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  1. #121
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    The welfare queen myth was started in the US. It was a racist dogwhistle against a very specific black woman, but was used as a bludgeon to rally whites against welfare by being told that blacks were sucking up the federal budget by buying lobster and wine with welfare money.
    The irony being, is that a lot of women and black people in general suffered a lot due to the strep type... while the woman who inspired the stereotype was convicted of major fraud and kidnapping, while also being speculated as being responsible for a murder. As in... she might be the only person that actually benefited from being associated with welfare queen... is that irony?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    1. Brilliant you understand the concept of solidarity and why its so important.
    2. https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america

    Of course one not need die of starvation but still suffer from malnutrition. Additionally leaving ones job carries a number of consequences far beyond hunger. Since health insurance is tied to employment in the US you lose that as well. Misery, destitution, poverty all the consequences of not having employment. The choice is really a non choice. Again when the quality of choice is so poor you may as well get shot.
    im sure that all those people who whine for higher minimum wage are perfect specialists in their field who wouldnt have problem to find new job in first place

    after all they must have a reason why they demand that higher wage.

    its not just because they think they deserve more. im sure of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Again, no lol. Those consequences are the reasons why you can't leave a job. You don't need a written law to make you dependent and unable to leave a job...
    If somebody is living pay check to pay check and barely making ends meet as is, can that person just up and leave their job because "LoL tHeY hAvE tHe FrEeDoM tO!"?

    This isn't a video game where you can just edit the options menu "give people freedom to leave their jobs". This is the real-world with real-world consequences and actual decision-making skills are required sorry, to include other factors than just if you are an actual slave or not lol.
    ofc they can .

    thats literaly the whole story of hundreds of milions of migrants all over the world.

    they come to new country , work hard in first jobs , learn language of that country , learn additional skills , get better job rinse and repeat.

    then they send their kids to schools of that country so they can land much better jobs as long as they are ambitious so they dont have to work as hard as their parents. those kids often become enginner/MS/lawyers etc - because they know how its to live in poverty.

    while at the same time natives of those ocuntries very often choose to just live of social support.

    the moral of this story is life is hard cruel and unfair - thats why you have to work hard all your life to achieve something

    not flip burgers/ stock shelves with bored face expression and whining why you wage and life sucks.

    the reason why Americans are outraged now about work conditions is because for the first time in last 200 years whole 2 generations after 1980 didnt have anyone" beneath "them . for centuries they had slaves/asians/eastern/southers europeans/mexicans imigrants doing those low paid jobs . now that big waves of immigrations are gone they suddenly discover that :

    a)there are no immigrants agreeing to work for any jobs aviable to hire so they cant just "become boss" and earn easily from heir slave wages
    b)only jobs aviable are those in already established companies . and creating new company usually means they have to work themselves and with their family instead just hire 20 mexicans to do all work while "white big boss" just observes how they work .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-03-06 at 08:40 AM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I've honestly no clue
    I mean, you have the self-awareness to know you are clueless, yet it didn't deter you from talking about things you didn't know of. I guess your hate of employees and of the middle-lower classes superseded your rationality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Nations that usually begin with 'strong social welfare nets' often have to deal with a lot of fraud and a lack of checks and balances at the very start.
    This happens to literally every government in its infancy stages, so I am not sure why something that happens to everyone is somehow only a problem when it comes to welfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    It's very endemic for americo-centrism to turn everything into a race issue. We're on international forums here, generally speaking when Commonwealth people use the word they're not even remotely considering race, so it's a bit tired to have 'american progressives' rushing to it.
    Well, then you should probably educate yourself on the fact this is a thread about American worker rights, so obviously it's bound to be "americo-centric". If you want to talk about non-"Americo-centric" welfare, maybe start a new thread instead of appropriating this thread to whine about your dubious anecdotes?
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2021-03-06 at 09:13 AM.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Workers and Management are not equals. Workers having a Union and able to make such tactics is simply leveling the negotiating power between two unequal parties.
    Why do they deserve to bargain on "more equal terms" though? They can be replaced easily, that's what got them here. Trying to force some artificial limitations so that's no longer the case is fighting against reality.

    Say someone broke their leg alone in the woods and a big strong person comes along. In this case, the big strong person holds all the bargaining power. They don't necessarily NEED anything or gain anything from helping the broken leg person. Conversely, the poor sap with the broken leg needs that strong person to even have a SHOT at surviving. Letting that strong person extract their full worth (or at least as much as they personally see fit.. who knows... maybe they just help out for free and don't demand anything...) is exactly how the negotiation should work.

    Unions are effectively trying to break the strong person's leg so they have to work together or are on "equal" terms, when the reality is they aren't.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Why do they deserve to bargain on "more equal terms" though? They can be replaced easily, that's what got them here. Trying to force some artificial limitations so that's no longer the case is fighting against reality.

    Say someone broke their leg alone in the woods and a big strong person comes along. In this case, the big strong person holds all the bargaining power. They don't necessarily NEED anything or gain anything from helping the broken leg person. Conversely, the poor sap with the broken leg needs that strong person to even have a SHOT at surviving. Letting that strong person extract their full worth (or at least as much as they personally see fit.. who knows... maybe they just help out for free and don't demand anything...) is exactly how the negotiation should work.

    Unions are effectively trying to break the strong person's leg so they have to work together or are on "equal" terms, when the reality is they aren't.
    Here we have exhibit A of a conservative unironically trying to argue for slavery. That employers should be able to essentially decide the life and death of their employees.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    It began as a thread about that, but on multiple pages it veered off into a general ideological discussion about welfare and welfare fraud.
    Of which you were one of the main culprits of. "Other people did it too" isn't the compelling defense you think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Which kinda points out the double underhandedness of trying to accuse people of racism in a discussion thread that isn't even remotely related to it.
    Not really, it just means you are trying to change the context and derail the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I've no clue what checks and balances exist in the USA on welfare though, as far as I understand the USA is very draconian in how they handle any such systems.
    Mostly because welfare in the US is indefinitely stuck in its infancy stage compared to almost every other developed nation.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Here we have exhibit A of a conservative unironically trying to argue for slavery. That employers should be able to essentially decide the life and death of their employees.
    Essentially and actually are two different things. Someone refusing to give food to a man who is near death due to starvation is "essentially" killing him. Taking a knife and stabbing him is ACTUALLY killing him. I'm not going down the rabbit hole farce of "is ignoring someone just as bad as actively hurting them?" line of debate. It's not, period, and I don't care what you think.

    Also, I'm just as liberal as I am conservative.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Why do they deserve to bargain on "more equal terms" though? They can be replaced easily, that's what got them here. Trying to force some artificial limitations so that's no longer the case is fighting against reality.
    Whether they deserve it is more of a moral and ethical question. And unless you want to make it illegal to unionise and restrict people's freedom then there is nothing that stops people form organizing themselves.

    Say someone broke their leg alone in the woods and a big strong person comes along. In this case, the big strong person holds all the bargaining power. They don't necessarily NEED anything or gain anything from helping the broken leg person. Conversely, the poor sap with the broken leg needs that strong person to even have a SHOT at surviving. Letting that strong person extract their full worth (or at least as much as they personally see fit.. who knows... maybe they just help out for free and don't demand anything...) is exactly how the negotiation should work.

    Unions are effectively trying to break the strong person's leg so they have to work together or are on "equal" terms, when the reality is they aren't.
    Another analogy could be that a king and his servants are walking in the woods. The king sits upon a chair that is held up by the servants. Suddenly one servant says he wants to be better compensated, after all the king would not be able to survive the woods on his own, and one by one the servants speak up and begin to form a group and desire for the same thing.

    The king argues that they shouldn't be allowed to do this and is effectively arguing for restricting people's freedom and liberties. In the end, the strong is whoever is strong in reality - not the idealized reality of the king. With no people working for him, he is king of nothing.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  8. #128
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Also, I'm just as liberal as I am conservative.
    Can you explain how unions are breaking the strongest legs, as a liberal?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Whether they deserve it is more of a moral and ethical question. And unless you want to make it illegal to unionise and restrict people's freedom then there is nothing that stops people form organizing themselves.
    It’s not just those... Unless one believes in the trickle down theory or that employers are altruistic to not pay the least they can, it’s economically unsustainable.



    It’s a song about a coal miner and how the employer rushed to save coal miners after a collapse... just kidding it’s about them being saved by the guy who died in the mine. The coal Baron is not even mentioned in the song... because at that time, even conservatives didn’t act like employers had their best interest in mind... even when it came to death.
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-06 at 02:34 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Essentially and actually are two different things..
    Not really, the entire point is that you are advocating for what is slavery in all but name, regardless of whatever stupid unrelated example you choose to come up with to advocate for slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    It's not, period, and I don't care what you think.
    We already knew you don't care if your actions harm others. Don't need to repeat it in every thread you go to.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2021-03-06 at 02:48 PM.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Keyword: "was" - nowadays the meaning has changed and it shouldn't be used to bludgeon people with the accusation of racism either when the word is used. It's very endemic for americo-centrism to turn everything into a race issue. We're on international forums here, generally speaking when Commonwealth people use the word they're not even remotely considering race, so it's a bit tired to have 'american progressives' rushing to it.
    Speaking from personal experience, it still has racial overtones.

    The luxury of being a white guy, you get to hear other white people speak more frankly than than if they’re around minorities.

    And while they aren’t OPENLY using for racist overtones and are more willing to apply it to others, it is very much directed in a very racial way and from people who put feelings before facts and will get all butt hurt if you proven them wrong.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  11. #131
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Why do they deserve to bargain on "more equal terms" though?
    Why should one side be allowed to legally forbid the other side from bargaining on equal terms? I mean? Why then shouldn't the Union be allowed since the only thing stopping its existence and protecting these people from an angry mob is the violence of the State? So as a matter of fact these "Strong men" are utterly dependent on big daddy government to save their bratty ass from the consequences of what utterly terrible people they are by keeping the masses at bay.

    The lack of equality is simply because one is the bratty sub of the State.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    It can’t exist outside US... because, they don’t consider welfare to be an affront.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    This is absurdly incorrect.
    Actually here in Germany welfare is a citizen right that comes directly from the first article of our Basic Law: "Human dignity shall be inviolable".

    Btw, personally I think our welfare doesn't even satisfy that article since it can be cut low under certain circumstances. In my opinion we should have Universal Basic Income if we actually mean the dignity thing.
    Last edited by Twdft; 2021-03-06 at 04:42 PM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Why should one side be allowed to legally forbid the other side from bargaining on equal terms? I mean? Why then shouldn't the Union be allowed since the only thing stopping its existence and protecting these people from an angry mob is the violence of the State?
    Unions should be allowed to exist, but people should be allowed to walk right past their picket line or not be a part of it if they so choose as an individual, which would severely or entirely cripple unions as they currently exist.

    So as a matter of fact these "Strong men" are utterly dependent on big daddy government to save their bratty ass from the consequences of what utterly terrible people they are by keeping the masses at bay.

    The lack of equality is simply because one is the bratty sub of the State.
    If you're fine with violence as a bargaining tool then we have nothing else to talk about. People can't just lash out and take what they want or need by force. Again, if you think differently and are okay with that, don't bother replying. Also where do you live so I can come seize some stuff I need from you?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    If you're fine with violence as a bargaining tool then we have nothing else to talk about. People can't just lash out and take what they want or need by force. Again, if you think differently and are okay with that, don't bother replying. Also where do you live so I can come seize some stuff I need from you?
    Big business is fine with violence and coercion.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Whether they deserve it is more of a moral and ethical question. And unless you want to make it illegal to unionise and restrict people's freedom then there is nothing that stops people form organizing themselves.
    Unionizing is fine. I'm not advocating for it to not exist. We'd have to go further into the weeds, but ultimately unions shouldn't be allowed to restrict the freedoms of individuals or companies either. Meaning anyone that was fine not being part of the union would be free to stay that way and the company would be free to hire them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Big business is fine with violence and coercion.
    K, but that's not the issue we're talking about here right? I didn't say I'm fine with everything big businesses do.

  16. #136
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    ultimately unions shouldn't be allowed to restrict the freedoms of individuals or companies either.
    Why, though?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Why, though?
    Because my core belief is that freedom is the paramount human right and should be as unrestricted as humanly possible (just short of allowing violence/murder/theft/whatever).

  18. #138
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Because my core belief is that freedom is the paramount human right and should be as unrestricted as humanly possible (just short of allowing violence/murder/theft/whatever).
    Okay, but assuming nobody besides you cares about your opinion - how's that remotely connected to reality?

    Flat Earth is also "a core belief" for a lot of people, doesn't mean we need to regard it as anything but bullshit. Rofl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  19. #139
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Unions should be allowed to exist, but people should be allowed to walk right past their picket line or not be a part of it if they so choose as an individual, which would severely or entirely cripple unions as they currently exist.

    If you're fine with violence as a bargaining tool then we have nothing else to talk about. People can't just lash out and take what they want or need by force. Again, if you think differently and are okay with that, don't bother replying. Also where do you live so I can come seize some stuff I need from you?
    Again, you want the State to protect these allegedly "Strong Individuals", so, Strong in the sense of it takes an army and police force to protect their wicked deeds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Again, you want the State to protect these allegedly "Strong Individuals", so, Strong in the sense of it takes an army and police force to protect their wicked deeds.
    Are you so sure it's not the other way around, too? Those big armies aren't stopping these corporations from amassing their own feudal forces and ACTUALLY forcefully subjugating the weak as actual slaves?

    The idea is no one has that type of "tool" in their tool box. It's literally an illegal form of play.

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