5,800 Workers Voting to Unionize Their Amazon Facility

[tehdang]

A union lost another vote to unionize, eh?

Better luck next time. Enjoy Democracy in action.

[Felya]

So, the definition of a good union is in the eye of the beholder. That being the case, I would agree that no one would object to a good union, but few would agree on what makes one.

Jusus fucking Christ... a Union that tells you goals, but then does the contradicting... is bad. A Union that breaks the law... is bad. A Union that just doesn’t do anything... is bad.

If you can’t think of an objective measure for a governing body to be... uhm... bad... I have nothing for you... Paris Hilton 2024... Make America Hot Again...

[Kellhound]

Jusus fucking Christ... a Union that tells you goals, but then does the contradicting... is bad. A Union that breaks the law... is bad. A Union that just doesn’t do anything... is bad.

If you can’t think of an objective measure for a governing body to be... uhm... bad... I have nothing for you... Paris Hilton 2024... Make America Hot Again...

Defining anything objectively is only possible when there is no subjectivity in the equation. If I want my union to do any of they above and they do, then I may consider them a good union, no?

[Shadowferal]

If you can’t think of an objective measure for a governing body to be... uhm... bad... I have nothing for you... Paris Hilton 2024... Make America Hot Again...

Paris Hilton? Is there going to be a primary? I'm looking for options here because she just doesn't do it for me... She's not even spank material...

[Felya]

Defining anything objectively is only possible when there is no subjectivity in the equation. If I want my union to do any of they above and they do, then I may consider them a good union, no?

Yeah, you can say 5+5=20... it doesn’t change that they are objectively bad things... it just means I need to use simpler language.

Paris Hilton? Is there going to be a primary? I'm looking for options here because she just doesn't do it for me... She's not even spank material...

I’ve been saying it for 5 years and honestly... I don’t remember the justification...

[Kellhound]

Yeah, you can say 5+5=20... it doesn’t change that they are objectively bad things... it just means I need to use simpler language.



I’ve been saying it for 5 years and honestly... I don’t remember the justification...

So you cannot see a time when a union breaking the law is not something you would disagree with?

[Slant]

What defines a good union vs a bad one?

So, a union that can actually enforce demands is a good one. The mafia type of union? Not a good one. A union of 3 million members spanning the entire industry? Good. A union of 20 people in the cantina, not so good.

Just to give you an idea what I'm talking about: Ver.di the biggest German union taking care of the service industry sector, they are rumored to have enough cash stashed away to be able to feed their entire workforce for 1.5 years in a general strike. Like all of the members. They could legit shut Germany down for 1.5 years completely. That's a good union.

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Yet you must start somewhere... and America has weak union laws... filibuster historically was used primarily to block civil rights and secondly to block labour advancements.

Yeah, nobody will ever give people labor rights out of the goodness of their hearts. The reason why Europe has better union laws is because workers enforced that.

[Kellhound]

So, a union that can actually enforce demands is a good one. The mafia type of union? Not a good one. A union of 3 million members spanning the entire industry? Good. A union of 20 people in the cantina, not so good.

Just to give you an idea what I'm talking about: Ver.di the biggest German union taking care of the service industry sector, they are rumored to have enough cash stashed away to be able to feed their entire workforce for 1.5 years in a general strike. Like all of the members. They could legit shut Germany down for 1.5 years completely. That's a good union.

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Yeah, nobody will ever give people labor rights out of the goodness of their hearts. The reason why Europe has better union laws is because workers enforced that.

So, no objective definition of good v bad.

[Krakan]

What is the point of threatening to unionize if there are quadruple the work force already looking to undercut your wage waiting?

I can't imagine amazon has many skilled workers.

[Slant]

So, no objective definition of good v bad.

Are you looking for excuses to dismiss the entire concept? Because that's a pretty dumb argument you have right there. The quality of a union is determined by the member density of the union. The German judiciary considers a union "adequately strong" if it can impose actions during labor disputes. With actions we're talking strikes, temporary shut downs of production plants, those sort of things.

Other than that, I'm not going to do the English teacher thing. Look up good and bad in your dictionary.

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What is the point of threatening to unionize if there are quadruple the work force already looking to undercut your wage waiting?

I can't imagine amazon has many skilled workers.

The trick is that you keep unionising, anyone who joins the Amazon force is offered membership in that union, at some point Amazon will have to talk to the union and the longer Amazon drags it out, the more powerful that union gets.

And yes, Amazon would have to seriously suffer. The point is not to get at Amazon, the point is to show the entire industry what would happen if you fuck with the union.

Now, and this is why it doesn't work in the US, at this point typically corrupt fucks and/or the Mafia step in and say "Wow, extortion at an industrial level, awesome, I'm going to take over right here... and now you pay me. Thank you!" and Americans give up on the concept.

[SirBeef]

I don't understand cause these huge companies could always contract with big chains to allow access to their bathrooms for a monthly fee. Like Exxon gas stations for example. They have to be getting gas from somewhere.

Seems like they could find an easy solution that will cost some bucks but it would be a drop in the bucket.

Missing the point. It is more convenient to just piss in a bottle than go out of your way, in many cases, or take the time to stop. That is why people do it. Not becasue they are forced to. Having a contract with a chain of gas stations won't change that.

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I never said bad stuff doesn't happen either hence why I said all "companies have warts".

Nobody at Amazon was forced to use piss bottles, you are right. The drivers simply made due when there wasn't a restroom available on their route. That isn't exploiting the worker. That is bad logistics planning which they are rectifying. Let's not forget the one guy the far left media latched onto who claimed he was fired for his coronavirus walkout only to find out he was legit fired for violating social distancing by going into work despite having been told to stay home after testing positive and getting others sick.

I will say that it is a product of bad mangers and attributing it to a specific part of the country is irresponsible broad brushing because you will likely find examples everywhere. The comnpany I work for has stores, such as the one I work for, who are considered to be really good to work at and others who all you hear about is complaints. People want to blame the company when it is the bad managers who are responsible for it and wonder of all wonders when those managers are weeded out that those stores become better places to work.

I agree with you 100%. But media doesn't care about accuracy and the facts you present when it gets in he way of their agenda and neither does the far left echo chamber here.

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Don't believe the union propaganda. And by the way, you cannot get fired for voting to unionize. That is illegal.

The one picker story may have merit about being forced.They were basically told to hold it in or be fired for missing their rate. However I'd bet this is a their direct manager issue not a cultural issue. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the GM of that location found out an employee was told to do something like that, that manager would be fired.

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A union lost another vote to unionize, eh?

Better luck next time. Enjoy Democracy in action.

In Alabama, where the employer used daily propaganda and threatening actions to make sure it didn't succeed. Shocker.

[Krakan]

Are you looking for excuses to dismiss the entire concept? Because that's a pretty dumb argument you have right there. The quality of a union is determined by the member density of the union. The German judiciary considers a union "adequately strong" if it can impose actions during labor disputes. With actions we're talking strikes, temporary shut downs of production plants, those sort of things.

Other than that, I'm not going to do the English teacher thing. Look up good and bad in your dictionary.

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The trick is that you keep unionising, anyone who joins the Amazon force is offered membership in that union, at some point Amazon will have to talk to the union and the longer Amazon drags it out, the more powerful that union gets.

And yes, Amazon would have to seriously suffer. The point is not to get at Amazon, the point is to show the entire industry what would happen if you fuck with the union.

Now, and this is why it doesn't work in the US, at this point typically corrupt fucks and/or the Mafia step in and say "Wow, extortion at an industrial level, awesome, I'm going to take over right here... and now you pay me. Thank you!" and Americans give up on the concept.

I just don't see that as possible over the past few decades the states have absolutely flooded the unskilled labor pool. I can't see how any union without skilled labor can servive. It's why I expect the minimum wage to decrease not increase in time.

[Howel]

I just don't see that as possible over the past few decades the states have absolutely flooded the unskilled labor pool. I can't see how any union without skilled labor can servive. It's why I expect the minimum wage to decrease not increase in time.

A union isn't predicated on having skilled labourers. There are plenty of unions that protect fields that have high percentages of unskilled labourers all over the place.

[Edge-]

What is the point of threatening to unionize if there are quadruple the work force already looking to undercut your wage waiting?

Welcome to one of the literal points of unions existing, my bro.

[Muzjhath]

I just don't see that as possible over the past few decades the states have absolutely flooded the unskilled labor pool. I can't see how any union without skilled labor can servive. It's why I expect the minimum wage to decrease not increase in time.

Why can't a union be "unskilled"? Janitorial and Cleaning services are unionized in Sweden.
As is McDonalds.

[Slant]

I just don't see that as possible over the past few decades the states have absolutely flooded the unskilled labor pool. I can't see how any union without skilled labor can servive. It's why I expect the minimum wage to decrease not increase in time.

I never said it was easy to put into practice. But it needs to be done if the people in the US want to keep even the slightest resemblance of control. Let's be honest, the way things are going the US mega corps are absolutely happy to exploit the fuck out of the workers. That Amazon bottle thing? The only reason, the ONLY reason someone in the PR department thought it necessary to even comment on that is the public shitstorm. And the practical result? A lot of meetings in which it will be decided that the drivers have to get rid of their bottles before they get into the station. Breaks? Fuck no, that's not what Amazon understood this shitstorm to be about. Their policy is no bottles back into the station (if anyone asks, that's so they can say they never knew about problems).

It's funny, but you can play this game for yourself.

"Hey Amazon, we notice people are peeing in bottles and you must have known because those bottles showed up in the station."

Everyone's understanding: Oh, fuck, their drivers don't even have the time to find a restroom and go for a loo? Amazon you should change that!
What Amazon understands: Ok, so if we don't see those bottles, we officially don't know what they do during their drive so that'll solve the liability problem for us!

Result: Not only don't the drivers not have time to find a loo, now they have to spend the time they don't have to find a place to get rid of any (!) beverage they may have in their car, possibly there might be a ban on bottles altogether.

Modern slavery, that's what this is. The only reason why you can't call this actual slavery is because everyone has the ability to quit the job. Because that is totally not exploitation. It's all voluntary, innit? Fuck that. Fuck the corps. Get unionised, fuck those corps up. If they go bust, so fucking be it. There will be other companies swarming the market place in no time. There's dozens of companies that want to be the next Amazon.

And that is why unions exist. It doesn't require you to be a skilled worker. It just requires you to be a worker at a place that is unionised. The more the merrier. When you can shut down a plant by telling your workers not to show up for work, that's hurting companies. Just the threat of that is going to get any company's executive board to the negotiating table. And that is the place where you don't get PR bullshit fed, that's where union contracts are signed that are legally binding for courts to use to slap hefty contract fines on the company and have damages be paid to workers. That's how you do it. The problem in the US is that the labor protection is so eroded and disassembled, it's hard to get the initial push without Amazon literally firing you instantly they hear you're thinking about a union. The only solution to this is to somehow form it fast, across the entire company, including all plants... and then insantly calling a general strike just to make a point, get Amazon to the table and have them agree to labor protection policies, recognise the union and the right to be in the union, give people protection from being fired if they join the union etc.

And the next step is to force politics into fixing the bullshit labor protection the US has. That's what you use general strikes for. Threaten to strike everything, every industry. Start by disrupting one industry just for one day, to give the powers that be a taste of what it means if everything is striked. That'll get things going.

Sounds crazy? France does this sort of thing on a regular basis, so does Italy. Germany does this every time the union contract is about to run out and renegotiated for the next four years or so. These framework union contracts are what are largely responsible for wages to keep up with inflation across entire industries.

[Krakan]

Why can't a union be "unskilled"? Janitorial and Cleaning services are unionized in Sweden.
As is McDonalds.

Comes down to how replaceable you are. If its beyond easy to hire someone else you don't have much power.

[Muzjhath]

Comes down to how replaceable you are. If its beyond easy to hire someone else you don't have much power.

Not if everyone is in the Union, and anyone you replace will more than likely also be in the union.

[Krakan]

Not if everyone is in the Union, and anyone you replace will more than likely also be in the union.

I don't think the unemployed are going to be a part of a union...for this idea to work the working poor would need to be less...well poor.

[Masark]

Not if everyone is in the Union, and anyone you replace will more than likely also be in the union.

That's what the Pinkerton thugs are for.