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  1. #101
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    Conviction as in a firmly held belief or opinion
    Yeah, not all my puns land on target.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That context is important because Walmart didn't just act on their own or just in response to a competitor.
    Indeed. I believe it's called "Lawful Evil".

  2. #102
    Amazon closing and reopening to prevent the union, doubt they will do that because of the PR and potential legal aspects of it, unlike Walmart, they aren't so entrenched that they can tell the entire public to fuck off and still have no issues because their brick and mortar shoppers have little to no alternatives for many things.

    What I DO expect them to do is double down on efforts to automate as many workers away as possible. An effort that I completely and fully support and encourage. That future is coming anyways and the faster it gets here, the harder of a time the politicians have of ignoring it and pretending it isn't. The quicker and more public it makes that happen, the bigger the push for those at the top to acknowledge it and transition the economy to accept that reality when it comes to workers and their ability to survive.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Violence View Post
    That seems like a weird assumption, in my experience it's extremely easy to find many people willing to work in horrible conditions even below minimum wage (often immigrants).

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    It's extremely hard to find "facts" and "evidence" about activities that happen outside of the scope of legality.

    It's similar to how the FBI can only make estimates about how many children are being trafficked and forced into prostitution, while the actual evidence of that happening is almost non-existent. But it still happens in a much higher multitude than the officially reported numbers / documented cases.

    Anecdotally I agree with the fact that the existence of welfare queens is widespread in countries with strong social safety nets (and not much in the way of checks and balances on that welfare).
    Except they are not and the majority of people not working aren't not working because they'd rather not, but because circumstances forced them to stop looking.

    I am not denying that there is welfare fraud or people unwilling to work, but trying to claim they are the majority extensive is absurd. You know there would be tons of evidence being blasted by the right if this were the case. Yet again, it's typical talking points with no evidence.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    Except they are not and the majority of people not working aren't not working because they'd rather not, but because circumstances forced them to stop looking.

    I am not denying that there is welfare fraud or people unwilling to work, but trying to claim they are the majority extensive is absurd. You know there would be tons of evidence being blasted by the right if this were the case. Yet again, it's typical talking points with no evidence.
    Oh, I wouldn't say it's the majority either, it's probably a minority, but still quite a bit more than what official numbers might indicate.

    What bothers me usually in these discussions is that some people have the tendency to pretend there aren't any people at all ever committing welfare fraud or... what for me was the most comical, the idea that the concept of a 'welfare queen' is some sort of 'racist myth' - while I wasn't even remotely considering race in the equation, but speaking entirely from a west-european perspective...

    I'm all for strong social welfare systems, but I also think there should be strong checks and balances to combat fraud. The only thing that sours my mouth whenever I say that is that I'm well aware that corporations get much more welfare hand-outs than any common person could ever spend in a multitude of lifetimes - and that there might indeed be systemic forms of exploitation and abuse that put common people at a heavy disadvantage in the labor market as opposed to the employers. But I'm also not entirely on board with pretending that all employers are evil or malicious. I mean... can you really blame them when there's hordes of employees throwing themselves at their feet willing to do anything for a poverty wage? Are they supposed to be saints and say to themselves: "Damn, making money out of this is wrong. I should pay them an honest wage instead and perhaps not turn a profit at all..."
    Last edited by Yas-Queen Rochana; 2021-03-04 at 11:24 PM.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Violence View Post
    Oh, I wouldn't say it's the majority either, it's probably a minority, but still quite a bit more than what official numbers might indicate.
    Absent actual data, it's a fictional problem.

    Just like the myth of "welfare queens" in the US, which was always little more than racist nonsense of the highest order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Violence View Post
    What bothers me usually in these discussions is that some people have the tendency to pretend there aren't any people at all ever committing welfare fraud or... what for me was the most comical, the idea that the concept of a 'welfare queen' is some sort of 'racist myth' - while I wasn't even remotely considering race in the equation, but speaking entirely from a west-european perspective...
    From a US perspective yes, it's always been racist garbage and nothing more.

    Is there fraud in EU countries? Absolutely, there's fraud everywhere. But absent any data to quantify the fraud you can't realistically call it a problem as there's no way of actually knowing if the fraud is even statistically significant or some kind of minor rounding error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Violence View Post
    I mean... can you really blame them when there's hordes of employees throwing themselves at their feet willing to do anything for a poverty wage?
    Yes we god-damned can.

    https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman...doing-now.html

    Because companies have repeatedly shown that even if desperate people are willing to let themselves be exploited, the company doesn't need to exploit the shit outta them.

    Once more you're functionally blaming the wrong people.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Yes we god-damned can.

    https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman...doing-now.html

    Because companies have repeatedly shown that even if desperate people are willing to let themselves be exploited, the company doesn't need to exploit the shit outta them.

    Once more you're functionally blaming the wrong people.
    When someone says: "Slap me, please." I'm not going to be angry at the person that gave them a slap.

    It's as simple as that, really.
    - The One and Only, the Legendary, the Mighty - You might recognize me from the forum signatures of lesser mortals obsessed with me. -
    Vexing little man-babies and normies on the internet since before you were born.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Violence View Post
    When someone says: "Slap me, please." I'm not going to be angry at the person that gave them a slap.

    It's as simple as that, really.
    What does slapping have to do with this? Does one need to slap others in order to earn money to like, live?

    I mean, are you not angry that companies and those that run them are happy to exploit the fuck outta their workers for maximum profit?

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Violence View Post
    Oh, I wouldn't say it's the majority either, it's probably a minority, but still quite a bit more than what official numbers might indicate.

    What bothers me usually in these discussions is that some people have the tendency to pretend there aren't any people at all ever committing welfare fraud or... what for me was the most comical, the idea that the concept of a 'welfare queen' is some sort of 'racist myth' - while I wasn't even remotely considering race in the equation, but speaking entirely from a west-european perspective...

    I'm all for strong social welfare systems, but I also think there should be strong checks and balances to combat fraud. The only thing that sours my mouth whenever I say that is that I'm well aware that corporations get much more welfare hand-outs than any common person could ever spend in a multitude of lifetimes - and that there might indeed be systemic forms of exploitation and abuse that put common people at a heavy disadvantage in the labor market as opposed to the employers. But I'm also not entirely on board with pretending that all employers are evil or malicious. I mean... can you really blame them when there's hordes of employees throwing themselves at their feet willing to do anything for a poverty wage? Are they supposed to be saints and say to themselves: "Damn, making money out of this is wrong. I should pay them an honest wage instead and perhaps not turn a profit at all..."
    As edge said, if there is no evidence to support that claim of fraud, it probably ain't happening.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What does slapping have to do with this? Does one need to slap others in order to earn money to like, live?

    I mean, are you not angry that companies and those that run them are happy to exploit the fuck outta their workers for maximum profit?
    because its not explitation ?

    the times of slavery are long over - anyone can leave their work whenever they want and start their own business.

    nothing is stopping you from doing that when you are unhappy with your current work.

  10. #110
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    anyone can leave their work whenever they want and start their own business.
    Sure, Jan. Prove it.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    because its not explitation ?

    the times of slavery are long over - anyone can leave their work whenever they want and start their own business.

    nothing is stopping you from doing that when you are unhappy with your current work.
    By definition a business has to exploit it's employees on some level in order to function. It's the degree of exploitation that has gotten way out of hand.

    Also the bolded just reeks of naivete and lack of actual real-world experience.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Also the bolded just reeks of naivete and lack of actual real-world experience.
    Well, anyone -can- leave their work whenever they want.
    It's literally written so in the laws of pretty much every modern nation. Including the right to begin your own business.

    As compared say, the days where you didn't even have the right and would get whipped or beaten if you dared try.

    Everything that happens outside of when you -do- leave your job, is a consequence of liberty and freedoms that were given to people.
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    because its not explitation ?

    the times of slavery are long over - anyone can leave their work whenever they want and start their own business.

    nothing is stopping you from doing that when you are unhappy with your current work.
    I love how most of you @Pro-Violence, @Elegiac and some more can only have hyperbole or gross exageration.

    "Welfare queens" do exist. Are they a majority ? Absolutetly not. But they do exist, mostly in lower class of society. Do people want to work for poverty wage ? Yes, they do. Do they "really" want to work for poverty wage ? Nope, but they still do because sometimes, that's all they can have.

    As usually, on these boards, reality is grey and not black and white (pun intended).

    And yes, you can leave your job when you want, should you do that ? I think not. Starting its own business is not easy as it sounds.
    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-03-05 at 02:21 PM. Reason: Minor Trolling

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    because its not explitation ?
    the times of slavery are long over - anyone can leave their work whenever they want and start their own business.
    nothing is stopping you from doing that when you are unhappy with your current work.
    You can't be this clueless...not if you live here...or your one of those libertarians.
    You have to live elsewhere and benefit from a societal infrastructure that keeps you well when you're between jobs.
    Whatever. It's plain that you know nothing.

  15. #115
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I love how most of you @Pro-Violence, @Elegiac and some more can only have hyperbole or gross exageration.

    "Welfare queens" do exist. Are they a majority ? Absolutetly not. But they do exist, mostly in lower class of society. Do people want to work for poverty wage ? Yes, they do. Do they "really" want to work for poverty wage ? Nope, but they still do because sometimes, that's all they can have.
    This is hypocritical... calling welfare abuse or fraud, welfare queens... is hyperbole. If you consider that it’s aimed exclusively at black women, it’s downright racist.

    There are no people on welfare, driving around in Cadillacs, wearing mink coats. The term is completely antiquated, beyond racism. Who the fuck uses a Cadillac and mink coats, as a sign of wealth in 2020s?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    This is hypocritical... calling welfare abuse or fraud, welfare queens... is hyperbole. If you consider that it’s aimed exclusively at black women, it’s downright racist.

    There are no people on welfare, driving around in Cadillacs, wearing mink coats. The term is completely antiquated, beyond racism. Who the fuck uses a Cadillac and mink coats, as a sign of wealth in 2020s?
    Why do you bring black women in what I said ?

    There are people that live exclusively from social aid and do not want to get a job. Not sure if they drive big car or such, but they do still exist.

  17. #117
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Why do you bring black women in what I said ?
    Can you not discuss subjects you know nothing about? Why even open your mouth?

    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Can you not discuss subjects you know nothing about? Why even open your mouth?

    Where did I talk about black women ?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Why do you bring black women in what I said ?

    There are people that live exclusively from social aid and do not want to get a job. Not sure if they drive big car or such, but they do still exist.
    I fully agree that none of this is black or white, which is the main point I try to argue.

    There's all sorts of people. Some examples which come to mind for me relevant to this thread are:
    - People who receive unemployment welfare, but who secretly work 1 or more jobs on the side (tax free), very often these people are specialists in a field too (electricians, mechanics, engineers, etc.)
    - People who refuse to do any work at all and who live semi 'off the grid' (woodsmen (living of and in the woods) ... or more semi-job-ish: freelancing musicians, artists, animal breeders, ...)
    - People who line up on the market square on early mornings hoping that random strangers will pick them up in a van to make them do shitty shores for below minimum wage (I actually know a funny story about someone who hired half a dozen people like that to dig up his entire backyard because he was convinced there was a treasure hidden there somewhere)
    - People who work a real job or even own their own business, but who do below minimum wage jobs on the side (tax free), also again often specialists, because working illegally is more profitable than doing it legally (taxes)
    - People who pay their doctor a small fee to get sick notes / 'incapable of working' notes just so they can stay on health welfare
    - People who sell others copies of 'sollicitation letters' so they can pass the yearly social security check-ups whether or not they did enough effort trying to fnd a job or not
    - etc.


    Now which one is the most interesting to me is example #2: The people that said: 'fuck it' and did go do their own thing without ever working. Often times not even remotely depending on welfare either (although those are rare), but what it basically boils down to is that people in the west are expecting some kind of 'living standard' which they feel entirely entitled to. I'm not saying it's wrong to feel entitled to being able to afford the lifestyle of the atomic family, but nobody is forcing anyone to live that lifestyle either beyond societal pressure perhaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Can you not discuss subjects you know nothing about? Why even open your mouth?
    ... The USA isn't the center of the world. Just because some americans claim that she was the 'original welfare queen' does not mean it's true or that that is the specific origin of the word. Race has nothing to do with the subject, at all. No matter how you keep trying to shove it in there so you can go back to the lazy way of arguing that someone must somehow be a racist or something if they dare to question certain aspects of social welfare or if they dare insinuate that welfare fraud might exist on a certain level.
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  20. #120
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Where did I talk about black women ?
    When you defended the term “welfare queen”... wtf?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Violence View Post
    ... The USA isn't the center of the world.
    It’s an American term, discussing unions of American works... it would be the Dole Queen, but it would be tough to pull of... since... Only fools and horses...

    Edit: The normal term for welfare queen, without the racism, hyperbole or far right rhetoric, is “fraud”... just FYI... in a time where “you too” has turned into “u2”, ya’ll type “welfare queen”, instead of “fraud”... what’s up with that?
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-05 at 01:39 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

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