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  1. #141
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    My objection to this is the fact that it's incredibly difficult to deliver concise numbers about illegal activities like these
    Cool. Given you can't provide sufficient justification for the harm done to people who are using the system as intended by gatekeeping assistance, the argument should be disregarded.

    50% of me feels like: "My income tax is 50% because my country has extremely strong and generous welfare systems, and I know at least a few dozen people who have been intentionally exploiting the welfare system for decades..."
    No you don't. Conservatives frequently say this but the stories typically don't hold water when put under scrutiny, if they even bother sharing them.

    Nor are you thinking of the several times more people that would get assistance delayed or denied trying to punish your "friends". You aren't the arbiter of justice, sweaty.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No you don't. Conservatives frequently say this but the stories typically don't hold water when put under scrutiny, if they even bother sharing them.
    We'll have to agree to disagree, and that is fine.

    It doesn't even matter, I'm sure even you would be in favor of honesty and truthfulness and that it is a pretty vile thing to commit welfare fraud, because it basically does take away help and resources from those who could really use it and really do need it.

  3. #143
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree, and that is fine.
    So yeah, you can't actually provide any examples of what you're worried about that personally affect you, so you have to construct hypothetical scenarios in which you're aggrieved because your tax dollars "might" go to someone "undeserving".

    This is why we're skeptical whenever people claim welfare fraud is a significant problem. Because there's never any evidence presented besides "trust me" and "well there's no way to measure it" and other intellectually dishonest arguments of that sort.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-03-05 at 02:43 PM.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    So yeah, you can't actually provide any examples of what you're worried about that personally affect you, so you have to construct hypothetical scenarios in which you're aggrieved because your tax dollars "might" go to someone "undeserving".
    Pfff, nah you are probably right. Knowing how governments and politicians operate, the money probably would go into their own pockets if it wasn't being spent on others undeserving or undesirable.

  5. #145
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Pfff, nah you are probably right. Knowing how governments and politicians operate, the money probably would go into their own pockets if it wasn't being spent on others undeserving or undesirable.
    Which is an entirely different problem from welfare fraud or unionization. Once again you're taking curiously anti-worker stances for a "Pro-Violence" progressive.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  6. #146
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Well several points on that:

    1. What would happen if -everyone- in the labor force said: "Fuck you, I'm not doing the shitty job"? Which is basically something unions can help organize and what gives unions their power. But this also brings up the heated point of what happens when unions go on strike and they start blocking entrance to the factory for non-union employees or others who don't agree with the strike...

    2. Quality of Choice is relative - and it even smells a little bit of consumerism. The choice to live in accordance with the atomic family model is entirely up to each individual. Less so when we're literally talking about dying from starvation... but how realistic is that in a western nation anywhere, where there are a thousand and one alternatives to get free food if you're really in need.
    1. Brilliant you understand the concept of solidarity and why its so important.
    2. https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america

    Of course one not need die of starvation but still suffer from malnutrition. Additionally leaving ones job carries a number of consequences far beyond hunger. Since health insurance is tied to employment in the US you lose that as well. Misery, destitution, poverty all the consequences of not having employment. The choice is really a non choice. Again when the quality of choice is so poor you may as well get shot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post

    Everything that happens outside of when you -do- leave your job, is a consequence of liberty and freedoms that were given to people.
    Again, no lol. Those consequences are the reasons why you can't leave a job. You don't need a written law to make you dependent and unable to leave a job...
    If somebody is living pay check to pay check and barely making ends meet as is, can that person just up and leave their job because "LoL tHeY hAvE tHe FrEeDoM tO!"?

    This isn't a video game where you can just edit the options menu "give people freedom to leave their jobs". This is the real-world with real-world consequences and actual decision-making skills are required sorry, to include other factors than just if you are an actual slave or not lol.
    Last edited by matheney2k; 2021-03-05 at 04:13 PM.

  8. #148
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Your opinion is trash because unionization isn't a real option for everyone.

    Should all workers unionize? Yes.
    Can they without massive pushback from capital? Obviously not.
    If you want to enter the realm of pointless exercises and do something like rate an opinion you can and i can simply throw that back at you.

    Now however what you don't understand is our different understanding of worker rights and unions as you are American and i am European there's a vast difference between the both in how they are organized and structured. That's the reason why i also highlighted them being nation wide organized.

    Surely they can push back but yet the unions on European soil have a lot more teeth, true some companies did move out in part of that but long term is that a negative ? i beg to differ.
    “My philosophy is: It’s none of my business what people say of me and think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier.
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  9. #149
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    If you want to enter the realm of pointless exercises and do something like rate an opinion you can and i can simply throw that back at you.

    Now however what you don't understand is our different understanding of worker rights and unions as you are American and i am European there's a vast difference between the both in how they are organized and structured. That's the reason why i also highlighted them being nation wide organized.

    Surely they can push back but yet the unions on European soil have a lot more teeth, true some companies did move out in part of that but long term is that a negative ? i beg to differ.
    This isn't a thread about unionization in Europe, it's a thread on workers in an Amazon warehouse in the United States trying to unionize. My knowledge of union structure in Europe has nothing to do with you making a sweeping statement about workers being fools for not being in a union. I don't really give a shit if it's easier for Europeans to join a union. Good for you, I'm glad for EU workers. However, we're not there yet.
    There is a limit to the success of conservative populism and the exploitation of "little guy" or "silent majority" rhetoric, and it is very often reached because of the emaciated, corrupted personalities of the demagogues themselves.
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  10. #150
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    so you are gonna purposedly ignore huge amount of "forever unemployed living of social support programs " people in many western countries so it fits your narrative got it. and huge amount of immigration with sole purpose of living of such programs that those countries experience (it was one of main reasons Brexit happened - by hey lets ignore it sure why not)

    im sure people paying taxes who sponsor such living are ok with it too - that their taxes are wasted instead put into healthcare of education systems.

    yes i get it - it has nothing to do with this particular case. but its not some imaginary problem of Austrian school economics
    The legend of the welfare queen is just that. One woman gamed the system and suddenly Reagan propped her up as every single unemployed adult in the world. The reality is that living off of welfare is not possible, especially in the US.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Oh, I wouldn't say it's the majority either, it's probably a minority, but still quite a bit more than what official numbers might indicate.

    What bothers me usually in these discussions is that some people have the tendency to pretend there aren't any people at all ever committing welfare fraud or... what for me was the most comical, the idea that the concept of a 'welfare queen' is some sort of 'racist myth' - while I wasn't even remotely considering race in the equation, but speaking entirely from a west-european perspective...

    I'm all for strong social welfare systems, but I also think there should be strong checks and balances to combat fraud. The only thing that sours my mouth whenever I say that is that I'm well aware that corporations get much more welfare hand-outs than any common person could ever spend in a multitude of lifetimes - and that there might indeed be systemic forms of exploitation and abuse that put common people at a heavy disadvantage in the labor market as opposed to the employers. But I'm also not entirely on board with pretending that all employers are evil or malicious. I mean... can you really blame them when there's hordes of employees throwing themselves at their feet willing to do anything for a poverty wage? Are they supposed to be saints and say to themselves: "Damn, making money out of this is wrong. I should pay them an honest wage instead and perhaps not turn a profit at all..."
    1) There already are strong checks and balances in place to prevent welfare fraud. You could spend billions of dollars more and a couple of hundred people might get away with a couple of thousand dollars each. Boohoo, you just wasted money anyway.

    2) The welfare queen myth was started in the US. It was a racist dogwhistle against a very specific black woman, but was used as a bludgeon to rally whites against welfare by being told that blacks were sucking up the federal budget by buying lobster and wine with welfare money.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  11. #151
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    The welfare queen myth was started in the US. It was a racist dogwhistle against a very specific black woman, but was used as a bludgeon to rally whites against welfare by being told that blacks were sucking up the federal budget by buying lobster and wine with welfare money.
    The irony being, is that a lot of women and black people in general suffered a lot due to the strep type... while the woman who inspired the stereotype was convicted of major fraud and kidnapping, while also being speculated as being responsible for a murder. As in... she might be the only person that actually benefited from being associated with welfare queen... is that irony?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    1. Brilliant you understand the concept of solidarity and why its so important.
    2. https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america

    Of course one not need die of starvation but still suffer from malnutrition. Additionally leaving ones job carries a number of consequences far beyond hunger. Since health insurance is tied to employment in the US you lose that as well. Misery, destitution, poverty all the consequences of not having employment. The choice is really a non choice. Again when the quality of choice is so poor you may as well get shot.
    im sure that all those people who whine for higher minimum wage are perfect specialists in their field who wouldnt have problem to find new job in first place

    after all they must have a reason why they demand that higher wage.

    its not just because they think they deserve more. im sure of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Again, no lol. Those consequences are the reasons why you can't leave a job. You don't need a written law to make you dependent and unable to leave a job...
    If somebody is living pay check to pay check and barely making ends meet as is, can that person just up and leave their job because "LoL tHeY hAvE tHe FrEeDoM tO!"?

    This isn't a video game where you can just edit the options menu "give people freedom to leave their jobs". This is the real-world with real-world consequences and actual decision-making skills are required sorry, to include other factors than just if you are an actual slave or not lol.
    ofc they can .

    thats literaly the whole story of hundreds of milions of migrants all over the world.

    they come to new country , work hard in first jobs , learn language of that country , learn additional skills , get better job rinse and repeat.

    then they send their kids to schools of that country so they can land much better jobs as long as they are ambitious so they dont have to work as hard as their parents. those kids often become enginner/MS/lawyers etc - because they know how its to live in poverty.

    while at the same time natives of those ocuntries very often choose to just live of social support.

    the moral of this story is life is hard cruel and unfair - thats why you have to work hard all your life to achieve something

    not flip burgers/ stock shelves with bored face expression and whining why you wage and life sucks.

    the reason why Americans are outraged now about work conditions is because for the first time in last 200 years whole 2 generations after 1980 didnt have anyone" beneath "them . for centuries they had slaves/asians/eastern/southers europeans/mexicans imigrants doing those low paid jobs . now that big waves of immigrations are gone they suddenly discover that :

    a)there are no immigrants agreeing to work for any jobs aviable to hire so they cant just "become boss" and earn easily from heir slave wages
    b)only jobs aviable are those in already established companies . and creating new company usually means they have to work themselves and with their family instead just hire 20 mexicans to do all work while "white big boss" just observes how they work .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-03-06 at 08:40 AM.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    1) There already are strong checks and balances in place to prevent welfare fraud. You could spend billions of dollars more and a couple of hundred people might get away with a couple of thousand dollars each. Boohoo, you just wasted money anyway.
    Are there? I've honestly no clue, but in my own country for example back in second half of the 20th century there were almost none. Nowadays they're a lot stricter, but there is still a lot of shenanigans going on and possible. Nations that usually begin with 'strong social welfare nets' often have to deal with a lot of fraud and a lack of checks and balances at the very start.

    2) The welfare queen myth was started in the US. It was a racist dogwhistle against a very specific black woman, but was used as a bludgeon to rally whites against welfare by being told that blacks were sucking up the federal budget by buying lobster and wine with welfare money.
    Keyword: "was" - nowadays the meaning has changed and it shouldn't be used to bludgeon people with the accusation of racism either when the word is used. It's very endemic for americo-centrism to turn everything into a race issue. We're on international forums here, generally speaking when Commonwealth people use the word they're not even remotely considering race, so it's a bit tired to have 'american progressives' rushing to it.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I've honestly no clue
    I mean, you have the self-awareness to know you are clueless, yet it didn't deter you from talking about things you didn't know of. I guess your hate of employees and of the middle-lower classes superseded your rationality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Nations that usually begin with 'strong social welfare nets' often have to deal with a lot of fraud and a lack of checks and balances at the very start.
    This happens to literally every government in its infancy stages, so I am not sure why something that happens to everyone is somehow only a problem when it comes to welfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    It's very endemic for americo-centrism to turn everything into a race issue. We're on international forums here, generally speaking when Commonwealth people use the word they're not even remotely considering race, so it's a bit tired to have 'american progressives' rushing to it.
    Well, then you should probably educate yourself on the fact this is a thread about American worker rights, so obviously it's bound to be "americo-centric". If you want to talk about non-"Americo-centric" welfare, maybe start a new thread instead of appropriating this thread to whine about your dubious anecdotes?
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2021-03-06 at 09:13 AM.
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  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Workers and Management are not equals. Workers having a Union and able to make such tactics is simply leveling the negotiating power between two unequal parties.
    Why do they deserve to bargain on "more equal terms" though? They can be replaced easily, that's what got them here. Trying to force some artificial limitations so that's no longer the case is fighting against reality.

    Say someone broke their leg alone in the woods and a big strong person comes along. In this case, the big strong person holds all the bargaining power. They don't necessarily NEED anything or gain anything from helping the broken leg person. Conversely, the poor sap with the broken leg needs that strong person to even have a SHOT at surviving. Letting that strong person extract their full worth (or at least as much as they personally see fit.. who knows... maybe they just help out for free and don't demand anything...) is exactly how the negotiation should work.

    Unions are effectively trying to break the strong person's leg so they have to work together or are on "equal" terms, when the reality is they aren't.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Well, then you should probably educate yourself on the fact this is a thread about American worker rights
    It began as a thread about that, but on multiple pages it veered off into a general ideological discussion about welfare and welfare fraud. Which kinda points out the double underhandedness of trying to accuse people of racism in a discussion thread that isn't even remotely related to it.

    I've no clue what checks and balances exist in the USA on welfare though, as far as I understand the USA is very draconian in how they handle any such systems.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Why do they deserve to bargain on "more equal terms" though? They can be replaced easily, that's what got them here. Trying to force some artificial limitations so that's no longer the case is fighting against reality.

    Say someone broke their leg alone in the woods and a big strong person comes along. In this case, the big strong person holds all the bargaining power. They don't necessarily NEED anything or gain anything from helping the broken leg person. Conversely, the poor sap with the broken leg needs that strong person to even have a SHOT at surviving. Letting that strong person extract their full worth (or at least as much as they personally see fit.. who knows... maybe they just help out for free and don't demand anything...) is exactly how the negotiation should work.

    Unions are effectively trying to break the strong person's leg so they have to work together or are on "equal" terms, when the reality is they aren't.
    Here we have exhibit A of a conservative unironically trying to argue for slavery. That employers should be able to essentially decide the life and death of their employees.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    It began as a thread about that, but on multiple pages it veered off into a general ideological discussion about welfare and welfare fraud.
    Of which you were one of the main culprits of. "Other people did it too" isn't the compelling defense you think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Which kinda points out the double underhandedness of trying to accuse people of racism in a discussion thread that isn't even remotely related to it.
    Not really, it just means you are trying to change the context and derail the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I've no clue what checks and balances exist in the USA on welfare though, as far as I understand the USA is very draconian in how they handle any such systems.
    Mostly because welfare in the US is indefinitely stuck in its infancy stage compared to almost every other developed nation.
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Here we have exhibit A of a conservative unironically trying to argue for slavery. That employers should be able to essentially decide the life and death of their employees.
    Essentially and actually are two different things. Someone refusing to give food to a man who is near death due to starvation is "essentially" killing him. Taking a knife and stabbing him is ACTUALLY killing him. I'm not going down the rabbit hole farce of "is ignoring someone just as bad as actively hurting them?" line of debate. It's not, period, and I don't care what you think.

    Also, I'm just as liberal as I am conservative.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Why do they deserve to bargain on "more equal terms" though? They can be replaced easily, that's what got them here. Trying to force some artificial limitations so that's no longer the case is fighting against reality.
    Whether they deserve it is more of a moral and ethical question. And unless you want to make it illegal to unionise and restrict people's freedom then there is nothing that stops people form organizing themselves.

    Say someone broke their leg alone in the woods and a big strong person comes along. In this case, the big strong person holds all the bargaining power. They don't necessarily NEED anything or gain anything from helping the broken leg person. Conversely, the poor sap with the broken leg needs that strong person to even have a SHOT at surviving. Letting that strong person extract their full worth (or at least as much as they personally see fit.. who knows... maybe they just help out for free and don't demand anything...) is exactly how the negotiation should work.

    Unions are effectively trying to break the strong person's leg so they have to work together or are on "equal" terms, when the reality is they aren't.
    Another analogy could be that a king and his servants are walking in the woods. The king sits upon a chair that is held up by the servants. Suddenly one servant says he wants to be better compensated, after all the king would not be able to survive the woods on his own, and one by one the servants speak up and begin to form a group and desire for the same thing.

    The king argues that they shouldn't be allowed to do this and is effectively arguing for restricting people's freedom and liberties. In the end, the strong is whoever is strong in reality - not the idealized reality of the king. With no people working for him, he is king of nothing.
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  20. #160
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Also, I'm just as liberal as I am conservative.
    Can you explain how unions are breaking the strongest legs, as a liberal?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Whether they deserve it is more of a moral and ethical question. And unless you want to make it illegal to unionise and restrict people's freedom then there is nothing that stops people form organizing themselves.
    It’s not just those... Unless one believes in the trickle down theory or that employers are altruistic to not pay the least they can, it’s economically unsustainable.



    It’s a song about a coal miner and how the employer rushed to save coal miners after a collapse... just kidding it’s about them being saved by the guy who died in the mine. The coal Baron is not even mentioned in the song... because at that time, even conservatives didn’t act like employers had their best interest in mind... even when it came to death.
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-06 at 02:34 PM.
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