security camera will be on it. If they are not allowed to install a box, then the USPS should be reported. Since they haven't been, it;s the Unions once again lying out their rears. That argument is beyond ridiculous.

    Your post is notiing but parroting the propaganda used by the media arm of the unions. Also funny how you completely spun away from unions screwing their members over on wages and refusing to condemn them for it. Your silence and hypocrisy is deafening.

  4. #484
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    "The market" doesn't dictate anything. The company chooses what they want to pay them, and the companies interest is in keeping wages as low as possible to limit expenses.

    Hence why unions exist to push back against that and push for more fair wages and benefits for their members. Labor's value isn't purely determined by companies, nor should it be.



    You're arguing for a world where employees have no recourse to exploitation but to beg companies to maybe pay them more individually.

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    Congrats! I'm salary-exempted too, though thankfully work for a company that respects my personal life and rarely requires me to do overtime. Still doesn't detract from the importance of unions for the majority of workers who are not salary-exempt.
    A company chooses what to pay based on what it takes to attract the skill and employment level needed to perform its work. My company pays over minimum wage to get Neanderthal level competence because the job is a bit hazardous and unpleasant.

    I wanted a better salary and benefits package, so I increased my skills in an in demand vocation. Much preferable to needing a union.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  5. #485
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    A company chooses what to pay based on what it takes to attract the skill and employment level needed to perform its work. My company pays over minimum wage to get Neanderthal level competence because the job is a bit hazardous and unpleasant.

    I wanted a better salary and benefits package, so I increased my skills in an in demand vocation. Much preferable to needing a union.
    See? It’s so easy guys.

    Just place your face directly into your own ass and sniff the farts.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    A company chooses what to pay .
    As little as possible in order to extract maximum value. What determines that is essentially a power dynamic, a negotiation between employer and employee where the degree of power one has over the other is leveraged. Unionized work environments offer more leverage for labor in those negotiations because of strength from collective bargaining. Employers tend to have an advantage in most negotiations as a result of structural forces within the society and also well the fact that people need to eat. Your "skill" is a factor in that negotiations as well (it provides you leverage) but a small part. You could be the most skilled underwater welder in the universe but if the market was flooded with underwater welders then the strength of your bargaining position is weaker. If you were starving and about to lose your home the strength of your bargaining position would be weaker regardless of any formal education or ability etc etc
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-04-10 at 09:51 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #487
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    See? It’s so easy guys.

    Just place your face directly into your own ass and sniff the farts.
    I didn't say it was easy, I said it was preferable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As little as possible in order to extract maximum value. What determines that is essentially a power dynamic, a negotiation between employer and employee where the degree of power one has over the other is leveraged. Unionized work environments offer more leverage for labor in those negotiations because of strength from collective bargaining. Employers tend to have an advantage in most negotiations as a result of structural forces within the society and also well the fact that people need to eat. Your "skill" is a factor in that negotiations as well (it provides you leverage) but a small part. You could be the most skilled underwater welder in the universe but if the market was flooded with underwater welders then the strength of your bargaining position is weaker. If you were starving and about to lose your home the strength of your bargaining position would be weaker regardless of any formal education or ability etc etc
    Again, unions artificially raise the value of labor. Your "skill" is underwater welding, your only competition is other underwater welders. If there are more underwater welders than there are jobs, the value of your skill decreases. On the other hand, if the demand for underwater welders far exceeds the supply, your value balloons significantly.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  8. #488
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Again, unions artificially raise the value of labor. Your "skill" is underwater welding, your only competition is other underwater welders. If there are more underwater welders than there are jobs, the value of your skill decreases. On the other hand, if the demand for underwater welders far exceeds the supply, your value balloons significantly.
    As a certified (non-underwater) welder, my value isn't determined by the number of other certified welders. It's the fact I'm certified. It would be more true for someone who is underwater certified because not only do they need certification in welding but also diving. Their value isn't determined by how many people can do it, it's the fact they are certified to do it. Any moron can watch a video on how to scuba dive, but to do it properly and safely you need to be certified. Just like any idiot can pick up a rod and say they're a welder. In order to do my (previous ) job you have to be certified. That deserves a higher pay grade compared to someone who isn't certified. Had my job not been union I wouldn't have been making as much as I did.

  9. #489
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    As a certified (non-underwater) welder, my value isn't determined by the number of other certified welders. It's the fact I'm certified. It would be more true for someone who is underwater certified because not only do they need certification in welding but also diving. Their value isn't determined by how many people can do it, it's the fact they are certified to do it. Any moron can watch a video on how to scuba dive, but to do it properly and safely you need to be certified. Just like any idiot can pick up a rod and say they're a welder. In order to do my (previous ) job you have to be certified. That deserves a higher pay grade compared to someone who isn't certified. Had my job not been union I wouldn't have been making as much as I did.
    You are still competing against people with your skillset 9in this case certified welder). If you cannot weld to the level needed, you are not going to be hired. If you can, you will be paid what the market will bear for that level of skill. If there is a shortage of skilled welders, your value goes up. If there is a glut of skilled welders your value goes down. You admit that your union artificially increased your value.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  10. #490
    Servility has been beaten into the American national consciousness to a degree that amazes me, people will argue endlessly against their own economic interests on behalf of their corporate overlords no matter just how miserable their labor conditions and salaries actually are, and believe that their misery somehow makes them "free".

    It's a sight to behold.

    (P.S I'm writing this as an American who happens to work in corporate upper management levels in Europe. The shit an American worker will happily eat for pittance is unique in the developed world.)

  11. #491
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I didn't say it was easy, I said it was preferable.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, unions artificially raise the value of labor. Your "skill" is underwater welding, your only competition is other underwater welders. If there are more underwater welders than there are jobs, the value of your skill decreases. On the other hand, if the demand for underwater welders far exceeds the supply, your value balloons significantly.
    This concept of "artificially increasing the wage" seems to suggest their is some natural wage that exists irrespective of literally every other condition. Why are wage increases because of collective bargaining any more or less "artifical" than say a scarcity n the market for engineers? let's say an economic crash happens and the labor market is depressed is this artifical or natural? I want to tease this distinction out because I think its a really weak attempt to ignore the structural forces that undergird any wage negotiation. If a wage negotiation is actually a power dynamic then you can't simple wish that away by saying supply and demand. Hell even that itself doesn't just exist naturally. A number of factors can influence supply and demand and its hard to see why any of these are "artifical".
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-04-11 at 12:33 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    You are still competing against people with your skillset 9in this case certified welder). If you cannot weld to the level needed, you are not going to be hired. If you can, you will be paid what the market will bear for that level of skill. If there is a shortage of skilled welders, your value goes up. If there is a glut of skilled welders your value goes down. You admit that your union artificially increased your value.
    That's not how the labor market, or specifically certified skilled labor works whatsoever. Unionization, collective negotiation and union regulatory lobbying all interact to determine what counts as "skilled labor" and how to price it. Remove unions and there are various work arounds available for industry to decrease the value of skilled labor. Anything ranging from lowering quality standards, outsourcing, in-house training coupled with prohibitive exclusivity contracts, proprietary processes with non-transferable labor skills etc.

    You are very fixated on the word "artificial", something that is actually utterly meaningless in this context. The "market" isn't something governed by natural laws or whatnot. Unionization increasing the value of labor is just as artificial as lack of unionization decreasing the value of labor. The market is an artificial human construct, and everything besides weather and the sheer availability of raw materials (tho even there there are artificial influences) is an artificial influence on the behavior of the market. You need to really chill with this weird "market" worship.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-04-11 at 12:39 AM.

  13. #493
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This concept of "artificially increasing the wage" seems to suggest their is some natural wage that exists irrespective of literally every other condition. Why are wage increases because of collective bargaining any more or less "artifical" than say a scarcity n the market for engineers? let's say an economic crash happens and the labor market is depressed is this artifical or natural? I want to tease this distinction out because I think its a really weak attempt to ignore the structural forces that undergird any wage negotiation. If a wage negotiation is actually a power dynamic then you can't simple wish that away by saying supply and demand. Hell even that itself doesn't just exist naturally. A number of factors can influence supply and demand and its hard to see why any of these are "artifical".
    Wage negotiation is easy, the more in demand your skills are, the more you make. Artificial is when rules are put into place that are specifically intended to remove supply and demand of skill from wages. I am not saying it is good or bad, just what it is.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  14. #494
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    You are still competing against people with your skillset 9in this case certified welder). If you cannot weld to the level needed, you are not going to be hired. If you can, you will be paid what the market will bear for that level of skill. If there is a shortage of skilled welders, your value goes up. If there is a glut of skilled welders your value goes down. You admit that your union artificially increased your value.
    No, they didn't. They ensured I was paid what I am owed for being certified and even then I was being paid on the low end of the scale. Do you think $24/hour for the level of certification I have and the work I do is "inflated?" I worked for a multi-BILLION dollar corporation. The top execs in the company make several million dollar bonuses yearly so don't give me that crap about "what the market can handle." It's all about what they can get away with and paying us as low as they can.

    This narrative you're pushing is nothing more than conservative nonsense to make you think you aren't worth more. That the system is right in it's judgement of your worth. Do you know who's creating that system? Do you know who's benefiting from it? Not you or me that's for sure. It's nothing more than a race to the bottom. A lie you can parrot when others start thinking they should be treated fairly. And the only means we have of leveling the field is with unions because our elected officials are bought off.

  15. #495
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    That's not how the labor market, or specifically certified skilled labor works whatsoever. Unionization, collective negotiation and union regulatory lobbying all interact to determine what counts as "skilled labor" and how to price it. Remove unions and there are various work arounds available for industry to decrease the value of skilled labor. Anything ranging from lowering quality standards, outsourcing, in-house training coupled with prohibitive exclusivity contracts, proprietary processes with non-transferable labor skills etc.

    You are very fixated on the word "artificial", something that is actually utterly meaningless in this context. The "market" isn't something governed by natural laws or whatnot. Unionization increasing the value of labor is just as artificial as lack of unionization decreasing the value of labor. The market is an artificial human construct, and everything besides weather and the sheer availability of raw materials (tho even there there are artificial influences) is an artificial influence on the behavior of the market. You need to really chill with this weird "market" worship.
    Artificially constraining the supply of labor is still artificial.

    The true value of labor is the cost to hire/retain the number and quality of personnel needed to produce the quantity and of product sold without dictated minimums.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Wage negotiation is easy, the more in demand your skills are, the more you make. Artificial is when rules are put into place that are specifically intended to remove supply and demand of skill from wages. I am not saying it is good or bad, just what it is.
    As I said earlier, rules that influence the value of labor exist to offset the tools available to industry to decrease the value of labor. The question isn't whether interfering with the value of labor should exist or not, the question is who gets to influence the value of labor to what degree. In the absence of unions, the value of labor is determined by industry, and industry will do everything under the sun to decrease the value of labor to maximize profit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Artificially constraining the supply of labor is still artificial.

    The true value of labor is the cost to hire/retain the number and quality of personnel needed to produce the quantity and of product sold without dictated minimums.
    Without dictated minimums the cost of hiring and retention can be pushed fucking rock bottom to a much greater degree than you can possibly imagine. I even listed some of the techniques available to do so. None of this is a novelty, it has literally all been done before in the heydays of industrialization.

    There are others, especially in the US, like the interaction between employer provided healthcare, wages and worker retention, and glaringly, deregulatory lobbying concerning industry standards, product safety standards and labor standards.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Your spin is as hilariously bad as the pro-union radicals here.
    1. A poster? So? Unions handed out their own propaganda to all employees. Don't see you out raged about that. Oh I forgot, It's perfectly OK for Un
    ions to do it, but the company is not allowed to inform it's employees about unions. Your hypocrisy is growing.

    2. Show me proof that Amazon fired anyone for mentioning unions. So, not only are you a hypocrite, you are a liar too.

    3. LOL calling far left media who spin their reporting to fit their pro-union bias is not reporting.

    4.Everyone votes. That camera also can't show you how they voted. That camera is also a security camera and no matter where the mailbox is put, a security camera will be on it. If they are not allowed to install a box, then the USPS should be reported. Since they haven't been, it;s the Unions once again lying out their rears. That argument is beyond ridiculous.

    Your post is notiing but parroting the propaganda used by the media arm of the unions. Also funny how you completely spun away from unions screwing their members over on wages and refusing to condemn them for it. Your silence and hypocrisy is deafening.
    ah yes the , "show me proof" troll two step

    next step;

    no not that proof because its from a "fake news" source even if it can be sourced and verified.

    rinse and repeat

  18. #498
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    No, they didn't. They ensured I was paid what I am owed for being certified and even then I was being paid on the low end of the scale. Do you think $24/hour for the level of certification I have and the work I do is "inflated?" I worked for a multi-BILLION dollar corporation. The top execs in the company make several million dollar bonuses yearly so don't give me that crap about "what the market can handle." It's all about what they can get away with and paying us as low as they can.

    This narrative you're pushing is nothing more than conservative nonsense to make you think you aren't worth more. That the system is right in it's judgement of your worth. Do you know who's creating that system? Do you know who's benefiting from it? Not you or me that's for sure. It's nothing more than a race to the bottom. A lie you can parrot when others start thinking they should be treated fairly. And the only means we have of leveling the field is with unions because our elected officials are bought off.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe becoming a certified welder takes nothing more than being able to pass the AWS practical test. What is the regular wage for a non-union certified welder doing similar work in your area? Is it less than $24 an hour? If so, yes it is inflated.

    I am saying it is artificial, not if it is bad or good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    As I said earlier, rules that influence the value of labor exist to offset the tools available to industry to decrease the value of labor. The question isn't whether interfering with the value of labor should exist or not, the question is who gets to influence the value of labor to what degree. In the absence of unions, the value of labor is determined by industry, and industry will do everything under the sun to decrease the value of labor to maximize profit.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Without dictated minimums the cost of hiring and retention can be pushed fucking rock bottom to a much greater degree than you can possibly imagine. I even listed some of the techniques available to do so. None of this is a novelty, it has literally all been done before in the heydays of industrialization.

    There are others, especially in the US, like the interaction between employer provided healthcare, wages and worker retention, and glaringly, deregulatory lobbying concerning industry standards, product safety standards and labor standards.
    The race to the bottom only exists when there is more labor than work available. Hence why my company will pay complete idiots off the street more than minimum wage for simple manual jobs.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  19. #499
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)
    By describing it as an "artificial inflation", you're implicitly arguing that A> it's not natural, and B> it's "bad".

    If we're going to be fair and state there are no "natural" pressures, here, then they're pushing to inflate the value of members' labor. Because the employer is constantly working to devalue workers' labor. Unions exist to be an opposing force to that. They do not exist within a vacuum, but as a direct response to extant devaluation.

    Seriously, it's economics. It's literally all "artificial".

  20. #500
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe becoming a certified welder takes nothing more than being able to pass the AWS practical test. What is the regular wage for a non-union certified welder doing similar work in your area? Is it less than $24 an hour? If so, yes it is inflated.

    I am saying it is artificial, not if it is bad or good.
    You make it sound like I sat down and took a written test. Last I heard you can pay $500 per test plate to be certified, but it has to be near flawless depending on what degree you wish to be certified. Mine is to the 1.1 standard, which is flawless. I was fortunate that when I was laid off during the recession I could go to tech school and receive unemployment the entire time. It took a year and a half to finish and be certified. My certification plates were 3/8 inch thick and there were 4 of them. The test plates for my job were 3/4 inch thick by 12 inch long and there were 7 of them. Three SMAW, three FCAW and one stainless steal plate. The SS one was in 2G position and the rest were 2G, 3G and 4G. It took 12 hours over the course of two days to finish those. It took the whole year of practicing every day before I was good enough to take these tests. And most who took the class didn't make it to the end.

    As for the non-union certified welding jobs, there aren't many. I am in the process of applying for a few but with "falsifying documents" on my termination letter makes it a bit hard to get one. I'm more than likely going to have to work at a place that doesn't care if you are certified or not and will have to take a major pay cut. Or go on the road and I really don't want that. That is were the union jobs are typically located at. Away from home....

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