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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Wage negotiation is easy, the more in demand your skills are, the more you make. Artificial is when rules are put into place that are specifically intended to remove supply and demand of skill from wages. I am not saying it is good or bad, just what it is.
    That is the most simplistic view of the labor field and is basically ignorant of any class analysis. In short its not representative of reality in any way shape or form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Repeating BS spin doesn't make it fact.
    Sure ignore the rest of the post. That'll make you look like you have a point... so you're essentially in favour of the exploitation of the workforce, that is my takeaway from this. Gives me even more reason to promote unions, to spite people like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    "Good" and "bad" are subjective. Also, strength (especially in numbers) is not the same as quality. A strong union does not mean it is a quality union.

    I'm glad to see you understand that unions are industrial level extortion.
    Of course they are extortion. Why? Because the workforce has no defense against corporate greed. It's not the unions that start the extortion, it's the corporations. If your only argument is "don't blackmail the blackmailers", that's a weak ass argument, my man. That unions in the US suck is a problem, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean the concept of unions is faulty. Just means replacing corporate greed with union greed is not the point of unions. The point of unions is to fight labour battles ON BEHALF of their union members.

    There's a reason why unions and labour councils in companies are regulated by law in Germany. It's to prevent bad unions from developing and to ensure that unions can't be blocked out. For instance, in Germany if you are voted into the labour council of a company (mandatory for companies above 40 people btw), you cannot legally be fired unless in the most extreme circumstances (ie. you stealing from the company as an example). Labor protection in the US needs to happen or you'll just continue widening the pay gap. But, of course... that requires regulation and your glorious GOP keeps selling the libertarian (ie. really corporatist) idea of deregulation because that's better for anyone (anyone owning a company that is).

    It's amazing that your blue collar workers keep voting for people that want to fuck them over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)
    Wrong. The purpose of unions is to represent their workers in labor disputes. When the owner of a company meets up with a worker to discuss his contract, that is not a negotiation between equals. Especially not in the US. That's extortion. Take this contract or you're out. The union balances that negotiation by representing all of its union members. That's not an artificial inflation of the value of their labor, that's an inflation of the negotiation position. The labor is worth the same it always was. The point is that in the US the workforce is being sold out WAY under value. Labor protection is a joke over there.

    Can you really call it inflation if it gets the value to its correct price? Maybe it's not an inflation but rather a correction of artificial deflation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    As I said, they make employees more valuable than the market dictates. You can coach it in more flattering terms, but at the end of the day, that is their function.
    The market dictates? The market would reintroduce slavery if that was legal. The market is shit and by no means a measure to be used seriously in a discussion like this. The market kills people. 100% turbo capitalism is not the way to go. Jeez, and you wonder why the US is so fucked up it votes a clown like Trump into office. That's desperation... maybe you will get your civil war at some point. And that point will be when people wise up to Amazon just barely clearing the "this is slavery" hurdle while the founder jumps to the top of Forbes' billionair pissing contest. I'm surprised with all these mass shootings that nobody decided to go and kill these billionaires, yet. It's amazing how he increases his net value by 50% while HIS drivers have to piss in bottles to get through the day.

    And you think that's cool, that's alright because "the market dictates" it. That's amazing in its own right... :P
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  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    By describing it as an "artificial inflation", you're implicitly arguing that A> it's not natural, and B> it's "bad".

    If we're going to be fair and state there are no "natural" pressures, here, then they're pushing to inflate the value of members' labor. Because the employer is constantly working to devalue workers' labor. Unions exist to be an opposing force to that. They do not exist within a vacuum, but as a direct response to extant devaluation.

    Seriously, it's economics. It's literally all "artificial".
    Artificial inflation is like artificial insemination; neither are natural and if they are good/bad depends on your own opinion.

    An employer can only devalue labor when there is a surplus of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    You make it sound like I sat down and took a written test. Last I heard you can pay $500 per test plate to be certified, but it has to be near flawless depending on what degree you wish to be certified. Mine is to the 1.1 standard, which is flawless. I was fortunate that when I was laid off during the recession I could go to tech school and receive unemployment the entire time. It took a year and a half to finish and be certified. My certification plates were 3/8 inch thick and there were 4 of them. The test plates for my job were 3/4 inch thick by 12 inch long and there were 7 of them. Three SMAW, three FCAW and one stainless steal plate. The SS one was in 2G position and the rest were 2G, 3G and 4G. It took 12 hours over the course of two days to finish those. It took the whole year of practicing every day before I was good enough to take these tests. And most who took the class didn't make it to the end.

    As for the non-union certified welding jobs, there aren't many. I am in the process of applying for a few but with "falsifying documents" on my termination letter makes it a bit hard to get one. I'm more than likely going to have to work at a place that doesn't care if you are certified or not and will have to take a major pay cut. Or go on the road and I really don't want that. That is were the union jobs are typically located at. Away from home....
    Hence why I said practical test and not just test. The only requirement for certification is skill, it doesn't matter how you got the skill. That does not mean its easy to pass the test.

    Well, getting fired for falsifying documents is not easy to overcome in any profession. I honestly wish you good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That is the most simplistic view of the labor field and is basically ignorant of any class analysis. In short its not representative of reality in any way shape or form.
    A quick look at Craigslist says its pretty representative of reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Sure ignore the rest of the post. That'll make you look like you have a point... so you're essentially in favour of the exploitation of the workforce, that is my takeaway from this. Gives me even more reason to promote unions, to spite people like you.

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    Of course they are extortion. Why? Because the workforce has no defense against corporate greed. It's not the unions that start the extortion, it's the corporations. If your only argument is "don't blackmail the blackmailers", that's a weak ass argument, my man. That unions in the US suck is a problem, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean the concept of unions is faulty. Just means replacing corporate greed with union greed is not the point of unions. The point of unions is to fight labour battles ON BEHALF of their union members.

    There's a reason why unions and labour councils in companies are regulated by law in Germany. It's to prevent bad unions from developing and to ensure that unions can't be blocked out. For instance, in Germany if you are voted into the labour council of a company (mandatory for companies above 40 people btw), you cannot legally be fired unless in the most extreme circumstances (ie. you stealing from the company as an example). Labor protection in the US needs to happen or you'll just continue widening the pay gap. But, of course... that requires regulation and your glorious GOP keeps selling the libertarian (ie. really corporatist) idea of deregulation because that's better for anyone (anyone owning a company that is).

    It's amazing that your blue collar workers keep voting for people that want to fuck them over.

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    Wrong. The purpose of unions is to represent their workers in labor disputes. When the owner of a company meets up with a worker to discuss his contract, that is not a negotiation between equals. Especially not in the US. That's extortion. Take this contract or you're out. The union balances that negotiation by representing all of its union members. That's not an artificial inflation of the value of their labor, that's an inflation of the negotiation position. The labor is worth the same it always was. The point is that in the US the workforce is being sold out WAY under value. Labor protection is a joke over there.

    Can you really call it inflation if it gets the value to its correct price? Maybe it's not an inflation but rather a correction of artificial deflation.

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    The market dictates? The market would reintroduce slavery if that was legal. The market is shit and by no means a measure to be used seriously in a discussion like this. The market kills people. 100% turbo capitalism is not the way to go. Jeez, and you wonder why the US is so fucked up it votes a clown like Trump into office. That's desperation... maybe you will get your civil war at some point. And that point will be when people wise up to Amazon just barely clearing the "this is slavery" hurdle while the founder jumps to the top of Forbes' billionair pissing contest. I'm surprised with all these mass shootings that nobody decided to go and kill these billionaires, yet. It's amazing how he increases his net value by 50% while HIS drivers have to piss in bottles to get through the day.

    And you think that's cool, that's alright because "the market dictates" it. That's amazing in its own right... :P
    I am glad to see at least someone is willing to admit that unions are extortionists. It is up to each individual to decide if that is ok or not, just as it is up to each individual to decide if corporate extortion is ok or not.

    On a side note, I actually do believe in regulation when appropriate and I am not against the concept of unions in principle.
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  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I am glad to see at least someone is willing to admit that unions are extortionists. It is up to each individual to decide if that is ok or not, just as it is up to each individual to decide if corporate extortion is ok or not.

    On a side note, I actually do believe in regulation when appropriate and I am not against the concept of unions in principle.
    I wonder, are you one of those guys that walks up to the gas station and unironically calls their prices extortion, too?
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  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    ah yes the , "show me proof" troll two step

    next step;

    no not that proof because its from a "fake news" source even if it can be sourced and verified.

    rinse and repeat
    I should have just added the idiot to my ignore a while ago. I mean there is Rashad Long in NY you was fired for stuff that wasn't an issue until he tried organizing a union. Of course he wasn't fired for saying union, but it's funny how missing metrics isn't an issue until he talked about unionizing.

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Hence why I said practical test and not just test. The only requirement for certification is skill, it doesn't matter how you got the skill. That does not mean its easy to pass the test.
    There's a meme I saw a while back that sums up my thoughts pretty nicely.

    "You aren't paying me for the 10 minutes it took me to do the job, you are paying me the years it took me to be good enough to do the job in 10 minutes."

    Well, getting fired for falsifying documents is not easy to overcome in any profession. I honestly wish you good luck.
    Thanks.

  7. #507
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I wonder, are you one of those guys that walks up to the gas station and unironically calls their prices extortion, too?
    I consider OPEC to practice extortion at times, but in general no I do not consider the price of gas to be extortion. If I don't like the price of gas I just don't use as much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    There's a meme I saw a while back that sums up my thoughts pretty nicely.

    "You aren't paying me for the 10 minutes it took me to do the job, you are paying me the years it took me to be good enough to do the job in 10 minutes."



    Thanks.
    Hmm... Does that mean a person who took 3 years to achieve perfection should be paid more than the person who only took 3 months?
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  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Hmm... Does that mean a person who took 3 years to achieve perfection should be paid more than the person who only took 3 months?
    You don't get to "perfection" in 3 months. There are some more gifted than others, but it doesn't happen in that short of a time frame. It took me 4 years of MIG welding at my first welding job before I learned how to weld with stick and even then I was close to giving up several times. That is why someone who is certified should be paid more than someone who is not. And any job that requires certification is a job best suited for a union to ensure the workers are paid what they are worth.

    Another point to think about, how much longer do you think the person who's welded for 3 months will take doing the same job as a welder who's done it for 3 years? Can they do it is as well as the senior guy? From experience, no. My company has hired people off the street without certification to fill positions before. The company itself "certifies" these welders in house but those certs can't be taken to other companies. Few of them last long.

    And with a lacking of certified welders available for hire shouldn't we be getting a pay raise? Aren't my services more valuable now? No. The company just tells us to increase production. I shit you not the last time we were told what our efficiency had to be it was 160%! They would reduce the amount of time allocated to all of the jobs we had to do by another 30%(it was 130% before). Now we couldn't be fired for production thanks to the union, but that didn't stop the company's bullshit.

  9. #509
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    You don't get to "perfection" in 3 months. There are some more gifted than others, but it doesn't happen in that short of a time frame. It took me 4 years of MIG welding at my first welding job before I learned how to weld with stick and even then I was close to giving up several times. That is why someone who is certified should be paid more than someone who is not. And any job that requires certification is a job best suited for a union to ensure the workers are paid what they are worth.

    Another point to think about, how much longer do you think the person who's welded for 3 months will take doing the same job as a welder who's done it for 3 years? Can they do it is as well as the senior guy? From experience, no. My company has hired people off the street without certification to fill positions before. The company itself "certifies" these welders in house but those certs can't be taken to other companies. Few of them last long.

    And with a lacking of certified welders available for hire shouldn't we be getting a pay raise? Aren't my services more valuable now? No. The company just tells us to increase production. I shit you not the last time we were told what our efficiency had to be it was 160%! They would reduce the amount of time allocated to all of the jobs we had to do by another 30%(it was 130% before). Now we couldn't be fired for production thanks to the union, but that didn't stop the company's bullshit.
    The times were just arbitrary for the sake of argument.

    Obviously the company has been able to attract enough welders to meet its minimal demands, or they would be working to attract more.
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  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The times were just arbitrary for the sake of argument.

    Obviously the company has been able to attract enough welders to meet its minimal demands, or they would be working to attract more.
    No, they just send the work to shops outside of the network. And these shops cost more for the work than keeping it inhouse would. It cuts into total profit so the company tries not to do it.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I consider OPEC to practice extortion at times, but in general no I do not consider the price of gas to be extortion. If I don't like the price of gas I just don't use as much.
    So by your argument, if someone's not happy with their pay, they could just starve a little or quit the job and be homeless. That's your logic? If I take the term extortion to it's perverse extreme, I am extorting you when I say "Hello" to you, because that puts you under a social obligation to greet me back. How about with dispense with the childish semantics that are the only thing holding up your argument and instead you talk about the issue: The gross imbalance of power between the corporation and the individual worker.
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  12. #512
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So by your argument, if someone's not happy with their pay, they could just starve a little or quit the job and be homeless. That's your logic? If I take the term extortion to it's perverse extreme, I am extorting you when I say "Hello" to you, because that puts you under a social obligation to greet me back. How about with dispense with the childish semantics that are the only thing holding up your argument and instead you talk about the issue: The gross imbalance of power between the corporation and the individual worker.
    If I don't like my job, I find a better one. I am under no obligation to respond to a random person saying "hello" to me. The imbalance of power is directly related to the "importance" of the individual to the corporation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    No, they just send the work to shops outside of the network. And these shops cost more for the work than keeping it inhouse would. It cuts into total profit so the company tries not to do it.
    The cost of sending it out would be less than the cost of maintaining a workforce of sufficient capacity to not require outsourcing.
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  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    If I don't like my job, I find a better one. I am under no obligation to respond to a random person saying "hello" to me. The imbalance of power is directly related to the "importance" of the individual to the corporation.
    That's a very one-sided and unfair view belonging to the middle ages and the concept of serfdom rather than a modern society. I've had this discussion on this board more than once, and it appalls me how casually people like you dismiss the needs of the weak and basically just accept that some people just need to suffer so you can live a comfortable life. I guess there is no more discussion to be had here, and all that remains for me to say is I am glad I live in Europe and not the US.

    Oh, and please.. never, ever ask why people are unhappy in the US and feel the need to stir shit up by voting clowns like Trump into office. You should know the answer to that.
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  14. #514
    Of course the US right wing folks abhor unions. Can't be having anything that might help people, can they?

  15. #515
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The cost of sending it out would be less than the cost of maintaining a workforce of sufficient capacity to not require outsourcing.
    No, it isn't. If it were true then our company wouldn't even have a workforce to begin with. It may be true with manufacturing jobs but we are a tank car repair facility. Not only would the company be paying for the labor, they'd also be paying overhead charges for the outsourced work we sent them. Charges the other companies have to pay in order to maintain their workforce.

  16. #516
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That's a very one-sided and unfair view belonging to the middle ages and the concept of serfdom rather than a modern society. I've had this discussion on this board more than once, and it appalls me how casually people like you dismiss the needs of the weak and basically just accept that some people just need to suffer so you can live a comfortable life. I guess there is no more discussion to be had here, and all that remains for me to say is I am glad I live in Europe and not the US.

    Oh, and please.. never, ever ask why people are unhappy in the US and feel the need to stir shit up by voting clowns like Trump into office. You should know the answer to that.
    Life is not fair. Never has been never will be. I am not Dippy Dawg, I do not think the world owes me a living. That does not mean I am against the idea of providing people with a minimal amount of shelter and sustenance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    No, it isn't. If it were true then our company wouldn't even have a workforce to begin with. It may be true with manufacturing jobs but we are a tank car repair facility. Not only would the company be paying for the labor, they'd also be paying overhead charges for the outsourced work we sent them. Charges the other companies have to pay in order to maintain their workforce.
    There is a point where the variable amount of work makes it more economic to have a smaller fixed workforce augmented by outsourcing than having a full time workforce sufficient to handle the maximum. Tank cars are not a steady need, especially ones intended to transport fracked petroleum products.
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  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    There is a point where the variable amount of work makes it more economic to have a smaller fixed workforce augmented by outsourcing than having a full time workforce sufficient to handle the maximum.
    Or hire enough people to cover your needs and if those needs drop lay off. And the word from the top of the company is we have plenty of need.

    Tank cars are not a steady need, especially ones intended to transport fracked petroleum products.
    Their repair is a steady need. They have due dates for certifications that must be met in order to roll on any track. Even if they go into storage when they come out they must be inspected and all parts must be within their service period. Everything from welds on the tank to gaskets for the valves have a due date.

    And our company is one of the largest. Petro cars are only a fraction of what we transport.

    Since we're getting off subject discussing my profession I'll end it by getting back on track. Jobs as important as the one I had deserve to be paid a fair share. We ensure materials are safely transported across this nation and others. We have to go through good lengths to ensure we are good enough to do this job. The only way we can ensure we are paid that fair share is with a union. It was because of that union that I wasn't fired for refusing to put myself in danger like my supervisor wanted me to just to get a car done faster. It is because of that union I am able to fight to get my job back because the managers made up crap to get me out the door.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Life is not fair. Never has been never will be. I am not Dippy Dawg, I do not think the world owes me a living. That does not mean I am against the idea of providing people with a minimal amount of shelter and sustenance.
    Why? To ease your conscience is that part of your fake charity culture? So people can worship you as their saviour? :P

    Minimal amount of shelter and sustainance... that's what was good enough for serfs and slaves. I'm glad you're that one necessary step above treating humans like animals. You do not seem to support societal advances that came in after the middle ages, though... might want to work on that, we're in the 21st century now.
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  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    Or hire enough people to cover your needs and if those needs drop lay off. And the word from the top of the company is we have plenty of need.



    Their repair is a steady need. They have due dates for certifications that must be met in order to roll on any track. Even if they go into storage when they come out they must be inspected and all parts must be within their service period. Everything from welds on the tank to gaskets for the valves have a due date.

    And our company is one of the largest. Petro cars are only a fraction of what we transport.

    Since we're getting off subject discussing my profession I'll end it by getting back on track. Jobs as important as the one I had deserve to be paid a fair share. We ensure materials are safely transported across this nation and others. We have to go through good lengths to ensure we are good enough to do this job. The only way we can ensure we are paid that fair share is with a union. It was because of that union that I wasn't fired for refusing to put myself in danger like my supervisor wanted me to just to get a car done faster. It is because of that union I am able to fight to get my job back because the managers made up crap to get me out the door.
    Layoff can be costly.

    Yes, I know tank cars require constant inspection, and that oil tank cars are just a portion of the fleet. I also know their inspection/repair locations are generally in the regions they are used in, which is why you see fewer petro tanks than, say, UTLX's facility in Anacortes, WA.

    No offense, but it seems your union failed to protect you from bring falsely fired. That is disappointing as that is one of the things unions are supposed to do in theory that I have little disagreement with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Why? To ease your conscience is that part of your fake charity culture? So people can worship you as their saviour? :P

    Minimal amount of shelter and sustainance... that's what was good enough for serfs and slaves. I'm glad you're that one necessary step above treating humans like animals. You do not seem to support societal advances that came in after the middle ages, though... might want to work on that, we're in the 21st century now.
    That would depend on one's definition of minimal.
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  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Life is not fair. Never has been never will be. I am not Dippy Dawg, I do not think the world owes me a living.
    Unless your living through unearned income or economic rent thats sacrosanct. Labor though, well how dare you expect anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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