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  1. #521
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Unless your living through unearned income or economic rent thats sacrosanct. Labor though, well how dare you expect anything.
    I expect my labor will be paid for at market rates...
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  2. #522
    Stood in the Fire Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post

    YES. Union are supposed to be looking out for ALL workers not just the majority. They absolutely could bargain for more awages, but refused to because the majority made it so they could refuse to.
    So if 1 person out of a 1,000 Union feels that only vegan employees should receive a pay raise, should the Union push for that at the next bargaining meeting?

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    It is absolutely hilarious that you scream about corporations paying slave wages and then puff up unions to get them better wages then turn right around and say it is OK for Unions to screw workers over on wages. What a massive hypocrite you are. I guess as long as you get what you want screw everyone else huh?
    It is clear in your story that the majority of union members didn't view pay as an important issue. Sounds to me like your "family members" were butt hurt that they didn't get what they wanted and instead of trying to convince their fellow members that a pay increase was important, they blamed the Union as a whole for not catering to their individual demands.
    Princesses can kill knights to rescue dragons.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    So if 1 person out of a 1,000 Union feels that only vegan employees should receive a pay raise, should the Union push for that at the next bargaining meeting?



    It is clear in your story that the majority of union members didn't view pay as an important issue. Sounds to me like your "family members" were butt hurt that they didn't get what they wanted and instead of trying to convince their fellow members that a pay increase was important, they blamed the Union as a whole for not catering to their individual demands.
    The thrust of his argument is if the union isn't perfect and doesn't give every member exactly what they want it's a bad union.

    It's a nonsense argument that belies his opposition to the very notion of unions, alongside repeat evidence that he has no understanding of the history of unions or how any of them actually function. Which is like, pretty common amongst the anti-union crowd.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I expect my labor will be paid for at market rates...
    Since outsourcing is typically done in favor of Chinese labor those rates should apply.

  5. #525
    Stood in the Fire Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The thrust of his argument is if the union isn't perfect and doesn't give every member exactly what they want it's a bad union.

    It's a nonsense argument that belies his opposition to the very notion of unions, alongside repeat evidence that he has no understanding of the history of unions or how any of them actually function. Which is like, pretty common amongst the anti-union crowd.
    My Dad felt this way too, despite getting the benefits of a "Not a Union, but really is one" (U.S. Military) and reaping the benefits of an actual Union (Teacher's Union). I remember when the Teacher's Union was threatening a walk out because the State refused to raise pay, my Dad railed against the walk out, saying it wouldn't work and he wouldn't take part. Well, the State backed down and raised pay without a walk out, and my Dad got that pay raise too. But he still complained that Unions were terrible and never did anything meaningful.
    Princesses can kill knights to rescue dragons.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    My Dad felt this way too, despite getting the benefits of a "Not a Union, but really is one" (U.S. Military) and reaping the benefits of an actual Union (Teacher's Union). I remember when the Teacher's Union was threatening a walk out because the State refused to raise pay, my Dad railed against the walk out, saying it wouldn't work and he wouldn't take part. Well, the State backed down and raised pay without a walk out, and my Dad got that pay raise too. But he still complained that Unions were terrible and never did anything meaningful.
    Oh, I used to have these arguments with my grandfather all the time...who spent much of his life in a government union and who had one son (my father) who was pretty much a lifelong union member after getting into his "career". Membership which provide health care that literally kept my family from going bankrupt many, many, many times over even as they struggled financially at times (and had to have his parents loan them money).

    The arguments largely played out with him repeating Fox talking points (he loved Fox) and us going back and forth only for me to remind him of the benefits he enjoyed because of his union membership and his grudging (and repeated) admission that "Alright, but there are still bad unions." which was about as close to convincing him as one could get.

    It's weird how you can directly benefit from something and see how it helps people, yet still buy the bullshit counter-arguments hook, line, and sinker, even when the bloody hook ain't even baited.

  7. #527
    On unionisation being called artificial; all market forces could fall under that definition. Market forces are driven by demands, and if workers demand more pay the market has to respond to that just like any other market force.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    So if 1 person out of a 1,000 Union feels that only vegan employees should receive a pay raise, should the Union push for that at the next bargaining meeting?
    LOL using an extreme to the defend the union screwing it's members out of wages. Here is a better one that is far more realistic unlike the BS one you put out. if 499 out of a 1,000 want pay raises but 501 don't care, should the union ignore the 499 at the next bargaining meeting?



    It is clear in your story that the majority of union members didn't view pay as an important issue. Sounds to me like your "family members" were butt hurt that they didn't get what they wanted and instead of trying to convince their fellow members that a pay increase was important, they blamed the Union as a whole for not catering to their individual demands.
    There were far more than my family members who were upset. It is beyond amazing how far you will go to kiss the unions ass and condone them keeping their members working for slave wages, yet you scream at corporations and accused them of doing it. Your level of hypocrisy is staggering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The thrust of his argument is if the union isn't perfect and doesn't give every member exactly what they want it's a bad union.

    It's a nonsense argument that belies his opposition to the very notion of unions, alongside repeat evidence that he has no understanding of the history of unions or how any of them actually function. Which is like, pretty common amongst the anti-union crowd.
    SO you are completely OK with slave wages as long as its the unions forcing it. Got it, The hypocrisy levels here are astounding.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    SO you are completely OK with slave wages as long as its the unions forcing it. Got it, The hypocrisy levels here are astounding.
    One day you'll respond to what I write and not whatever fanfiction you keep up in your head. One day.

    Because I've never said that, either.

  10. #530
    Stood in the Fire Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    LOL using an extreme to the defend the union screwing it's members out of wages. Here is a better one that is far more realistic unlike the BS one you put out. if 499 out of a 1,000 want pay raises but 501 don't care, should the union ignore the 499 at the next bargaining meeting?
    Couple of things here.
    First, how many other issues on the table have 60% majority? Or 70% majority? What about 80% or higher? Because those issues take negotiating priority to an issue with only 49% support.
    Second, the art of negotiation. If 80% of members want expanded healthcare benefits and 49% want higher pay, the vast majority of unions will put forth both for negotiation. But the priority goes to the issue with 80% support. So if cutting the 49% backed issue means passage of the 80% backed issue, you cut the 49% issue. You want both, but you focus on the higher supported issue in bargaining.
    Third, why didn't your "family members" try to convince some of the holdouts if the margins were so close? Every union meeting I have been to has allowed for people to speak on Union issues as part of New Business. We have an issue in my Union that didn't have a lot of support when it was first suggested, but after a few years and some convincing arguments in meetings, we voted to make it part of our negotiating goals. Did your "family members" just give up?

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    There were far more than my family members who were upset. It is beyond amazing how far you will go to kiss the unions ass and condone them keeping their members working for slave wages, yet you scream at corporations and accused them of doing it. Your level of hypocrisy is staggering
    Show me where I "screamed" at corporations for slave wages.
    I dare you to link to my exact words.
    Show me.
    Princesses can kill knights to rescue dragons.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    So if 1 person out of a 1,000 Union feels that only vegan employees should receive a pay raise, should the Union push for that at the next bargaining meeting?
    That's not how unions work. They are democratic institutions and vote on what they want to push through. That 1 person wanting to get a vegan pay rise is going to have one hell of a job convincing 999 other people his wish is a high priority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    LOL using an extreme to the defend the union screwing it's members out of wages. Here is a better one that is far more realistic unlike the BS one you put out. if 499 out of a 1,000 want pay raises but 501 don't care, should the union ignore the 499 at the next bargaining meeting?
    I thought you wanted to bring a no BS example. Here's a quick insight view from the real world: Unions ALWAYS want a pay rise. That's the #1 item on every meeting. It's the main reason why they exist. Followed closely by increased benefits, better working conditions and better job protection. All of those items are ALWAYS going to be on the list. The question is not if the unions demand it, the question is how strongly they demand it and how many percent that pay rise is going to be.

    It's like some people in this discussion have never actually had to work a real job.
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  12. #532
    Stood in the Fire Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That's not how unions work. They are democratic institutions and vote on what they want to push through. That 1 person wanting to get a vegan pay rise is going to have one hell of a job convincing 999 other people his wish is a high priority.
    I am aware of that. It was a hyperbole in response to rrayy's claims that Unions should always fight for everything their members want, not matter how few members want it.
    Princesses can kill knights to rescue dragons.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    I am aware of that. It was a hyperbole in response to rrayy's claims that Unions should always fight for everything their members want, not matter how few members want it.
    Yeah, I'm not sure at this point what you two have been squabbling about. Fact is, unions should always fight for what the member decide to have it fight for. Absolutely. Everytime the contract is up, there's gonna be a fight with the company for more money or whatever. That's just how it goes. It's a constant struggle. Now, not sure who came up with "all members", but whoever said that first is clueless. You two figure out who that was.
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  14. #534
    - - - Updated - - -


    In Alabama, where the employer used daily propaganda and threatening actions to make sure it didn't succeed. Shocker.
    Lost a vote, immediately blame someone other than the voters for the result. How about an alternative, like the workers voted freely in their own self-interest, and gave people like you the middle finger, and you just can’t accept that.

    Democracy involves losing, fairly, sometimes. You best get around to showing you support it even if you don’t like the results. Because right now it appears you want to fuck the workers if they don’t vote the way you want—they’re obviously pawns of propaganda or something.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    Lost a vote, immediately blame someone other than the voters for the result. How about an alternative, like the workers voted freely in their own self-interest, and gave people like you the middle finger, and you just can’t accept that.

    Democracy involves losing, fairly, sometimes. You best get around to showing you support it even if you don’t like the results. Because right now it appears you want to fuck the workers if they don’t vote the way you want—they’re obviously pawns of propaganda or something.
    They literally used bots and fucking propaganda in their workplaces to sway people. Much like Russians with Trump voters.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    They literally used bots and fucking propaganda in their workplaces to sway people. Much like Russians with Trump voters.
    Everyone uses those things or similar when they want to win elections. In the end the choice and responsibility lays with the voters themselves.

    I mean, I could argue likewise that anyone who voted for Biden over Bernie has been brainwashed by corporate shills.
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  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Everyone uses those things or similar when they want to win elections. In the end the choice and responsibility lays with the voters themselves.

    I mean, I could argue likewise that anyone who voted for Biden over Bernie has been brainwashed by corporate shills.
    Show me an example of Democrats using foreign countries, bots and propaganda to win the election.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Show me an example of Democrats using foreign countries, bots and propaganda to win the election.
    Entire msm networks are Democrat propaganda lol. Just because you refuse to call a spade a spade doesn't make it a gardening tool.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Entire msm networks are Democrat propaganda lol. Just because you refuse to call a spade a spade doesn't make it a gardening tool.
    examples? ten char

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Entire msm networks are Democrat propaganda lol. Just because you refuse to call a spade a spade doesn't make it a gardening tool.
    LOL, so, because you have no examples, you just want to call them propaganda because they hurt your little feelers with the truth?

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