5,800 Workers Voting to Unionize Their Amazon Facility

[Elegiac]

The only thing I can see is that you stated it would be hard for Amazon to find people willing to work at horrible conditions at minimum wage. Which I don't agree with.

And your disagreement was justified on the assertion that "undocumented immigrants seem willing to work in horrible conditions at minimum wage" which, again, isn't actually disputing what I said about the non-optional nature of labor force participation being a perverse incentive that drives wages down.

In the case of undocumented immigrants the perverse incentive is the fact they can't report wage theft or unsafe working conditions without the risk of getting deported. Has fuck all to do with people enjoying exploitative labor.

People don't always fit into boxes. I'm still very much a progressive. Acknowledging reality doesn't make someone not a progressive.

Sure, Jan. Nothing about your ideology is progressive, as evidenced by the "Well maybe some people just prefer being exploited" nonsense that was tossed out as a response to UBI of all things.

[downnola]

I don't disagree with that, but even documented ones seem more than willing to work in unsafe conditions and for far below minimum wage. Even non-immigrants seem willing to do it, especially those who don't have much else to fall back on. So I'm still not sure why you made the "Amazon probably can't find people ------->willingly<-------- to do it,"-statement in the first place. I don't see how that probably false statement is supposed to help anyone. If it -really- was true that Amazon wouldn't be able to find anyone that would mean we wouldn't need unions to begin with...

Pointing out the important part of the sentence. Willingly taking on work vs being forced to do so because otherwise you and your family would starve to death are two different things.

[Elegiac]

I don't disagree with that, but even documented ones seem more than willing to work in unsafe conditions and for far below minimum wage. Even non-immigrants seem willing to do it, especially those who don't have much else to fall back on.

Then why mention undocumented immigrants at all when the problem is actually wage theft and exploitation?

So I'm still not sure why you made the "Amazon probably can't find people willing to do it,"-statement in the first place. I don't see how that probably false statement is supposed to help anyone. If it -really- was true that Amazon wouldn't be able to find anyone that would mean we wouldn't need unions to begin with...

Oh, okay. You just didn't actually read what I said.

Now if participation in the labor market were voluntary then yes, you could - but chances are Amazon wouldn't be able to find anyone willing to work for minimum wage in horrific conditions.

Participation in the labor market is not voluntary in the United States. Lol.

[Glorious Leader]

Okay but if threats of punishment and harmful repercussions are a valid negotiation/bargaining tactic then that also means they are valid for the employer when they are negotiating and bargaining with pro-union people. You can't say that a union can threaten to withhold labor if the employer doesn't offer more compensation and then say the employer can't threaten to withhold the work opportunity and pay of pro-union people. Unless you just want to straight-up admit that what you want is a double standard and not logical consistency across the board.

This analysis basically ignores the concept of class as a whole and the relative disparity in power between labor and capital. Its basically just ignorant of reality.

[Elegiac]

I understand that, but... who is to blame for everyone having to non-willingly volunteer for shitty jobs, except everyone else who does it too?

Gee, I dunno, maybe the people with capital who underpay and exploit? This seems like a very tortured way to try and justify blaming low wages on immigrants.

[downnola]

I understand that, but... who is to blame for everyone having to non-willingly volunteer for shitty jobs, except everyone else who does it too?

Democrats!

[Edge-]

I understand that, but... who is to blame for everyone having to non-willingly volunteer for shitty jobs, except everyone else who does it too?

Uh...corporations and capitalism?

When was there this hard turn from unapologetic leftist progressive to nativist xenophobia?

[Elegiac]

Not until those 'people with capital' start using violence to force people to work those jobs.

Union busting and the threat of destitution isn't force, apparently.

We would have to do an entire bottom-up rehash of western law to somehow be able to put the blame with the employers for employees signing up voluntarily for shitty jobs.

Congratulations on discovering that systemic problems are in fact systemic and not the result of people "letting themselves be exploited".

And no, this isn't about immigrants or not, because as I pointed out, non-immigrants do it too, even if in less numbers.

Then it again begs the question; why did you even bring up immigrants in the first place.

[Milchshake]

Democrats!

It's their step dad's fault.

"Papa made me sweep the factory floor for a whole week! Before he made me Director of Inside Sales after graduating from Uni."

That's metric levels of coercion.

[Glorious Leader]

Not until those 'people with capital' start using violence to force people to work those jobs. We would have to do an entire bottom-up rewrite of western law to somehow be able to put the blame with the employers for employees signing up voluntarily for shitty jobs.

And no, this isn't about immigrants or not, because as I pointed out, non-immigrants do it too, even if in less numbers. And it's not even about immigration as a whole, because if your country doesn't allow those cheap immigrants in, those companies will just move to countries that do allow cheap labor / immigrants causing braindrain and jobloss at even higher levels in your own country.

Ridiculous. The fact that capital not only exploits the labor of individuals but further pushes for systemic changes (or obstructs progressive legislation to improve the situation) to increase the degree to which they can exploit labor is violence.

[Elegiac]

No, this isn't about immigrants or not

Then why did you mention them at all in a discussion about unionization and workplace exploitation?

That seems like a weird assumption, in my experience it's extremely easy to find many people willing to work in horrible conditions even below minimum wage (often immigrants).

Obvious dogwhistle is obvious.

[Felya]

If you weren't a moderator you'd probably get infracted for randomly calling someone a xenophobe without cause. I know because I'm somewhat of an infraction specialist.

That would mean you either don’t know what will get you infracted or that you do it on purpose.

- - - Updated - - -

Because that is reality.

Scapegoat. You live in the EU hub city for big oil, while pointing at immigrants.

[Elegiac]

It's just plain old reality that it's mostly immigrants who will volunteer in droves when you offer up shitty badly paid jobs. My wet thumb estimate puts it at about 75% immigrants, 25% non-immigrants.

Okay, but you literally just said that it "isn't about immigrants or not" so... Why mention them at all if it's not actually a material factor in whether or not workplace exploitation occurs? What story are you trying to tell by bringing that particular (uncited) 'fact' into the discussion?

[Felya]

It's a bit of a gamble indeed sometimes on this forum.

What’s a gamble? That punching down to blame immigrants, might get people to disagree with you?

- - - Updated - - -

Is harm done by mentioning the truth?

Your wet thumb is an example of bias, not truth...

[Elegiac]

Is harm done by mentioning the truth?

Yes, actually. Posting "facts" (again, you haven't actually provided any evidence of your claims) without context can be quite harmful.

[Glorious Leader]

It's a bit of a gamble indeed sometimes on this forum.

- - - Updated - - -



Is harm done by mentioning the truth? Even if it's the truth it doesn't mean it's some sort of stick that can be used against immigrants. As I already pointed out, nations who don't allow cheap labor in, through immigration, usually lose out too because they'll see companies leaving their country to chase that cheap labor.

So they're piggish and greedy and seeking to exploit labor even more. K. Capital controls.

[Elegiac]

Even if it isn't the truth it doesn't mean it's some sort of stick that can be used against immigrants.

Except for the fact it is; one of the Republican Party's primary justifications for their often violent xenophobia is the argument that immigrants lower wages and drive people out of jobs when neither is actually the case.

As I already pointed out, nations who don't allow cheap labor in, through immigration, usually lose out too because they'll see companies leaving their country to chase that cheap labor.

Which has fuck all to do with unionization and how workplace participation being non-optional is the primary incentive for people accepting shitty wages and shitty conditions. Again: obvious dogwhistle is obvious.

[Edge-]

Is harm done by mentioning the truth? Even if it's the truth it doesn't mean it's some sort of stick that can be used against immigrants. As I already pointed out, nations who don't allow cheap labor in, through immigration, usually lose out too because they'll see companies leaving their country to chase that cheap labor.

"The most vulnerable who will work for sub-standard survival wages are to blame for the situation where they need to work for sub-standard survival wages" ain't a great argument, dude.

[Felya]

But I've a hard time blaming them when you've literally got droves of people jumping into shit and letting themselves be exploited whenever those greedy capitalists ask people to bend over for them.

You don’t blame the elites for exploiting people, because people want to be exploited?

[Elegiac]

Some idiots using it as justification for flawed theories isn't really my problem.

It kinda is when you just claimed that your argument "can't be used as a stick against immigrants", lol.